Atari 810 copy mod, which is it?

[+Larry]

On 1/11/2022 at 9:52 AM, E474 said:

Hi @Sugarland,

 

   There's a selection of alternative Archiver/Editor ATR files here, I'm not sure how reliable the Happy versions will be, as they would (probably) try to reprogram a Happy 1050 before starting the Archiver software: https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_atari?query=Archiver

 

  Either way, nice find on the 810, it's a drive I have always hankered after, but they are a bit scarce to find in the EU.

Has anyone with a real 810 Archiver looked at these files?  I'm curious which are actually for the 810 Archiver as opposed to the 1050 Super Archiver.  The 1050 SA disks were copy protected, and most cracks won't run properly. I don't believe that the 810 versions were protected. (?) 

[ijor]

5 hours ago, DjayBee said:

Since the Archiver functionality in the 1050 is not active permanently and the open code is a safeguard against detection by software, there is not much sense in having diffferent open codes for the 1050.

 

The 1050 Archiver works the same as the 810 Archiver/The Chip in this regard. They both start up in closed/locked state and they both must be opened somehow.

 

The reason that the 1050 Archiver doesn't use unique open codes is, I guess, because they reached the conclusion that it's not worth and too annoying for the user. To make the process easier the Super Archiver software opens the 1050 Archiver automatically when it loads. No need to manually enter any open code.

[ijor]

3 hours ago, Larry said:

Has anyone with a real 810 Archiver looked at these files?  I'm curious which are actually for the 810 Archiver as opposed to the 1050 Super Archiver.

 

I think that all software versions work on all hardware versions, except that the 3.03 enhanced density version would obviously not work on the 810.

 

Quote

The 1050 SA disks were copy protected, and most cracks won't run properly. I don't believe that the 810 versions were protected. (?) 

 

The original 810 version by Spartan wasn't copy protected because there was no need to. Or at least that's what they thought. You can't run the software without the hardware. OTOH, the 1050 SA disk was (also) available as a software upgrade that would run on older hardware versions.

 

The Spartan Archiver emulator for the Happy 810 was copy protected and neither the Archiver or the Happy could copy it.

[+Nezgar]

4 hours ago, ijor said:

The reason that the 1050 Archiver doesn't use unique open codes is, I guess, because they reached the conclusion that it's not worth and too annoying for the user.

I suspect it the annoyance would be more on whomever was tasked with programming the 1050 Super Archiver EPROMs and making a unique code and keeping that matched up with whatever documentation. CSS Instead put more effort into obfuscating the hardware, as well as 'uncopyable' protection on the disks...

 

4 hours ago, ijor said:

To make the process easier the Super Archiver software opens the 1050 Archiver automatically when it loads.

I wonder if Super Archiver software simply blindly sends an open code of ABCD. (Edit: or because of the contents of sector 720 when the drive is powered up. (I'll have to check the below Super Archiver v3.x2UK ATX)

 

4 hours ago, ijor said:

The Spartan Archiver emulator for the Happy 810 was copy protected and neither the Archiver or the Happy could copy it.

I see "Archiver and Editor, The v1.0 (1983)(Spartan Software)(US).atx" in the Software Preservation collection from at least 2019, has header line "*** THE ARCHIVER  V1.0 ***" even older than the V1.2 I've tried so far earlier in the thread. It also appears to have the "magic bytes" in sector 720 since the drive was automatically opened with this ATX mounted in Altirra. There does appear to be simple copy protection on the disk in the form of blank tracks 5 through 38. Track 39 is fully intact - likely just to to host sector 720. The blank tracks could have just been to speed up duplication, maybe not necessarily checked by the software...

 

Next up "Super Archiver v3.x2UK (19xx)(Computerhouse)(GB).atx" - also in the Software Preservation Archive... Attempting to read this disk in with the 810 Archiver v1.0 can read track 0, but fails completely trying to read track 1 with "[[ READ FORMAT ERROR ]]". I'm curious to know what exactly the "uncopyable" protection is, presumably it's been figured out if it's been converted to a working ATX.

 

Has the Spartan Archiver emulator for the Happy 810 disk made it into any archives?

[Sugarland]

@Nezgar  Thank you for all the hugely helpful information on the ROM and how it works.  I read and re-read your posts a few times. I would like to flash a standard ROM to it to gain the "Chicaco" interleave and whatever else might be missing from it.  I've looked and been unable to find the ROM files. Would you please post one or more here?

 

Having this 810 and 800 together just able to play with them there's something wonderful about their presence and a tactile visceral experience that modern computers do NOT have! 

[bandit]

The "Chip" or Archiver Disk would OPen the drive with out the open code by putting disk in drive and turn on drive. The super Archiver II

Software on the 810 will not do same, you need to put code in but still works on 810.

[+Nezgar]

7 hours ago, Sugarland said:

I would like to flash a standard ROM to it to gain the "Chicaco" interleave and whatever else might be missing from it.  I've looked and been unable to find the ROM files. Would you please post one or more here?

Sure - I don't like uploading redundant files, so I found a previous post here: (There's some other discussion in that thread you may find interesting too)

https://atariage.com/forums/topic/275134-another-unknown-eprom/?do=findComment&comment=4208141

 

The open code from the file in that post is 1814, but you can hexedit the first two bytes of the dump to whatever you want. Maybe 9999 (B&C standard) or ABCD (seems to be the 1050 Super Archiver standard - though that would be CDAB in the ROM).

 

Also this post - a dump I made with open code 1595:

https://atariage.com/forums/topic/275134-another-unknown-eprom/?do=findComment&comment=4432031

[ijor]

On 1/18/2022 at 1:33 PM, Nezgar said:

I see "Archiver and Editor, The v1.0 (1983)(Spartan Software)(US).atx" in the Software Preservation collection from at least 2019, has header line "*** THE ARCHIVER  V1.0 ***" even older than the V1.2 I've tried so far earlier in the thread. It also appears to have the "magic bytes" in sector 720 since the drive was automatically opened with this ATX mounted in Altirra. There does appear to be simple copy protection on the disk in the form of blank tracks 5 through 38. Track 39 is fully intact - likely just to to host sector 720. The blank tracks could have just been to speed up duplication, maybe not necessarily checked by the software...

 

Yes, it is probably just a consequence of a faster duplication. It wouldn't make much sense for an actual copy protection since it is easily copied by The Archiver.

 

Quote

Next up "Super Archiver v3.x2UK (19xx)(Computerhouse)(GB).atx" - also in the Software Preservation Archive... Attempting to read this disk in with the 810 Archiver v1.0 can read track 0, but fails completely trying to read track 1 with "[[ READ FORMAT ERROR ]]". I'm curious to know what exactly the "uncopyable" protection is, presumably it's been figured out if it's been converted to a working ATX.

 

I wrote a note about this long ago:

http://vapi.fxatari.com/docs/sa.html

 

Btw, didn't check it, but that ATX would probably not work.

[ijor]

8 hours ago, bandit said:

The "Chip" or Archiver Disk would OPen the drive with out the open code by putting disk in drive and turn on drive. The super Archiver II

Software on the 810 will not do same, you need to put code in but still works on 810.

 

That's not correct, the Super Archiver disk should open the 810 "Chip" if powered up with the disk inserted. Which Super Archiver disk (image) are you checking? Are you using an original or a crack?

 

Note that on real hardware it might not be a good idea. The 810 hardware doesn't have a fully reliable power up protection and can damage a disk if there is one inserted at power up.

[bandit]

The Archiver II which I got with the 1050 archiver did not open with disk and it's orignal. I have a couple more of the orignals I will test incase.

 

 

[ijor]

1 hour ago, bandit said:

The Archiver II which I got with the 1050 archiver did not open with disk and it's orignal. I have a couple more of the orignals I will test incase.

 

Again, be aware that the 810 might damage a disk at power up. As a matter of fact, that might be the problem in your case because the 810 normally will start up with the head already at track 39. So chances that track 39 on your disk is damaged, and that would prevent the Chip to automatically open at power up. Check if you can read sector 720 on that disk.

 

So if you try more originals they might work, but you might end damaging them as well.

[bandit]

That is true in most cases, but not the Archiver disk, it's instant and shuts off. sparta had the last track special. Now a normal disk , that could damage disk for sure.

 

[+Nezgar]

21 hours ago, bandit said:

sparta had the last track special

What do you mean by this?

 

SpartaDOS keeps everything initially at the beginning of the disk (track 0), nothing on track 39. Also, up until the DLT releases of SpartaDOS, it also excluded use of sector 720 like Atari DOS.

[bandit]

Sparta, the company that released Archiver/editor disk.

 

[+Nezgar]

1 hour ago, bandit said:

Sparta, the company that released Archiver/editor disk.

Ah ok right - "Spartan Software Inc."

[ijor]

On 1/20/2022 at 3:36 PM, bandit said:

That is true in most cases, but not the Archiver disk, it's instant and shuts off. sparta had the last track special. Now a normal disk , that could damage disk for sure.

 

Sorry, but with all due respect, I think you don't understand how this works and what the problem is.

 

It doesn't matter what the Archiver disk exactly does and how fast. It doesn't matter if it doesn't do anything at all. It even doesn't matter what the firmware does. The issue that produce the damage works at the pure hardware level. And it doesn't matter how special is, or is not, the last track (track 39). Any disk with data on track 39 could be damaged. Even other tracks could be damaged in some cases.

 

But I'm not going to beat this to death. The disks are yours and, of course it's only up to you what you would do with them. I'm answering mostly for the record, just in case somebody else would be tempted to try the same thing. But if you allow me, I would still make you a couple of recommendations:

 

In first place, before you test powering up the 810 drive with other original disks already inserted, make a backup of track 39 of those disks. This is very quick and simple and could be done with the Archiver software itself. Of course, if you can perform a full flux level backup of those original disks, that would be even much better.

 

In second place, I'd suggest you try to read sector 720 on that original disk that doesn't open the Chip automatically. See if you can read that sector correctly without any errors. You can also do this with the Archiver. If it doesn't read ok, or if it reads after several retries, then that would explain why it doesn't work. This is because the whole auto open procedure depends on being able to read sector 720. If it still does read correctly, then you may post its content (sector 720 only should be enough) so we could analyze what it is not working.

 

[BillC]

On 1/20/2022 at 10:36 AM, bandit said:

That is true in most cases, but not the Archiver disk, it's instant and shuts off. sparta had the last track special. Now a normal disk , that could damage disk for sure.

Below is from the Happy Rev. 7 Warp Speed Software Manual explaining the issue.

 

Quote

Never turn the disk drive on or off while a diskette is inserted. This only applies to 810 disk drives as properly working 1050 disk drives have circuitry that prevents glitching the disk should the power be turned on or off while the disk is inserted, whereas the 810 may glitch (erase) data on your disk if you do this. The 810 can glitch the disk even if it is write protected!

 

Edited January 24, 2022 by BillC

[bandit]

Not sure what all is going on here, I would NOT Turn a 810 on with just any disk in drive, But the archiver disk is different, read the book. I have a disk that is 39 years old and still works (archiver) .

 

[bandit]

d) Shut power to the drive off. Insert the ARCHIVER/ EDITOR diskette. Turn power to the drive on.
e) After Busy light goes<|&it, turn on computer. The
ARCHIVER/EDITOR prbgrum will be automatically booted in and th ARCHIVER/EDITOR menu selection screen should appear. If it does, congratulations on doing a good job. You now can go to the Operation section to use all of the features of the CHIP and the ARCHIVER/EDITOR.

 

From the manual. been working for all people I know. if you do not like it, then do it your way.

[tep392]

I was reading this topic and it made me curious about what would happen if I turned on my 810 with an Archiver disk inserted.  So I made a backup of my original Archiver disk and used it to test powering up the 810 with the disk inserted to unlock the drive.  I powered up with the disk inserted 20 times and verified the drive was unlocked each time.  I periodically used a sector editor to inspect the last track.  Everything is zeroed except the last sector which has the code that unlocks the drive.  Not a single byte was damaged by doing this. 

 

It then occurred to me that Atari might have fixed the glitch issue when they started using the separate analog board.  A schematic of the analog board confirmed that they added an analog multiplexer between the read/write circuit and the head.  The enable pin of the multiplexer is connected to a resistor and capacitor (RC circuit) to delay connection of the head to r/w circuit.  The intent is to disable the signals to the head until the rest of the system has stabilized.  This would seem to be the reason that a lot of people have not had problems powering up the 810 with a disk in it.  Of course an early drive without analog board revision could potentially damage the disk so the general advice to not power on with a disk inserted is reasonable.