Dopy25 Posted July 2, 2022 Share Posted July 2, 2022 So the ST I got was the most basic on the planet. Haha. Looking into upgrading the TOS. The easy way out is $46 on eBay but I'm still debating on other ways. The other problem is that I can't run sysinfo because it says I need 350kb of free ram. I'm thinking I might have a problem with the stock ram. I really want to upgrade the stock ram but I'm not finding much complete information on diy projects. I found a board from agranlund on GitHub and it says it requires a bodge wire, and found another thread on here where the board was updated to not require a bodge. Basically I'm wondering opinions on the cheapest, best or easiest method to upgrade any sort of RAM at all. I just want to have some fun on this machine and am hitting a brick wall. Thanks for any and all input. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snarkdluG Posted July 3, 2022 Share Posted July 3, 2022 There is so many main PCB in Ataris so it's hard to give any tips. If you want it to be cheap you have to solder a lot. There isn't much DIY projects out there. Since you referenced Agranlund I'm guessing you have a really early model without internal floppy drive and 512Kb RAM? Probably with TOS v1.0. Otherwise exxos have 4Mb upgrades that uses shifter and MMU chip sockets. Marpet/Frontier used the same technique in the 80/90ies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zzip Posted July 3, 2022 Share Posted July 3, 2022 I had a friend upgrade my 520STfm BITD, all I had to do was obtain the correct 1mb in RAM chips, and he just soldiered them onto the board and it worked. No extra hardware required (unless you want to go more than 1Mb). Which 520ST model do you have? I.E. Is the floppy drive internal or external, are their any letters after 520ST on the label? (STm STf, STfm, STe). This may determine upgrade options. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dopy25 Posted July 3, 2022 Author Share Posted July 3, 2022 The one I have is the 520st. No letters. No RF modulator. No upgrades yet. It's the basic one. It does have 512kb and TOS 1.0. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dopy25 Posted July 3, 2022 Author Share Posted July 3, 2022 15 hours ago, snarkdluG said: Since you referenced Agranlund I'm guessing you have a really early model without internal floppy drive and 512Kb RAM? Probably with TOS v1.0 Is that method only for the 520st with external power and floppy? I was looking for ways to upgrade a 520st but I didn't see anything about it only working for that model. Do you know where I can find more information on this? I guess I should assume that means it's proven to work and I would be ok to get the board and RAM with no issues? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dopy25 Posted July 7, 2022 Author Share Posted July 7, 2022 Noticed a few videos on yt because those were most of the results on Google, that many had the exact same unit, some even the same revision. I went for it and order (some) boards. My next issue is that I cannot seem to find the right ram chips to go on the board. It's like those are now being phased out as well. The BOM lists component: 5118160 DRAM and package: SOJ42 When I search those numbers on anything, I get varying results. Mouser, Digikey, even ebay. The form factor looks slightly different on many, and most of them have different trailing numbers. Some even say they are 256kb. I assume these should be 2MB each if the total ends up 4MB, no? Can anyone point me to the right direction of ram chips for this board? Much appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParanoidLittleMan Posted July 7, 2022 Share Posted July 7, 2022 It's 256KB and 2Mb - learn about what is bit, byte, big B and lower case b . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dopy25 Posted July 7, 2022 Author Share Posted July 7, 2022 1 hour ago, ParanoidLittleMan said: It's 256KB and 2Mb - learn about what is bit, byte, big B and lower case b . Thanks for the grammar check. Does that mean you know what part I should be looking for? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParanoidLittleMan Posted July 7, 2022 Share Posted July 7, 2022 It's not grammar in fact. There are some conventions with what letter type to write digital values. You should look about old fashion non DDR, non EDO type dynamic RAM chips. I surely don't remember those markings. Dealt with it more than 20 years ago. Just one clue: using 4 bit DRAM chips means 4x less of them. Instead 16 only 4 for 16 bit RAM bank. As it was in latest ST machines with half or 1 MB RAM . To add that in 1990 I expanded my ST (org. 520) with 1 Mbit chips - and it resulted in 2.5 MB RAM, not 1 MB . Something what should be rather target in 2022. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dopy25 Posted July 7, 2022 Author Share Posted July 7, 2022 17 minutes ago, ParanoidLittleMan said: It's not grammar in fact. There are some conventions with what letter type to write digital values. You should look about old fashion non DDR, non EDO type dynamic RAM chips. I surely don't remember those markings. Dealt with it more than 20 years ago. Just one clue: using 4 bit DRAM chips means 4x less of them. Instead 16 only 4 for 16 bit RAM bank. As it was in latest ST machines with half or 1 MB RAM . To add that in 1990 I expanded my ST (org. 520) with 1 Mbit chips - and it resulted in 2.5 MB RAM, not 1 MB . Something what should be rather target in 2022. I understand there is a difference in kilobyte and kilobit, but honestly don't see how it was relevant. I didn't think the RAM in the type and package that I mentioned would be kilobit. It really just sounded like you wanted to point out a typo. I will admit that I have yet to remember the difference in big vs small letters. Moving on to the issue at hand. My main concern is not the bit vs byte, but rather the form factor. Does the B v b have anything to do with the form factor? Some of the ones I found say 256 where I feel it should be 1. I cannot tell if that is what makes the form factor different. Some of them seem to have less pins, even though they are in the same class. It's just confusing to me. I was wondering if anyone knew for sure where to purchase the RAM used in the 4MB upgrade from agranlund. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParanoidLittleMan Posted July 7, 2022 Share Posted July 7, 2022 Good luck in finding exactly that exact type of RAM. When I did expansions (and I made it for plenty of users, not only myself) I did not look for exact brand and marking, but for RAM what is good for Atari ST - after reading literature, magazines, RAM chip specs, etc. All it was before Internet. Even then some brands and RAMs disappeared from market, now it's all about finding pretty old used RAM chips or modules good for very old computer. Btw. I have one 4 MB RAM module, small size, what worked fine in my Mega ST. Now is removed, and it works with org. 1 MB. Don't plan to put it back. Because it needs repair sometimes, and it is in way. It is btw. half of original Macintosh 8 MB RAM module. Needs plenty of soldering and looking in ST schematic and RAM chip pin layout. In any case it fits, without any extra logic chip added. And all it is accessible on WEB, after little googling. Form factor: Old DRAM is normally with 1 or 4 data pins. + address pins (half of used because multiplexing) and few control lines - RAS, CAS, WR + power. What is in org 520 is 16 pins - look schematic of some ST machine ... If chips are 1 bit data and 1 Mbit capacity it will be 18 pins ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dopy25 Posted July 7, 2022 Author Share Posted July 7, 2022 3 minutes ago, ParanoidLittleMan said: Good luck in finding exactly that exact type of RAM. When I did expansions (and I made it for plenty of users, not only myself) I did not look for exact brand and marking, but for RAM what is good for Atari ST - after reading literature, magazines, RAM chip specs, etc. All it was before Internet. Even then some brands and RAMs disappeared from market, now it's all about finding pretty old used RAM chips or modules good for very old computer. Btw. I have one 4 MB RAM module, small size, what worked fine in my Mega ST. Now is removed, and it works with org. 1 MB. Don't plan to put it back. Because it needs repair sometimes, and it is in way. It is btw. half of original Macintosh 8 MB RAM module. Needs plenty of soldering and looking in ST schematic and RAM chip pin layout. In any case it fits, without any extra logic chip added. And all it is accessible on WEB, after little googling. Form factor: Old DRAM is normally with 1 or 4 data pins. + address pins (half of used because multiplexing) and few control lines - RAS, CAS, WR + power. What is in org 520 is 16 pins - look schematic of some ST machine ... If chips are 1 bit data and 1 Mbit capacity it will be 18 pins ... I am not looking for specific brand. Also, I am not looking to replace original ram chips in the ST. I am looking specifically at putting the upgrade board created by Anders Granlund as identified here: https://github.com/agranlund/STRam I have found other forums or videos where the user installed the board, but it was already prebuilt when they acquired it. Since I cannot find a prebuilt board, and like to build things myself, I opted to buy a board and am not looking for the correct components. The BOM lists a component and package for the ram, but I am having trouble finding it based on the information in the github readme. I would like to know if anyone knows this RAM, or has performed this upgrade built by themselves, and where they purchased the actual RAM chip. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParanoidLittleMan Posted July 8, 2022 Share Posted July 8, 2022 There writes that existing RAM needs to be removed - so it will be replacement of RAM. If you like to build self, easiest is to do piggyback expansion - soldering chips on top of existing ones. Not elegant, but can do in 1 hour, need only wires. And of course those 16 pin DRAM chips . That will be another 512 KB bank, and there can be max 2 of them in ST . Btw. whole project does not seems much good - here mean presentation - no pic, etc. And seems abandoned. So buying board is questionable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dopy25 Posted July 8, 2022 Author Share Posted July 8, 2022 (edited) 3 hours ago, ParanoidLittleMan said: There writes that existing RAM needs to be removed - so it will be replacement of RAM. If you like to build self, easiest is to do piggyback expansion - soldering chips on top of existing ones. Not elegant, but can do in 1 hour, need only wires. And of course those 16 pin DRAM chips . That will be another 512 KB bank, and there can be max 2 of them in ST . Btw. whole project does not seems much good - here mean presentation - no pic, etc. And seems abandoned. So buying board is questionable. Removal of old RAM being required to use the 4MB board does not under any circumstance mean replacement of old RAM. Replacement of old RAM means to use same type of RAM in it's place. I'm not putting the same type of RAM in it's place. The board was only created 7 months ago. What on Earth makes you think it's abandoned? I will not be piggybacking to old ram. Please refrain from further posts attempting to change the topic or redirect me to a different method. If you do not have the information I am requesting, I would prefer you not clutter up this thread. I hope to eventually have a solution to my question and if you continue to clutter, the solution may not be evident when it presents itself. Thank you Edited July 8, 2022 by Dopy25 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+LarryL Posted July 8, 2022 Share Posted July 8, 2022 Hi, maybe back to the original question… What you seem to need is „5118160 DRAM in SOJ42 Package“ The 5118160 has a capacity of 2 MByte, organized as 1Mbitx16bit the package defines the dimensions of the Chip and the pins - here you need SOJ42 different package sizes exist looking at Mouser or Digikey might result in compatible chips - I did not find any 5118160 in SOJ42 after a quick search but I found one listing on eBay https://www.ebay.de/itm/223393208822 comes from HongKong - so there usually is a risk of getting fake chips, but very often they are Ok when you search for compatible chips, besides organization (1Mx16) and package (SOJ42) also the power supply must match! The 5118160 needs 5V (and this is what you get from the ST) - many actually available RAM Chips work with 3.3V (and usually will get destroyed with 5V) good luck! regards Michael 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snarkdluG Posted July 8, 2022 Share Posted July 8, 2022 https://www.exxosforum.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=4409 https://m.aliexpress.com/wholesale/HYB5118160.html?osf=direct&spm=a2g0n.productlist.header.0 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParanoidLittleMan Posted July 8, 2022 Share Posted July 8, 2022 Replacing RAM chips with different ones is not replacement ? This is really waste of time to talk to someone who even can not search on WEB ... If that board is still manufactured what is what prevents ordering it ? Ah, people at this forum who don't help ... But this is not first case here. There is saying: real help is not giving food to hungry, but equipment, knowledge for manufacturing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snarkdluG Posted July 8, 2022 Share Posted July 8, 2022 24 minutes ago, ParanoidLittleMan said: ... If that board is still manufactured what is what prevents ordering it? ... It's a DIY project. Agranlund did a board for himself and then uploaded it to github so everyone can use it if they want. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParanoidLittleMan Posted July 8, 2022 Share Posted July 8, 2022 (edited) 9 hours ago, snarkdluG said: It's a DIY project. Agranlund did a board for himself and then uploaded it to github so everyone can use it if they want. OK. So how to explain this: "I have found other forums or videos where the user installed the board, but it was already prebuilt when they acquired it. Since I cannot find a prebuilt board, and like to build things myself, I opted to buy a board and am not looking for the correct components. " . Here to add that whole thing, designing such board is pretty trivial - just connect all address lines, control lines ... Data lines need to be soldered at pin connections to original chips - what for me looks as that will need short wires to solve it . I would rather put those 2 chips somewhere and used tiny wires to connect it all - no need to make board, will take less space, and less time. Ah sorry, this thread do not allows writing own opinion, ideas. No, we need to give help in buying something what nobody sells ! Edited July 8, 2022 by ParanoidLittleMan 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dopy25 Posted July 8, 2022 Author Share Posted July 8, 2022 7 hours ago, ParanoidLittleMan said: Replacing RAM chips with different ones is not replacement ? This is really waste of time to talk to someone who even can not search on WEB ... If that board is still manufactured what is what prevents ordering it ? Ah, people at this forum who don't help ... But this is not first case here. There is saying: real help is not giving food to hungry, but equipment, knowledge for manufacturing it. Not sure why we're still having an argument at all. It's a waste of time for someone who can't even READ! Oh, maybe if you say something else that rude and off topic. I asked you to stop posting in this thread unless you have the information I asked about, which other users have already shared info on. I know how to do a web search, but already explained I'm not familiar with the RAM types that pop up. I suppose by your words, I should familiarize myself with Basic, or French while I'm at it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dopy25 Posted July 8, 2022 Author Share Posted July 8, 2022 8 hours ago, snarkdluG said: https://www.exxosforum.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=4409 https://m.aliexpress.com/wholesale/HYB5118160.html?osf=direct&spm=a2g0n.productlist.header.0 I did see that thread too. Actually, I found it due to your post about the updated board here on AA. Thanks for that! It lead me to exxos, but I still didn't see anywhere that says where to purchase compatible ram. Thank you for the AliExpress link! It does bring back a search, but am I to understand these will work? https://a.aliexpress.com/_mrMgJRC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+LarryL Posted July 8, 2022 Share Posted July 8, 2022 11 minutes ago, Dopy25 said: I did see that thread too. Actually, I found it due to your post about the updated board here on AA. Thanks for that! It lead me to exxos, but I still didn't see anywhere that says where to purchase compatible ram. Thank you for the AliExpress link! It does bring back a search, but am I to understand these will work? https://a.aliexpress.com/_mrMgJRC The last link ends up at an error message as long as it is a 5118160 in SOJ42 it should work the Aliexpress link from @snarkdluG gives you at least two matches Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dopy25 Posted July 8, 2022 Author Share Posted July 8, 2022 4 minutes ago, LarryL said: The last link ends up at an error message as long as it is a 5118160 in SOJ42 it should work the Aliexpress link from @snarkdluG gives you at least two matches Weird how AliExpress works. Haha. This is what shows up in the link I sent. I think it's the second result in the link from snark. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+LarryL Posted July 8, 2022 Share Posted July 8, 2022 Looks good buy more than two! there is always the risk that some of them don’t work, are fakes, etc But most of the time >50% are working (my experience) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snarkdluG Posted July 8, 2022 Share Posted July 8, 2022 I was on my phone when I did the search. Here is a better link. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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