+sramirez2008 Posted January 2, 2022 Share Posted January 2, 2022 2 hours ago, DrVenkman said: Holy crap. I was wearing headphones when I listened to those - instant nostalgia! Right back to 1980-something and playing a real Defender cab as a teenager. ? This? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+DrVenkman Posted January 2, 2022 Share Posted January 2, 2022 12 minutes ago, RevEng said: Yep, it's arcade perfect. I really need to get with my buddy who has all the woodworking tools and build myself a MAME cab - he's also an audio nerd (shocker!) so if I do it, it'll end up with a big honking subwoofer and set of mid-ranges and tweeters, all powered by a dedicated audio amp. Defender will sound gut-rumbling. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PacManPlus Posted January 2, 2022 Author Share Posted January 2, 2022 Hey Guys! Thank you for the comments: On 12/31/2021 at 11:04 AM, Goochman said: Yak visits here sometimes - wonder if he has some ideas or could pass a question to Jarvis for you? @Yak was on last week; hopefully he'll be able to help. Thank you. On 1/1/2022 at 1:11 AM, Inky said: Let me see if I can drum up his contact info. I used to have it. Awesome! I would really appreciate it! Thank you both, @Goochman and @Inky! 19 hours ago, ZylonBane said: Ahem... https://github.com/mwenge/defender/tree/master/src So are you planning on replicating the original's monophonic sound? Going monophonic might allow richer sound effects by using both TIA channels to construct each sound. @ZylonBane, I plan on trying to get this as close to the Arcade version as possible, as I always do. They have a good system of what sounds 'override' a currently playing sound... I think the Pokey is almost mandatory for this one. 15 hours ago, RevEng said: Speaking of Defender sound, I'll just leave this here... http://www.dl.unospace.net/defender_sound/ @RevEng Hoy Crap! That sounds identical to the arcade! What chip was that done with? On 12/31/2021 at 2:25 PM, Synthpopalooza said: Out of curiosity, will sounds be done using POKEY or TIA? Got a few ideas on how to get that opening rumble filter sweep in POKEY @Synthpopalooza I have a feeling this one is going to Require a Pokey... Depending on the answer just above this one. Thanks guys! Bob 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Synthpopalooza Posted January 2, 2022 Share Posted January 2, 2022 Well if needed, give me a holler. I have the opening bass sweep finished already. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RevEng Posted January 2, 2022 Share Posted January 2, 2022 20 minutes ago, PacManPlus said: @RevEng Hoy Crap! That sounds identical to the arcade! What chip was that done with? Pretty sure it's just a high level simulation of the Williams sound code. Defender, Robotron, and Joust all use the same sound hardware, which is pretty much just a 6800 CPU connected to an 8-bit DAC. (more details here) Their sound algorithm (which is in the repo ZylonBane linked) is called with certain parameters to create all of the sounds. If you take a look at that interactive sound simulation I linked earlier, you can import/export, which I believe just lists the same parameters. It would be a bigger lift, but technically the same algorithm could be made to run directly on hokey. Not sure how accurate it is, but there's a higher level reimplementation of the sound code here. (he's called it out as Robotron, but I'm pretty sure it's the same algorithm in Defender, just the sounds are using different parameters.) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+DrVenkman Posted January 2, 2022 Share Posted January 2, 2022 7 minutes ago, Synthpopalooza said: Well if needed, give me a holler. I have the opening bass sweep finished already. Maybe send some test files to @batari too, once you're happy with them. It would be *great* if this could be a HOKEY cart from the Store. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+sramirez2008 Posted January 2, 2022 Share Posted January 2, 2022 57 minutes ago, DrVenkman said: It would be *great* if this could be a HOKEY cart from the Store. Yes!!! 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrianC Posted January 3, 2022 Share Posted January 3, 2022 5 hours ago, RevEng said: Pretty sure it's just a high level simulation of the Williams sound code. Defender, Robotron, and Joust all use the same sound hardware, which is pretty much just a 6800 CPU connected to an 8-bit DAC. (more details here) Their sound algorithm (which is in the repo ZylonBane linked) is called with certain parameters to create all of the sounds. If you take a look at that interactive sound simulation I linked earlier, you can import/export, which I believe just lists the same parameters. It would be a bigger lift, but technically the same algorithm could be made to run directly on hokey. Not sure how accurate it is, but there's a higher level reimplementation of the sound code here. (he's called it out as Robotron, but I'm pretty sure it's the same algorithm in Defender, just the sounds are using different parameters.) I think the same sound hardware was also used for some Williams pinball machines. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZylonBane Posted January 3, 2022 Share Posted January 3, 2022 5 hours ago, PacManPlus said: I think the Pokey is almost mandatory for this one. Why do you say that? Since Defender only ever plays literally one sound at a time, and the sounds are all just various white noise effects and abstract bleeps, I'd think TIA would be up to it. The 2600 version of Defender II sounded pretty decent, though certainly with room for improvement. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Yurkie Posted January 3, 2022 Share Posted January 3, 2022 or add a mini Defender sound board.? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinks Posted January 3, 2022 Share Posted January 3, 2022 23 hours ago, DrVenkman said: Holy crap. I was wearing headphones when I listened to those - instant nostalgia! Right back to 1980-something and playing a real Defender cab as a teenager. ? Must have to use a "computer" to listen Never worked on my phone.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+DrVenkman Posted January 3, 2022 Share Posted January 3, 2022 37 minutes ago, Jinks said: Must have to use a "computer" to listen Never worked on my phone.. Maybe you need to upgrade your “phone” … worked fine on mine. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zonie Posted January 3, 2022 Share Posted January 3, 2022 Wow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
groundtrooper Posted January 3, 2022 Share Posted January 3, 2022 Same. Worked fine on my 4 generation old iPhone 8. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PacManPlus Posted January 3, 2022 Author Share Posted January 3, 2022 11 hours ago, ZylonBane said: Why do you say that? Since Defender only ever plays literally one sound at a time, and the sounds are all just various white noise effects and abstract bleeps, I'd think TIA would be up to it. The 2600 version of Defender II sounded pretty decent, though certainly with room for improvement. Some of the sounds almost have a 'speaking' tone to them; like the 'beginning game' sound, or the 'humanoid abduction' sound, something I would think would be difficult with the TIA. However, it is true that I thought we would never get close to sounds from Pac-Man/Ms. Pac-Man with the TIA... But I found that doing the sounds one frame at a time in the "Pac-Man Collection 40th" edition, we got closer than we could ever imagined. (Thanks to @DINTAR816 in his 2600 Pac-Man for providing proof that it was possible) Also, I trust your instincts. If you believe that we can get as close with TIA for Defender as I did with PMC-40th, it's definitely worth a try. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZylonBane Posted January 3, 2022 Share Posted January 3, 2022 I'd say the biggest challenge with authentic-sounding Defender FX is that many of the effects use fast pitch glides. When you try to reproduce those at only 60Hz, they come across very "bloopy". The Atari 8-bit and 7800 versions of Robotron demonstrate this problem. But even updating every scan line, the crap frequency resolution of TIA might mean that it's impossible for those glides to sound right. So... maybe a need for POKEY after all, just for the frequency resolution? Or maybe not. If you dedicated both audio channels to each sound effect, and updated multiple times per frame, you could probably get some novel sounds out of TIA. Maybe use some tremolo to fake the missing frequency res. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Pat Brady Posted January 3, 2022 Share Posted January 3, 2022 1 hour ago, ZylonBane said: I'd say the biggest challenge with authentic-sounding Defender FX is that many of the effects use fast pitch glides. When you try to reproduce those at only 60Hz, they come across very "bloopy". The Atari 8-bit and 7800 versions of Robotron demonstrate this problem. But even updating every scan line, the crap frequency resolution of TIA might mean that it's impossible for those glides to sound right. So... maybe a need for POKEY after all, just for the frequency resolution? Or maybe not. If you dedicated both audio channels to each sound effect, and updated multiple times per frame, you could probably get some novel sounds out of TIA. Maybe use some tremolo to fake the missing frequency res. Updating every scan line would be way too fast for a frequency sweep (and is tough to do on the 7800 since you don't know when MARIA is doing DMA). With 20 lines of VBLANK and 8-line zones, 600 Hz seems like the upper limit. But I'm pretty sure TIA at 60 Hz can at least most of Defender's sweeps. I have something very similar to the Defender shot sound in 7ix for the spawn sound. I use distortion 8, update at 30 Hz initially, gradually slowing down. In general, Defender's sounds have some similarity to Qix's (which not surprisingly uses similar hardware in the arcade version). Robotron, if you're talking about the new-level sounds, I'm pretty sure that's much less than 60 Hz. Sounds more like 10 Hz to me. The "speaking" tones Bob mentioned are a different matter. I doubt POKEY can do those completely accurately either, though I am eager to hear what Synthpopalooza comes up with. Maybe AtariVox could do something interesting here. I've considered that for 7ix too, but not really investigated it yet. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Synthpopalooza Posted January 3, 2022 Share Posted January 3, 2022 For the opening bass buzz, all 4 channels of POKEY in a mega filter. The filter will also come in handy for the humanoid kidnap sound. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Synthpopalooza Posted January 4, 2022 Share Posted January 4, 2022 Opening buzz done. Settings: AUDCTL=$7A 00 - silent 01 - $Ax square 02 and 03 - silent This makes a huge 4 channel mega 64-bit filter to get that attenuated sweep. If you want, set channel 3 to an $Ax value and you can add some low end to it. Emulation issues: Plays perfectly with A7800 so use that please. defender-sweep1.A78 defender-sweep1.asm defender-sweep1.bin defender-sweep1-450.A78 defender-sweep1-450.asm defender-sweep1-450.bin 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Synthpopalooza Posted January 4, 2022 Share Posted January 4, 2022 (edited) Second sweep, after you press start. Same settings as above. This might need a bit of tweaking to get that vocal timbre to it, maybe. defender-sweep2-450.A78 defender-sweep2-450.asm defender-sweep2-450.bin defender-sweep2-4000.A78 defender-sweep2-4000.asm defender-sweep2-4000.bin Edited January 4, 2022 by Synthpopalooza 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Synthpopalooza Posted January 4, 2022 Share Posted January 4, 2022 Can someone point me to wav recordings of the arcade sound fx please? I also noticed that all sounds seem to share one channel. This is good, as we can stack POKEY filters in as many different ways as needed, even using all 4 channels for one sound if we so choose. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinks Posted January 4, 2022 Share Posted January 4, 2022 (edited) 21 hours ago, DrVenkman said: Maybe you need to upgrade your “phone” … worked fine on mine. I probably do not know what to click on. I am sure any phone can play a simple sound file. You think I am using a flip phone? I get the latest and greatest every 2 to 3 years like everyone else I know for the last 15 years. Edited January 4, 2022 by Jinks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZylonBane Posted January 4, 2022 Share Posted January 4, 2022 3 hours ago, Pat Brady said: Updating every scan line would be way too fast for a frequency sweep Yeah, I know. I was using that as an extreme example. Quote Robotron, if you're talking about the new-level sounds, I'm pretty sure that's much less than 60 Hz. Sounds more like 10 Hz to me. I'm talking about how often the sound changes, not the pitch frequency. Robotron's sound hardware/software generates 894750 samples per second, which means it can, and does, produce extremely smooth and fast pitch glides that an Atari game, only updating the sound registers 60 times per second in the VBLANK, simply can't match. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Synthpopalooza Posted January 4, 2022 Share Posted January 4, 2022 Also: Some great timbres can be used here in the $Cx distortion too. More experimentation needed 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Synthpopalooza Posted January 4, 2022 Share Posted January 4, 2022 (edited) The key to this: Set up two 16-bit channels in POKEY. AUDCTL=$7A. Silence all but 2nd channel. First two are the actual 16-bit frequency. Second two are the filter frequency. Use my 16-bit note tables in either $Ax or $Cx distortion, then in the second 16-bit channel, play with the filter frequency. Certain settings will get you that ramping pulse effect of the arcade version. The vocal fx are possible here too Edited January 4, 2022 by Synthpopalooza 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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