Lostdragon Posted May 5, 2022 Share Posted May 5, 2022 (edited) 4 hours ago, JagChris said: It's good to see the demo finally. No need to cry in a corner I still have no problem believing the Jag will spank the PSX in 2D. In 2.5D too. You get some great programmers on Doom for both systems and the PSX will start pissing itself trying to run with the Jag. You had the best programmers at the time working on Doom on both PlayStation and Jag... Carmack admitting if Jag Doom was written from scratch he'd target a higher resolution, better frame rate etc. How would the PlayStation piss itself running with the Jag? The PlayStation went way beyond Doom on a technical level for FPS games with titles like Lifeforce Tenka and Hammerhead bringing Quake 2 to the system, pushing it to the limits. The PlayStation was pulling off very respectable conversions of Pentium PC titles like Magic Carpet, superior to the Saturn version, which was coded from scratch for the Sega hardware and MDK, which Dave Perry said was impossible. The best coders proved exactly what the PlayStation was capable of, by converting titles the industry experts claimed couldn't be done. PlayStation had Doom and Final Doom and wasn't exactly short of 2.5D FPS titles, sure it had some poor conversions like Hexen, but let's see something like Alien Trilogy on Jaguar before we worry about any urine soaking incidents. Or better still, let's see Adisak from HVS show his supposed Jaguar Doom beating 2.5D engine he had up and running, but not populated with any creatures, pathfinding A. I etc and see how it compared to Carmack's actual game engine doing game related sh#t and stuff before we speculate how far 2.5D engines could of been taken on Jaguar. We have numerous actual game examples on PlayStation and Saturn, but just a lot of chest beating talk from select people from the commercial games industry back then. I'd actually like to see Jim Bagley do Saturn Doom using his engine, to actually see if it would of been that much better than how Carmack forced him to code it. I'd like to see Rebecca write 3DO Doom from scratch. Let's see Lobotomy's unreleased PlayStation Quake conversion Let's see Saturn Alien Trilogy rewritten, but this time using both SH2 chips.. Then we could see just what the respective systems could of had, Doom and beyond wise. Let's see how further behind the Jaguar would seem then. Would finally put a stop to all this? This thread is going to get locked at this rate as it's just descended into the usual childish nonsense and squabbling. It's supposed to be about the Neo Geo games isn't it? Now it's descended into PlayStation vs Jaguar. Edited May 5, 2022 by Lostdragon 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyprian Posted May 5, 2022 Share Posted May 5, 2022 5 hours ago, CyranoJ said: great. Now someone would recreate that "Balls" demo with Jag's blitter. I wonder where the demo graphic resolution and ball counting information is come from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArneCRosenfeldt Posted May 5, 2022 Share Posted May 5, 2022 (edited) 16 hours ago, 42bs said: If they would have made a real 64 bit read, for example a "loadp r0,(rx)" would load to r0 and r1 then it would have been of real use.. But a) the need to load it from HIDATA plus b) that _any_ load/store destroys HIDATA makes it nearly unusable. So only real use case is a quick copy routine either in an interrupt (OBL update) or if no interrupts are active at all. It would even be usable if you could load from HIDATA without asking the score board. Two instructions would match the speed of the memory. You can still use the interrupt to stream commands to the blitter while you fill the queue and load a single vertex of a strip using loadp. Ah, they did not align the fields within the Object Description, but you could try to layout your stuff so that you only need to change 8 or 16 bit of the Data(if you use the GPU to switch tile source data on a scanline) or Link (to remove an object from the linked list) field. Street with curves effect: First word in second phrase ( good ) .. Did they pad it with "unused, write zero" No ! Did the place IWIDTH in it ? No! Pixel width LOL. At least the scale phrase is aligned. GPU Object is okay I guess, because you can write 16 bit (and it makes sense) or even 32bit (and add some Data for yourself). Branch Object is indeed aligned .. on 24 bit !! what? You can fill HIDATA write phrases to F02240 , F02258, then command the blitter F02238, and immediately after that storeP. 4 phrases written in one go! Edited May 5, 2022 by ArneCRosenfeldt more examples 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArneCRosenfeldt Posted May 5, 2022 Share Posted May 5, 2022 30 minutes ago, Lostdragon said: Carmack admitting if Jag Doom was written from scratch he'd target a higher resolution, better frame rate etc. How would he "target" it? You cannot do Doom on the OP (like Super burnout .. but monsters only cover a fraction of all pixels) .. so no need to target 50 fps / 60 fps . Artwork is scaled anyway, so no need to target a specific resolution. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogneda Posted May 5, 2022 Share Posted May 5, 2022 2 hours ago, JagChris said: the Jag can at least match what the PSX can do in 2D I don't know about the PSX homebrew scene, but the Jaguar seem get regular quality homebrew releases once in a while? So it doesn't matter which one has the more powerful hardware, because it is the games that matter (e.g. the quality comes from the work of the artists, musicians and the programmers) The PSX certainly had many quality games when it was in the market, the Jaguar has a very active aftermarket now. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+CyranoJ Posted May 5, 2022 Share Posted May 5, 2022 1 hour ago, Lostdragon said: How would the PlayStation piss itself running with the Jag? Debating with an imbecile incapable of any reason, who has full belief in fairy tales is a waste of time. Just read his signature for proof. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jag64 Posted May 5, 2022 Share Posted May 5, 2022 (edited) All I know is I can't wait for another side-scroller that someone figured out how to add workaround particle effects to after a quarter century, lol. The after market scene is ALIVE! Maybe one day, one of these blow-hards will make a game that doesn't look like it came from a Sega Genesis budget bin in 1998. When that happens, I'll stop thinking they're full of sht. But until then, I will judge them on results, not the hot air they spew. People that can do, do. End of story. They don't just pump out subpar trash after 25 years and expect people to believe they're writing magical code. Maybe one day, a person with enough talent to understand the Jaguar, and enough skill (bEcAusE oF aLL tHe pOtEnTiAL) to write for it will appear. And I assume they'll have pulled a sword from a stone too, because everything else about the Jaguar producing games on par with the PS1 is mythical bs. Why not add King Arthur to the stupidity these idiots spew? If we're going to say nonsense, let's go big. Just enjoy the Jaguar for what it is. Stop saying it's capable of things and show it. Do it. Prove it. No one has yet. Just a bunch of loser talk and bad games to show for it. ? Edited May 5, 2022 by Jag64 smiley added to calm frightened children Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+CyranoJ Posted May 5, 2022 Share Posted May 5, 2022 29 minutes ago, Jag64 said: Maybe one day, a person with enough talent to understand the Jaguar, and enough skill to write for it will appear. We're all too busy doing photoshop tutorials so we can look like truly talentless chumps clogging up forums I mean Photoshop has been around since the 90s... why are people still so useless and shit at it? 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCPCD Posted May 5, 2022 Share Posted May 5, 2022 13 hours ago, JagChris said: Wasn't SPCD the one who some time ago who released logic meter readings 'proving' that GPU in main was much slower than using the 68k? Yes yes I'm pretty sure he was. I'm still waiting for them to release the 68k code that will blow the doors off this whole fiasco. Generaly I don't respond to threads where there are jaguar fumes, but when there are defamation, I need to react. I think that you made reference to this post (for newer members : Be careful, read with caution ! it's in the time where there was negative atmosphere): Where in the hell I have said the GPU in main was much slower than the 68k ???? As always, you said pure bullshit and misinformation. No way the jaguar can reach the PSX level in 2D or 2.5D or 3D or Sound or what so ever. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stage_1_Boss Posted May 5, 2022 Share Posted May 5, 2022 Interesting daydreaming topic I guess, though I feel access to Neo Geo titles is easy these days digitally. I like when obscure games, versions or original games hit the Jaguar, so if I were to pick a Neo Geo game? I dunno, it'd probably be something like Nightmare in the Dark. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Welshworrier Posted May 5, 2022 Share Posted May 5, 2022 12 hours ago, CyranoJ said: Don't you have a bed full of shit to clean? Better hurry, your electroshock treatment is due soon as well. Is he married to Amber Herd now? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogneda Posted May 5, 2022 Share Posted May 5, 2022 2 hours ago, Jag64 said: someone figured out how to add workaround particle effects to after a quarter century, lol. Particle effects? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogneda Posted May 5, 2022 Share Posted May 5, 2022 (edited) Remove duplicate post. Edited May 5, 2022 by rogneda Remove duplicate post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jag64 Posted May 5, 2022 Share Posted May 5, 2022 7 minutes ago, rogneda said: Particle effects? jfc, that was a generality, lol. ... However, I should consider that for many Jaguar fans, English is not their first language. This factor, combined with the average age, and much of what I say probably seems "scary" or "confusing." So to be clear, "particle effect" was more of an umbrella example that covers minuscule or tiny steps in progress that should have been done decades ago. So to recap, "particle effects" is not a literal representation of actual particle effects, pixels, sprites, triangles, [...] or lighting specifically. Sometimes, I speak in shorthand, hoping the audience has some idea already in place of the topic and conversation flow. Again, that miscommunication could fall on me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagChris Posted May 5, 2022 Share Posted May 5, 2022 What a mess over a difference of opinion. i thought it was you scpd but one of your crew at one point posted logic analyzer images proving that GPU in main is slower than the 68k. I think it's in the JSII archives. I'll have to find them at some point. But you guys been saying this forever: Orion has also run some tests on gpu in main. the test I have done show me that it's not true. But I see the focus is on my difference of opinion rather than the claims you guys have made. oh well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stage_1_Boss Posted May 5, 2022 Share Posted May 5, 2022 All I know about this topic is.. Orion made an interesting looking JRPG that came out on PS1 and not Jaguar, which was a bummer, 'cause that's an absent genre on the Jaguar. Something about transparencies? I think that was why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagChris Posted May 5, 2022 Share Posted May 5, 2022 2 hours ago, Jag64 said: People that can do, do. End of story. They don't just pump out subpar trash after 25 years and expect people to believe they're writing magical code. Maybe one day, a person with enough talent to understand the Jaguar, and enough skill (bEcAusE oF aLL tHe pOtEnTiAL) to write for it will appear. ? Maybe it will maybe it won't ever happen. In the meantime this thread is going on ignore. Along with a few people added to that list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+CyranoJ Posted May 5, 2022 Share Posted May 5, 2022 "Your crew" conspiracy nut crazy talk again. All you need to know about him, folks. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogneda Posted May 5, 2022 Share Posted May 5, 2022 (edited) 25 minutes ago, Jag64 said: jfc, that was a generality, lol. ... However, I should consider that for many Jaguar fans, English is not their first language. This factor, combined with the average age, and much of what I say probably seems "scary" or "confusing." So to be clear, "particle effect" was more of an umbrella example that covers minuscule or tiny steps in progress that should have been done decades ago. So to recap, "particle effects" is not a literal representation of actual particle effects, pixels, sprites, triangles, [...] or lighting specifically. Sometimes, I speak in shorthand, hoping the audience has some idea already in place of the topic and conversation flow. Again, that miscommunication could fall on me. Why the hurry, each person can develop according to their own pace? Perhaps many of these people were not even into game development at all quarter of a century ago (e.g. beeing quite young then). There is no push from someone else to deliver something at a specific time, as all of these are obsolete game consoles anyway. Edited May 5, 2022 by rogneda 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jag64 Posted May 5, 2022 Share Posted May 5, 2022 10 minutes ago, JagChris said: Maybe it will maybe it won't ever happen. In the meantime this thread is going on ignore. Along with a few people added to that list. Amen. Turned into a pissing contest between a bunch of dehydrated bails of hay in the middle of the desert (since I have to spell out metaphors in the bluntest way possible for some folks ?). If someone's feelings got hurt, they'll mend. Or they won't; oh well, lol. As for whether people make games for the Jaguar, that's up to them. It's their time, and no one gets to define how you spend your time but you. I'm just talking about these folks shoveling out trash, acting like it's gold, and then talking about potential that would have been reached were it there these past long 25 years. But no matter what, the world keeps on spinning. I don't have a problem with anyone here. If they do with me, they're probably already ignored anyway for being too damn whiny to begin with, lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jag64 Posted May 5, 2022 Share Posted May 5, 2022 3 minutes ago, rogneda said: Why the hurry, each person can develop according to their own pace? Perhaps many of these people were not even into game development at all quarter of a century ago (e.g. beeing quite young then). There is no push from someone else to deliver something at a specific time, as all of these are obsolete game consoles anyway. Funny timing. I said something similar seconds after you about people having no right to define how others spend their time. i.e. No one can force others to work on things they don't want to. Or, as you pointed out, maybe they were not even in to it until recently. I was talking specifically about those doing this for a looooooooooooooooooooong time, and still not putting out crap but some sht ports and bad "originals" that look like they'd be budget titles on the SNES. If anything, I'd like to get more people into the dev side of things. Clearly some of the older cats haven't been able to accomplish any of their big promises or talk after all these years. (again, factoring for non-English speakers) "Many of the folks that have had decades with the machine haven't done sht worthwhile." They can piss and moan about that, but one quick way to shut me tf up would be to ... I dunno, put out something that didn't look like a game Stevie Wonder coded for the TG16. *Some strawman-loving moron will say, "We love and need ST ports." I agree, but if anyone even thinks about replying with some form of that stupidity, their reading comprehension skills are too fcking subpar to continue this conversation, because that was not the point. ? People need to either live up to their own hype or stfu. It's Thursday! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lostdragon Posted May 5, 2022 Share Posted May 5, 2022 (edited) 4 hours ago, ArneCRosenfeldt said: How would he "target" it? You cannot do Doom on the OP (like Super burnout .. but monsters only cover a fraction of all pixels) .. so no need to target 50 fps / 60 fps . Artwork is scaled anyway, so no need to target a specific resolution. Best fit quote from him : ".. if I was doing the project again. I know for sure how to make the rendering code 50% faster. This would allow you to either increase the horizontal resolution from 160*180 to 256*180, or increase the speed to 20 fps from 15, or run totally full screen at the same resolution with a more complex world." Point I was trying to establish was one in response to the JagChris comment about good programmers. Carmack and team worked wonders as it was bringing Doom to the Jaguar and they did it whilst there still was a commercial Jaguar market and they did it under commercial market conditions. We should think ourselves lucky we didn't end up with a Doom along lines of the 32X and 3DO versions. Carmack went onto explain that yes, it code of been done differently, had the development environment been different, he had more time and thus code code it from scratch He's also admitted in hindsight he should of let Jim Bagley use the Saturn hardware in the manner he wanted but he made the call at the time. Jim suffered a similar fate when he ported SNES Super Dropzone to the PlayStation, Archer Maclean wouldn't let him enhance any part of the game for the far superior hardware. That's commercial game development for you. People need to think before talking of good programmers, because they find themselves in the very same commercial development environments as the bad ones and aren't given freedom on projects just told port this by such and such a date, there are penalty clauses for each day you go over the deadline. Edited May 5, 2022 by Lostdragon 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
42bs Posted May 5, 2022 Share Posted May 5, 2022 4 hours ago, ArneCRosenfeldt said: You can fill HIDATA write phrases to F02240 , F02258, then command the blitter F02238, and immediately after that storeP. 4 phrases written in one go! From the manual: This section describes the internal registers of the Graphics processor. Note that some of these are read or write only. All GPU registers are 32-bit, and will require all 32 bits to be written. No 64 bit writing to the Blitter registers. For example a storep to BLIT_A1_BASE does _not_ set A1_FLAGS! Only A1_BASE is written and _not_ with HIDATA! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Monkey Posted May 5, 2022 Share Posted May 5, 2022 40 minutes ago, Jag64 said: I was talking specifically about those doing this for a looooooooooooooooooooong time, and still not putting out crap but some sht ports and bad "originals" that look like they'd be budget titles on the SNES. If anything, I'd like to get more people into the dev side of things. Clearly some of the older cats haven't been able to accomplish any of their big promises or talk after all these years. (again, factoring for non-English speakers) "Many of the folks that have had decades with the machine haven't done sht worthwhile." They can piss and moan about that, but one quick way to shut me tf up would be to ... I dunno, put out something that didn't look like a game Stevie Wonder coded for the TG16. Who specifically would you be referring to? Give examples, because I can't think of anyone releasing games who fits your description. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jag64 Posted May 5, 2022 Share Posted May 5, 2022 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Lost Monkey said: Who specifically would you be referring to? Give examples, because I can't think of anyone releasing games who fits your description. ? Any other homework assignments you got for me, Pop? lol. Any tricks you want me to perform on cue? Sorry; you'll have to ask one of your other trained pups to jump on demand. Doing us both a favor - ignored. Edited May 5, 2022 by Jag64 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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