rcamp48 Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 With the advent of the Atari 800xl with 1MB of ram, has anyone come up with a way of online music creation for the Atari ST? Russ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zzip Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 I used to have a digitizer for ST that plugged into the cartridge port. It could digitize stereo and I think it could do it at CD quality sample rates. I forgot the name of it though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParanoidLittleMan Posted January 14, 2022 Share Posted January 14, 2022 20 hours ago, rcamp48 said: With the advent of the Atari 800xl with 1MB of ram, has anyone come up with a way of online music creation for the Atari ST? Russ I see some incoherence here. Atari 800xl with 1MB RAM ? Online music creation, then digitizing music with ST ? So, what is exactly what you want ? Yes, there was digitizer for cartridge port, as zzip answered. You may look on ebay for - probably will cost pretty .. Digitizing audio is possible with practically every newer computer, which has audio input. In CD quality for instance. To make it playable with Atari STE need little conversion. There is diverse SW for it. Like AudaCity. Online ? Don't see the point. But some googling can give answer. Playback on Atari ST ? Well, that's something not really recommended. Sound quality will be low - because no proper HW for it. Maybe to look about DA converter for ST parallel port - that is simple, cheap components. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rcamp48 Posted January 14, 2022 Author Share Posted January 14, 2022 a couple of years ago playback on an Atari 8 bit was next to impossible, then someone came out with Fujiconvert for the 8 Bit Atari, now Fujinet is being worked on for that Atari ST, all I know is that I am getting one of these for my Atari ST at the same time, you see the audio jacks on that Unitor? What can I do with them? Russ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atari74user Posted January 14, 2022 Share Posted January 14, 2022 (edited) Fujiconvert look interesting! There were of course options for the 8-bit Ataris. For the ST it is not next to impossible, however Fujiconvert would be a useful option however. For the ST and beyond there are a few options with digitisers (samplers) which offered outboard playback. There were many 8-bit ADCs and DACs bespoke to the range, as well as sample convertors which can convert between different sample formats, including the now common WAV sample format, and AVR, which became a standard for the TOS machines in many respects. Not forgetting sample editors for PC/Mac already mentioned. Some of those samplers I own and have been cataloguing here: Atari Samplers Then there are those 16-bit ADCs / DACs for the ST which are studio quality, or can be utilised in that manner which people are not necessarily familiar with: Replay 16 sampler, sample editor with 16-bit playback Pro Series 16 sampler, sample editor with 16-bit playback AS Sound Sampler III sampler, sample editor with 16-bit playback ADAP SoundRack sampler, sample editor with 16-bit playback Lynex sampler, sample editor with 16-bit playback DAME D2D recorder with 16-bit playback ADAP II D2D recorder with 16-bit playback SON D2D recorder with 16-bit playback Sound Tools D2D recorder with 16-bit playback Digital Master D2D recorder with 16-bit playback DM-EX D2D recorder / multitrack with 16-bit playback ADAS D2D recorder with 16-bit playback Granted, most of these are not common by far. There is also the Steinberg 16-bit DAC, primarily for Avalon sample editor. Then of course there is the Falcon and it's own onboard and outboard 16-bit / 24-bit DACs. The Unitor 2 you picture is a MIDI expander and SMPTE sync, which is what those 1/4 jacks are for, not audio. Kind regards Edited January 15, 2022 by Atari74user Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zzip Posted January 14, 2022 Share Posted January 14, 2022 8 hours ago, ParanoidLittleMan said: Playback on Atari ST ? Well, that's something not really recommended. Sound quality will be low - because no proper HW for it. It's pretty common though. Yes there's hiss in samples played on a stock ST that you won't hear on an STe because of the lower sample rate. 8 hours ago, ParanoidLittleMan said: There is diverse SW for it. Like AudaCity. Be careful of Audacity though, seems as of the 3.0 version, it's started collecting personal data. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParanoidLittleMan Posted January 14, 2022 Share Posted January 14, 2022 Bad sound quality on ST is because it has no DMA, digital-analog conversion type audio. And no stereo audio too. Has nothing with sample rate. Sample playback via PSG (YM) chip is just forced solution what works because machine is fast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zzip Posted January 14, 2022 Share Posted January 14, 2022 19 minutes ago, ParanoidLittleMan said: Bad sound quality on ST is because it has no DMA, digital-analog conversion type audio. And no stereo audio too. Has nothing with sample rate. Sample playback via PSG (YM) chip is just forced solution what works because machine is fast. Right, but because of those limitations, the ST has to do it all in software, and it doesn't have the speed to play samples at a high sampling rate. An 8khz sample, which I think it typical, is not going to sound good on any hardware. Now it might not be the only reason samples are noisy on ST, but it sure doesn't help! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rcamp48 Posted January 14, 2022 Author Share Posted January 14, 2022 What does the Atari 8 Bit have that the Atari ST does not have , I have manage to get reasonable sound out of the 8 Bit, its not too bad for that little 8 bit... Russ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zzip Posted January 14, 2022 Share Posted January 14, 2022 1 minute ago, rcamp48 said: What does the Atari 8 Bit have that the Atari ST does not have , I have manage to get reasonable sound out of the 8 Bit, its not too bad for that little 8 bit... It is software playback as well. Here's the thing, sound quality is all relative. BITD hearing digital samples play at all on our home computers was novel and we were amazed it could do it at all. Many games played software samples on ST, and they sounded "good enough". well at least until you hear those same samples played on an Amiga or STe and realize how much clearer they sound. But if you played samples on an Atari 8-bit and ST side by side, I think they would likely sound better on the ST because it can push data through the sound chip faster, allowing higher sample rates to be played. My experiments on 8-bit never got much about 5khz. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rcamp48 Posted January 14, 2022 Author Share Posted January 14, 2022 Here is a sample from the 8 Bit Atari, I have to admit that it sounds pretty good for an Atari 8 Bit computer. A Review of Johnny B Good playing back on an Atari 8 Bit 800xl with U1MB board and Fujinet.mp4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atari74user Posted January 14, 2022 Share Posted January 14, 2022 (edited) 59 minutes ago, zzip said: Here's the thing, sound quality is all relative. I tend to agree wit this statement, especially with the music studio world. You will often hear this is 'pro audio', that is 'pro audio', but that term has been used since the 8-bit era, it's all relative, and it all depends on the sound you are looking for. 1 hour ago, rcamp48 said: What does the Atari 8 Bit have that the Atari ST does not have , I have manage to get reasonable sound out of the 8 Bit, its not too bad for that little 8 bit... Russ Nothing essentially, to sample both machines need outboard ADCs. The difference will be quality of hardware ADCs, some which were marketed for the home markets, some for the studio market, certainly when you get to the 16-bit era. Bit rates from the 8-bit era to the 24-bit era all have their place, depending on the sound you are wanting to achieve in your recordings. Edited January 14, 2022 by Atari74user Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zzip Posted January 14, 2022 Share Posted January 14, 2022 18 minutes ago, Atari74user said: I tend to agree wit this statement, especially with the music studio world. You will often hear this is 'pro audio', that is 'pro audio', but that term has been used since the 8-bit era, it's all relative, and it all depends on the sound you are looking for. True, and it used to be that 44.1 khz 16-bit CD-quality was the gold standard for at least home use. but now you can buy 96 khz 24-bit FLACs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atari74user Posted January 14, 2022 Share Posted January 14, 2022 12 minutes ago, zzip said: True, and it used to be that 44.1 khz 16-bit CD-quality was the gold standard for at least home use. but now you can buy 96 khz 24-bit FLACs Very true! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gilsaluki Posted January 14, 2022 Share Posted January 14, 2022 1 hour ago, rcamp48 said: Here is a sample from the 8 Bit Atari, I have to admit that it sounds pretty good for an Atari 8 Bit computer. A Review of Johnny B Good playing back on an Atari 8 Bit 800xl with U1MB board and Fujinet.mp4 That's so cool on an 8-bit. Had no idea. Still, the song reminds me of Back to the Future, Marty McFly (MAC FRIE!). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParanoidLittleMan Posted January 14, 2022 Share Posted January 14, 2022 Is this Johnny be Good sung by Jerry Lee Lewis came out from Atari XL audio output, or from that Unitor 2's audio out, shown on photo ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rcamp48 Posted January 14, 2022 Author Share Posted January 14, 2022 (edited) 10 hours ago, ParanoidLittleMan said: Is this Johnny be Good sung by Jerry Lee Lewis came out from Atari XL audio output, or from that Unitor 2's audio out, shown on photo ? Johnny B Good on an Atari 800XL with an U1MB board and a Fujinet, I also have created a short video on how I created the files, I have over 300 xex files on the Atari 8 Bit, no audio as I wanted to keep it simple. Edited January 15, 2022 by rcamp48 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rcamp48 Posted January 14, 2022 Author Share Posted January 14, 2022 3 hours ago, Atari74user said: Very true! I use 192,000 K samples in surround sound 7.1 , 5.1 and stereo they sound very nice. Russ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atari74user Posted January 14, 2022 Share Posted January 14, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, rcamp48 said: I use 192,000 K samples in surround sound 7.1 , 5.1 and stereo they sound very nice. Russ Yeah, I think many people do go as high as they can, for samples it has become common because it is available, moreover for audio recording, although it will kill your CPU for audio recording. For sampling I tend to use different bit depths and sample rates across the board, depending if I want a crunchier sound or not. I tend to stick to 16-bit at 44.1 kHz as a general rule, just because it was the standard for many years, and is is more manageable with the 16-bit samplers I own, just my preference. For audio recording I tend to stick to 24-bit at 48 kHz, again because it gives me flexibility with the 24-bit workstation and DAW I own. What I didn't appreciate, is 24-bit at 48 kHz is generally seen as the new standard, despite available sample rates of 192 kHz within the music industry. I find it an interesting topic because it is generally a hobby. However for sampling and audio recording, certainly within the music industry, more doesn't necessarily mean better with bit depth, moreover sample rates. Sample rates within the music industry have been a subject of debate for a while. There are some good videos on the subject, getting into the realms of what your ears can actually hear and Nyquist theory. A recent-ish video on the subject of sample rates which I thought was well presented and interesting was this, but there are plenty. It will make you re-evaluate the necessity for huge sample rates: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hs1On87Ixe4 Edited January 14, 2022 by Atari74user Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rcamp48 Posted January 15, 2022 Author Share Posted January 15, 2022 (edited) I have a new video with at least 6 or 7 files being played back on the Atari 800xl, all 1 MB xex files.. The_playback_of_several_XEX_files_on_the_Atari_8_Bit.mp4 Edited January 15, 2022 by rcamp48 putting up new video Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParanoidLittleMan Posted January 15, 2022 Share Posted January 15, 2022 So, here we have case of Atari XL with expansion board what has 1 MB RAM and who knows what else. So yes, my answer to original question in thread title is: oh yess, you can digitizing music with Atari ST. In very high quality. Let's just see some data rates: CD audio is stereo, 16 bit 44.1 KHz = 4x44=176.4 decimal KBytes/sec = 172 binary KB/s . That's piece of cake for DMA chip in Atari ST, and it could record much higher sample rates, bits per sample ... So, all what need is good A-D converter. And there was such, but certainly not something what can just order. I guess that storage is not problem now. So, let someone design it and start to sell . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YQN Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 On 1/14/2022 at 5:52 PM, zzip said: Right, but because of those limitations, the ST has to do it all in software, and it doesn't have the speed to play samples at a high sampling rate. An 8khz sample, which I think it typical, is not going to sound good on any hardware. Now it might not be the only reason samples are noisy on ST, but it sure doesn't help! The amplitude resolution (4 bits) is far worse than the sampling rate which can go above 22kHz. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sage Posted August 13, 2022 Share Posted August 13, 2022 you have 3 channels of 4 bit on the ST, by using three channels in parallel, you can get effective ~6bit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParanoidLittleMan Posted August 13, 2022 Share Posted August 13, 2022 42 minutes ago, sage said: you have 3 channels of 4 bit on the ST, by using three channels in parallel, you can get effective ~6bit Yep, that was used in plenty of SW . For sample rate control MFP timer was used, and with good code surely could achieve pretty high sample rate by playback. Of course that meant totally busy CPU with it. Unlike 0% by STE DMA playback (during play self, not counting init of registers) . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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