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Neo Geo to Jaguar ports in 3,2,1 GO!

Neon Wraith

By Neon Wraith
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JagChris Quadrunner

JagChris

Posted
Posted
57 minutes ago, TheGameCollector said:

Actually, Sonic the Hedgehog for Genesis might even be an easier port to make due to the disassembly being available on Sonic Retro. I'd be kind of interested to see how different the Jaguar sound chip would sound with that game's music.

There are programs that will convert 68k asm to C.

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ColecoGamer River Patroller

ColecoGamer

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1 hour ago, TheGameCollector said:

Actually, Sonic the Hedgehog for Genesis might even be an easier port to make due to the disassembly being available on Sonic Retro. I'd be kind of interested to see how different the Jaguar sound chip would sound with that game's music.

Well… someone did a perfect port of the Master System version on the Commodore 64, requiring the 512k RAM expansion. I don’t see why a Jag version couldn’t be done. 

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agradeneu River Patroller

agradeneu

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5 hours ago, Zerosquare said:

I've never said that. It's obviously much faster than a single-speed CD drive. But it's still not fast enough to be viable without copying the graphics to RAM first. So while the loadings would be a lot faster than on the NeoGeo CD, you would still need loadings.

 

If your game only uses a limited set of graphics at the same time, and doesn't change that set often, you may pull it off. But if it needs realtime random access to any graphic in ROM, and/or more graphics than what can fit in RAM at a given time, you have a problem.

 

Also, loadings aren't free. While you're loading those graphics, the bus cycles needed to access the ROM aren't available for playing sound or running the 68K CPU.

 

No, it's not "highly theoretical". The slowness of ROM accesses is documented -- in the default configuration, it requires 10 cycles per access. There's also a warning in the official documentation about not putting graphics in ROM for that reason.

 

It isn't hard to demonstrate, either ; you could make a test program using Jagstudio with the same graphics both in ROM and RAM, and see how much you can display of each type before the screen starts not displaying properly.

How much faster is the ROM access of the NEOGEO?  

 

You are pointing out it's slower than RAM, but how much faster is it really compared to Jaguar?

 

Like last time we are running in circles with this, as you assume 2MB was insuffient for NEOGEO game, in any case. However, I dont see any evidence about the gfx data being over 2MB when the NEOGEO renders the gfx from RAM. How many pixels can it render, what is the raw data throughput for pixel gfx? 

 

I remember someone claiming the Jaguar OP can render 2x the pixels of the NEOGEO, when pushed to the max.

 

And lets not completely ignore all the tricks and workarounds that are common with other consoles - the SNES had quite respectable ports of NEOGEO games although its specs are way inferior. 

 

Anyway, it is armchair analysis and remains so until someone digs deeply into it. 

Edited by agradeneu
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agradeneu River Patroller

agradeneu

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7 hours ago, phoboz said:

 

 

In addition to less fluid animations, the SNES version completely lacked the larger animated sprites like the growling trees in the background on the forest level (if I remember it correctly?)

 

Nevertheless, both SNES and Genesis have quite impressive hardware for hadling tiled graphics. Which is a very memory efficient way to store large images built up by smaller repetitive pieces. This was a winning concept further built upon from the NES 8-bit era.

The growling trees are there. They do pull off some tricks, but to me it looks very close to the Arcade, on MUCH cheaper hardware.

 

The same trick the NEOGEO uses, it's tile based, also big sprites are made of columns of 16 pixel tiles.;-)

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agradeneu River Patroller

agradeneu

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7 hours ago, phoboz said:

Yes I agree that the SNES port of Mortal Kombat II was playable, and it also featured gore which the predecessor didn't on SNES.

 

Unfortunately the graphics didn't even come close in my opinion, because the Midway T unit had both higher resolution, and 16-bit color (while the SNES has 8-bit color)

  • Graphics: 400×254, 32768 colors, 53.20 Hz

 

I think this is the palette, not the color space of the sprites. 

32768 is not 16 bit, its more like 15 bit and the SNES has the same color space.

16 bit color space are 65.000 colors.

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phoboz Dragonstomper

phoboz

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1 hour ago, agradeneu said:

I think this is the palette, not the color space of the sprites. 

32768 is not 16 bit, its more like 15 bit and the SNES has the same color space.

16 bit color space are 65.000 colors.

The approach of the SNES is to have a powerful graphics chipset, and to save cost by putting in a really cheap (weak) CPU. The SNES CPU is more of an extended 8-bit CPU with some 16-bit registers.

While on the PC, the CPU has to move every single pixel between memory and framebuffer for every frame. That's why the game requires a more powerful CPU on the PC.

 

https://www.copetti.org/writings/consoles/super-nintendo/

Edited by phoboz
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tonma Chopper Commander

tonma

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Posted
15 hours ago, phoboz said:

Yes, but the whole point is to have a game comparable to the NeoGeo version, otherwise you can just play an existing downgraded port on a random 16-bit console.

 

The same goes for any arcade game of the 16-bit era (or even the late 8-bit era), as the arcade versions were usually far superior than the 16-bit console ports. Other classical examples are Golden Axe, Ghouls & Ghosts, Streetfighter II, Magic Sword, and even shooters like Rtype (probably an 8-bit arcade game) which had arcade quality on the PC Engine / Turbo Grafx.

 

Raiden on the Jaguar is a very good example on how this is properly done.

I just mean you have to update the gfx not necessarily downgrade. If Raiden is good enough, why not a neogeo game. The number of 4-bit palette slots is smaller on Jag but we can always find solution for that. The super system card of pce only have 2 Mo and Psx less than neogeo cd.

 

If "otherwise you can just play an existing downgraded port on a random 16-bit console." Why do you not directly play the perfect neogeo version !

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phoboz Dragonstomper

phoboz

Posted
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46 minutes ago, tonma said:

Why do you not directly play the perfect neogeo version !

I do play directly on a 4 slot NeoGeo MVS arcade candy cabinet, but it is interesting from a technical perspective to have 2D games of the same quality as 16-bit arcade games.

 

Personally I prefer many of the Capcom Play System 2 games, simply because they are better games than many of the SNK titles. Actually many CPS2 games have arcade perfect ports on the Sharp X68000 computer (these games were even developed on this computer) The X68000 has 2 MB of RAM (in standard configuration) just like the Jaguar, so the library of games for that computer would be a good March for the Jaguar. However, I doubt it is possible to get access to the original assets, and the source code for these games?

Edited by phoboz
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agradeneu River Patroller

agradeneu

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5 hours ago, phoboz said:

The approach of the SNES is to have a powerful graphics chipset, and to save cost by putting in a really cheap (weak) CPU. The SNES CPU is more of an extended 8-bit CPU with some 16-bit registers.

While on the PC, the CPU has to move every single pixel between memory and framebuffer for every frame. That's why the game requires a more powerful CPU on the PC.

 

https://www.copetti.org/writings/consoles/super-nintendo/

So you gave yourself the perfect answer why comparing PC RAM/specs to a console is not really a reasonable idea? 

I mean, you don't need 8MB on a console to have a arcade perfect port of MK2. 

Same goes for CD vs. Cart. Honestly it sounds like a "red herring" argument, for whatever reason.

 

 

 

Edited by agradeneu
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phoboz Dragonstomper

phoboz

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2 hours ago, agradeneu said:

you gave yourself the perfect answer why comparing PC RAM/specs to a console is not really a reasonable idea?

All modern stationary consoles are using PC hardware, but in the past it was different as you could see above. The consoles also had different type of games than PCs in the past.

 

That is not a reason to say you cannot make an arcade perfect port on a home console, but it may require some rework given the different (usually lower cost) hardware. Many times that process also included reducing color, resolution and he number of animation frames for the graphics. Then the result is not arcade perfect anymore...

Edited by phoboz
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agradeneu River Patroller

agradeneu

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, phoboz said:

All modern stationary consoles are using PC hardware, but in the past it was different as you could see above. The consoles also had different type of games than PCs in the past.

 

That is not a reason to say you cannot make an arcade perfect port on a home console, but it may require some rework given the different (usually lower cost) hardware. Many times that process also included reducing color, resolution and he number of animation frames for the graphics. Then the result is not arcade perfect anymore...

That might be a worst case scenario - based on what assumptions? PCs were hogging a lot of RAM for the OS alone, they were dreadful with rendering sprite or tiled based graphics compared to consoles with custom chips that were optimized for these kind of graphics. 

I really dont know what your assumptions are based on, it's all confused rethorics to me, sorry. 

Edited by agradeneu
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