The future of NES clones.

[M-S]

Recently I've seen a lot of people that seem to think that NES clones are either a perfect FPGA recreation or a cheap NOAC with screwed up audio, but during these last two years a lot of good clones have appeared, but before talk about that I'm going classify clones by the type of hardware inside of them:
Full hardware clones: Mostly made by companies in countries that didn't had received the NES officially, these had components for each chip inside the NES, so compatibility was high, and sometimes the quality was better than the product it was based on, since Nintendo just assembled it in Japan, but the components were made in China.
NES-on-a-chip: This is where the bad perception that people have on Famiclones come from, wrong color palette, bad audio, hollow carcass with just some components inside, not all of them are bad, but most are.
FPGA recreations: As of now, the only two examples are the AVS and the Analogue NT, these are very expensive and hard to find, but claim to be 100% compatible with anything you throw at them.

 

So, back to the what I was saying, recently there have been a huge amount of hardware clones that have a lot more quality than the products sold by the likes of Hyperkin and Retro-bit, the only problem is that they are sold almost exclusively by Chinese companies without a name or a brand. First there are the Zoga and a generic one that mimics the Famicom, both having a good compatibility but with not all games tested, and there's a full hardware clone called Coolbaby RS-40, a clone that's PAL but can be modified to NTSC, there are also some variations of the first 2 ones, like one that is a 2-in-1 with the SNES and a portable one. I could spend a lot of time saying what works and what doesn't, but I'm going to sum it up to: each one of these clones have their own features, but there isn't one that has everything yet, but what is here shows that a perfect clone could exist without the use of an expensive FPGA, and that any of these problems will probably be solved with each hardware revision, because even if it's a gray Chinese market, these companies are trying to improve their products, some of these clones even have wireless controllers and HDMI ports.
So, what does a clone needs to be on the same level of FPGA products?
1. Region switch 
2. Compatibility with cartridges that have sound chips or extra hardware inside.
3. Compatibility with games that usually don't work on other clones or emulation.

4. Famicom expansion port, not essential but I included it here anyways, it was mostly used for things related to sound or the BASIC keyboard.

[Tanooki]

There's also the Analouge NT spinoff basically, the hi def NES kit you pop into a legit console, but it's the same core from the same kevtris, it's what I use in a modded top loader and it's remarkable.  But you're right, largely, though some NOACs are far nicer than others, they've slowly updated them from utter crap to fairly solid in the last decade.  I'm using a FC Mobile 88 I found in town about 5 years ago I guess now, it can handle audio and visuals correctly, where it has a problem are some of the highly more advanced memory mapper chips a few carts in Japan used.  It seems to top out with the VRC2-4 from Konami, but more like a few namco, sunsoft, and high konami(vrc6, vrc7) just go to a blank screen or boot the internal 88 games of garbage.  I really enjoy it so I keep it around in my desk for a quick fix, so long as I don't fire up Final Lap or Akamajou Densetsu(CV3 JP) on it.

 

The clone needs to do what it does now, but investigate those more complicated and memory/special technique mapper hungry games and allow them to pass checks and work.  Outside that, it's transitory really what matters, more a preference with region because by default they should just work for PAL/NTSC unless they blew it, and an adapter would fix the 60-72pin gap.  I think the expansion port is a bit of an ask, the FDS is flaky and niche at this rate, enough people bypass it with a FDSstick or an everdrive now.

[M-S]

60-to-72 pin adapters are so common now that I even forgot to mention it in the original post, I know a few games that don't work with Famiclones, like Battletoads and Somari, but some kind of list with all of these would be helpful for testings in the future. The region switch is more about the games that were made to run in 50Hz like Darkwing Duck and other European exclusives. About the expansion port, the FDS doesn't actually use it, it uses the cartridge port, it's interesting how nobody thought about cloning it, since there are many unofficial floppy disk units made for consoles like the Genesis and the SNES, what the expansion port is actually used for are these: controllers with microphones, Family Basic Keyboard and two products by Hori, a demo recorder and an unit that adds a way to connect the Famicom to audio devices like recorders and headphones.

[M-S]

After some extra research I found a small list of games that don't work on clone consoles, of course it's incomplete, but it's better than the only 2 examples I gave

Interestingly, the Analogue Nt can't play the second level of Battletoads, but the AVS can, so I guess it takes the title of best NES clone for now.

For now I can't add anything to this topic, so tomorrow I'm starting a similar topic but for the SNES.

[jhd]

 

Is there still a viable market for this type of system? I would think that most everyone who wanted one has one by now.

 

Personally, I have like three different Famiclones, and no desire to acquire anything more sophisticated as they meet my needs. 

[M-S]

6 hours ago, jhd said:

 

Is there still a viable market for this type of system? I would think that most everyone who wanted one has one by now.

 

Personally, I have like three different Famiclones, and no desire to acquire anything more sophisticated as they meet my needs. 

I mean, if you buy an AVS you'll probably never need to buy another clone unless you want a portable one or something to extensively mod. But of course cheaper Famiclones still have room for improvements, so why not? The machines that produce clone chips will keep running for a long time, so it would be better if at least these were good products.

[Tanooki]

I'm using an original toploader which has the HiDefNES Kit bypass in there with the FPGA core kevtris made that was adopted into the analogue system for NES too.  With that I need nothing better on the console front, but I will have room in my space for a handheld clone when they can finally get that right.  The closest I've come across yet is the FC Mobile 88 device, does fine with US games, largely fine with Japanese too until you get into the upper level of high performing special chip games (VRC6 for Castlevania III and 7 for Lagrange Point, the Namco chip in Final Lap, Sunsoft for I think Gimmick etc.)   None of those work, black screen, but the still higher detailed ones like the Konami VRC4 line used by some solid shooters work great.  If an even better c ore happened and with the usual modern LCD and rechargeable power within I'd dump it in an instant.

[M-S]

14 hours ago, Tanooki said:

I'm using an original toploader which has the HiDefNES Kit bypass in there with the FPGA core kevtris made that was adopted into the analogue system for NES too.  With that I need nothing better on the console front, but I will have room in my space for a handheld clone when they can finally get that right.  The closest I've come across yet is the FC Mobile 88 device, does fine with US games, largely fine with Japanese too until you get into the upper level of high performing special chip games (VRC6 for Castlevania III and 7 for Lagrange Point, the Namco chip in Final Lap, Sunsoft for I think Gimmick etc.)   None of those work, black screen, but the still higher detailed ones like the Konami VRC4 line used by some solid shooters work great.  If an even better c ore happened and with the usual modern LCD and rechargeable power within I'd dump it in an instant.

There has been some progress on making games with extra sound chips work, I don't want to get too technical, since it would fit more in the thread I'm going to make on the Hardware subforum, but there's a NoaC that features an extra connection glued into the board for flash carts to work, it also kind os makes these cartridges play with extra sound, it's just that the volumes and the pitch seem to be inverted.

  A project that I'm following is the TinyNES, it's basically very similar to the RS-40 clone in the sense that is going to use full hardware instead of an ASIC, but it's going to be made in the USA so it costs 200U$, more expensive than an AVS, it's also not going to have HDMI or a region switch, for me it's specially bad because the chips are NTSC instead of PAL-M.

  But it's going to be open source, so there's a possibility of using it as a base for modding a clone so it can work with special cartridges. The possibility of an affordable NES clone as good as an AVS has never been closer. Also, I found some NES clones that have a very sharp image, like the Old Skool Classiq N HD, at first I wasn't very interested in HDMI, but seeing a 40 U$ clone with that image made me interested, apparently there's a very cheap 720p upscaler that they started using unlike other systems that just use a basic HDMI-to-AV converter.

  About portable clones, if you just take the design of the TinyNES and put a screen and controllers on it would probably be around the size of a Sega Nomad and a Steam Deck, so they'll probably use NoaC designs for a while.

Edited July 29, 2022 by M-S

[Tanooki]

I'm aware of that little tinynes concept, saw it if it's what i think it is with the little shell barely wider than a cart with a clear shell and dark pcb.  I can't get on board with something like that, the price is to me a joke when all it offers is what the 80s NES did for output at best.

 

If that Old Skool uses the upscaler you can get for the multi-av port that SNES through Wii uses, it's quality and quite sharp on the cheap.  I use and HDMI kid modded top loader so I have no stake in it.  I just would like to see a quality portable, doesn't even need HD, something accurate that core level like the Supaboy S/SFC/BG does that can handle all the special chips and even the made up ones (MSU-1.)

[M-S]

4 hours ago, Tanooki said:

I'm aware of that little tinynes concept, saw it if it's what i think it is with the little shell barely wider than a cart with a clear shell and dark pcb.  I can't get on board with something like that, the price is to me a joke when all it offers is what the 80s NES did for output at best.

Yeah, apparently the board from PCBway is mostly what makes it expensive, but that is just their version of the console, they are allowing people to copy the design to build clones from scratch, and this is where I see the potential, they are probably trying to find a way for special cartridges to work, and then that could be adapted into other clones.

4 hours ago, Tanooki said:

I just would like to see a quality portable, doesn't even need HD, something accurate that core level like the Supaboy S/SFC/BG does that can handle all the special chips and even the made up ones (MSU-1.)

If you want a portable one compatible with that, the only thing to do is wait for a new model after the TinyNES goes open source, for now the 8-Bit Pocket Plus IPS seems to be the most recent one.

[Tanooki]

Never heard of that, I'll see what you mean about that one for a portable.  The other choice while excellent is the Miyoo Mini v2/v3 but, it's overkill and defeats the purpose as it won't use carts.

[M-S]

22 hours ago, Tanooki said:

Never heard of that, I'll see what you mean about that one for a portable.

I find those things in Japanese and Korean websites and Youtube channels, these kind of things usually appear first there before being available on the west.

On 7/29/2022 at 12:45 AM, Tanooki said:

 The closest I've come across yet is the FC Mobile 88 device, does fine with US games, largely fine with Japanese too until you get into the upper level of high performing special chip games (VRC6 for Castlevania III and 7 for Lagrange Point, the Namco chip in Final Lap, Sunsoft for I think Gimmick etc.)   None of those work, black screen, but the still higher detailed ones like the Konami VRC4 line used by some solid shooters work great.  If an even better c ore happened and with the usual modern LCD and rechargeable power within I'd dump it in an instant.

While I was looking for a totally unrelated topic (Z80 cross-compatibility) I also found some interesting things about the Konami sound chips:

It appears to be a simple mod, although the mod creator didn't mention anything else other than the fact it works and he didn't gave any updates for years.

[Tanooki]

HMMM, but is it audio only, or would it enable my other FC games?  I wonder I wonder... I'd be happy right this moment to pull my basic soldering kit out if it got that working as I like the FC Mobile 88.

[M-S]

Probably, games not playing are usually a wiring issue. I found some videos about modding famiclones to play Castlevania 3 and others, it's about connecting pin 46 to the audio out with a resistor between, the problems is that the videos I found are in Portuguese and work with these Brazilian clones: an old full hardware, a 2000's NoaC, and an old clone that had both 60 and 72 pin cartridge ports, also, if you are talking about a portable I'm sure the connections are different. But the person that made the mod is still around so I guess I can ask him about it. Once I find more information I can make a thread in the Hardware subforum entirely dedicated to that.

[Tanooki]

I'd take a peek, the FC Mobile 88 is based on like other decade old boards/chips of the type so it could end up working out as they just keep recycling the same tired old stuff with incremental upgrades.  It just would be nice to get CV3jp working on the thing, Final Lap(namco higher mapper) and another game or two I have it hates.