Newell Atari 800 RAMROD Personality Board

[reifsnyderb]

I just made an offer for and picked up a Newell Atari 800 RAMROD Personality Card and am wondering if there is any interest in making schematics for and cloning this card.  Over time, I do plan to make up a schematic.  But, if there is interest, I'll speed it up.

 

The card has 3 sockets for moving the stock ROM chips to the card.  The other two sockets can be used for RAM for the C000-CFFF bank so as to have a 52k Atari or for other ROMs.  Optionally, different ROMs can be used, of course.  From what I've read, this board would be shipped unpopulated with the exception of an Omnimon or Omniview chip.

 

A little troubleshooting has determined that the 8 position DIP switch is bad.  So, when I order parts, I'll order another DIP switch.  In this card's past, somebody put in a bigger chip and a toggle switch.  At some point, I'll see if I can read off the chip they used.

 

Here's a picture of the board:

 

 

Also, here's the configuration instructions for the card:

 

RAMROD.pdf

 

 

[+Larry]

Nice find!  Could the board be simplified with a big eprom or eeprom or flash memory?

[reifsnyderb]

30 minutes ago, Larry said:

Nice find!  Could the board be simplified with a big eprom or eeprom or flash memory?

It could, yes.

 

Edit to add:  Given chip availability, a flash memory chip would probably be ideal.  An S-RAM chip could be added if somebody wanted to add the 4k of RAM between C000-CFFF, instead.  I suppose 3 sockets could be added to move the OS.  DIP switches could be used for configuration.  A lot of things could be done.

Edited September 24, 2022 by reifsnyderb

[reifsnyderb]

Thinking even more about this:  If a "modern" version of this board were to be made, it wouldn't be hard to do the following:

 

1.  Have 3 sockets so the original 3 ROM chips could be installed.

2.  Have a PLCC-32 socket for a flash chip.

3.  Have an S-RAM chip for memory for the $C000-CFFF region.

4.  If there is #3, why not make it mosaic banked memory?

5.  Have DIP switches to select the 3 ROM chip sockets or the PLCC-32 socket for the OS.  (OS could be customized)

6.  Have DIP switches to turn off the S-RAM.  (i.e.  Omniview could be installed at C000-CFFF)

7.  Have DIP switches to use ROM at C000-CFFF

 

Other thoughts: 

A.  Jumpers are cheaper than DIP switches.

B.  ROM at C000-CFFF won't interfere with Axlon banking.  (i.e.  The computer would read from the ROM and write to the Axlon banking registers.

C.  Adding mosaic banking would increase the cost.  Forget about mosaic banking?  (5 chips?)

D.  The cheapest configuration would be just a flash chip.

E.  A reasonably cheap compromise would be 3 sockets for the original ROMs, a flash chip, and an SRAM chip.  Configuration would be by jumpers.

 

Note:  A personality card also requires a delay line, a decoder, and some data bus gate logic.

[+slx]

Can the Incognito emulate a RAMROD? If yes, I‘m afraid I won‘t need the new board unless I get another 800, but I think it would be worthwhile for those who don‘t want or need all the Incognito does or dread the installation. 

[+Larry]

Is Mosaic banking the same as providing 52K or does that mean multiple 4K segments? Or is there any way that 52k can be used from Axlon ram? (Your Axlon card.) Edit: I see that from your 1008 thread that it's not practical to get 52K with your board.

[reifsnyderb]

9 hours ago, slx said:

Can the Incognito emulate a RAMROD? If yes, I‘m afraid I won‘t need the new board unless I get another 800, but I think it would be worthwhile for those who don‘t want or need all the Incognito does or dread the installation. 

I think, from what I've read, that the Incognito can emulate the RAMROD.  But, as you mention, it could be worthwhile for someone who doesn't want to install an Incognito.

[reifsnyderb]

3 hours ago, Larry said:

Is Mosaic banking the same as providing 52K or does that mean multiple 4K segments? Or is there any way that 52k can be used from Axlon ram? (Your Axlon card.) Edit: I see that from your 1008 thread that it's not practical to get 52K with your board.

Both.  Mosaic banking uses the C000-CFFF region for the memory bank.  So you will have 52k of RAM with the added benefit of being able to bank the C000-CFFF region. 

 

I am not sure what all uses Mosaic banking, however.  But it makes sense to me that if someone wants the 52k that Mosaic banking would be a nice option as it's not compatible with Axlon.  I think I've figured out how to do Mosaic banking with fewer chips than initially expected. 

[+David_P]

Wild idea: battery backup for the mosaic RAM bank, for a persistent RAMdisk even after a powering down / rebooting?  When my MIO is connected to one of my 800xls, the ability to keep the RAMdisk even after I crash is a great feature.

[reifsnyderb]

47 minutes ago, David_P said:

Wild idea: battery backup for the mosaic RAM bank, for a persistent RAMdisk even after a powering down / rebooting?  When my MIO is connected to one of my 800xls, the ability to keep the RAMdisk even after I crash is a great feature.

That's an interesting idea.  Space is a big consideration.  That and keeping the board cheap.  The size of the personality board means that in order to avoid that $35 "engineering fee" that it needs to be a 2 layer board.  Right now I am at 15 chips and a DIP switch.  How much more would be needed to add the battery backup?

[Bee]

@reifsnyderb  Are you familiar with Mahys memory upgrade with Battery back up? - It looks like 3 chips on a xl/ex

 

It was incorporated in the 130XE remake

Edited September 27, 2022 by Bee

[reifsnyderb]

22 minutes ago, Bee said:

@reifsnyderb  Are you familiar with Mahys memory upgrade with Battery back up? - It looks like 3 chips on a xl/ex

 

It was incorporated in the 130XE remake

I am not.  I'll have to look into it.  But first I need to see if I can fit everything on this board.  

[+Larry]

Here is the 400/800 installation manual for the Mosaic 64K Select:

https://forums.atariage.com/topic/292320-helpatari-800-mosaic-64k-ram-card-docs/#comment-4295030

It's near the bottom of the thread.  Apologies if this link was posted here somewhere recently, but I found this from my searches. 

 

A quick read shows that this is a very interesting memory card, even to the point of making the 800 act like a 1200.  I sure didn't know that!  However, making it imitate a 1200 does require a wire to be soldered to the motherboard and also requires taking the 800 apart.  It doesn't look terrible, but if you're going to do this, an Incognito becomes more attractive.

 

For my two cents, a new board should have 52K + Mosaic banking.  I'd be a buyer, and especially if it will work with the 1008K board.

[reifsnyderb]

56 minutes ago, Larry said:

Here is the400/800 installation manual for the Mosaic 64K Select:

https://forums.atariage.com/topic/292320-helpatari-800-mosaic-64k-ram-card-docs/#comment-4295030

It's near the bottom of the thread.  Apologies if this link was posted here somewhere recently, but I found this from my searches. 

 

A quick read shows that this is a very interesting memory card, even to the point of making the 800 act like a 1200.  I sure didn't know that!  However, making it imitate a 1200 does require a wire to be soldered to the motherboard and also requires taking the 800 apart.  It doesn't look terrible, but if you're going to do this, an Incognito becomes more attractive.

 

For my two cents, a new board should have 52K + Mosaic banking.  I'd be a buyer, and especially if it will work with the 1008K board.

It will work with the 1008k Board (1056 Board).  However, since Axlon banking conflicts with the 4k bank used by Mosaic banking there would be problems...unless software is written to not write to any address from $CFC0 to $CFFF.  I'd love to have Axlon and Mosaic banking at the same time.  Unfortunately, they are incompatible.  If this personality card is configured such that RAM usage is disabled for the $C000-$CFFF range and a 4k Omnimon or Omniview ROM is placed on the flash memory this personality card would work fine.  The OS could also be slightly customized as per the Newell instructions.

 

I'll have to look into the 1200 configuration you mention.  While it would require a wire to be soldered, it would be something interesting to add...even if it conflicts with the goal of not having any modifications.

 

I am also considering having a place to solder wires to select the flash memory bank via a switch as I designed the card with 4 banks for flash memory.

 

I designed my card based on those instructions and here's my notes for the DIP switch configuration on this card:

 

Switches:
1  OS Chip Socket (Use original OS chips.)
2  OS Chip Socket (Use original OS chips.)
3  OS Use Flash Chip
4  Flash Chip -- Bank
5  Flash Chip -- Bank
6  C000 ROM -- Enable ($C000-$CFFF is ROM from flash chip)
7  C000 SRAM -- Enable ($C000-$CFFF is SRAM)
8  Mosaic Banking -- Enable

Note:  functions are enabled if switch is turned on.

 

[reifsnyderb]

@Bee sent me some information about the battery-backed up SRAM and I looked into it today.

 

First the good news: 

1.  The AS6C1008 chip will retain the data if VCC is as low as 1.5 VDC.  So, that's great.

2.  There will be plenty of space on the board for the management chip.

 

Now the bad news:

1.  The DS1210 chip to manage power to the SRAM is obsolete.  (Yeah, go figure.)

2.  New chips exist but they are at least $5 each.  (Many are around $10 each.)

 

I am thinking of putting a socket and a jumper in place for the management chip as well as a battery holder.

Edited September 27, 2022 by reifsnyderb

[reifsnyderb]

I started mapping out the Newell RAMROD card and got off on a tangent.  I designed a board as discussed earlier in this thread.

 

U1, U2, and U3 are for the original Atari ROMs.  (The ROMs can be flashed onto U4, instead.)

U5 is an AS6C1008 128k SRAM chip.  (Used for memory at $C000 - $CFFF)

U4 is a flash memory chip.  (Can contain up to 4 possible banks.  The OS and/or ROM for $C000 - $CFFF can be loaded here...such as Omniview or Omnimon.)

SW1 is an 8 switch DIP switch to configure the board.

 

SW1 can be set as follows:

 

Switches:
1  OS Chip Socket (Use original OS chips.)
2  OS Chip Socket (Use original OS chips.)
3  OS Use Flash Chip
4  Flash Chip -- Bank
5  Flash Chip -- Bank
6  C000 ROM -- Enable ($C000-$CFFF is ROM from flash chip)
7  C000 SRAM -- Enable ($C000-$CFFF is SRAM)
8  Mosaic Banking -- Enable

Notes:  Functions are enabled if switch is turned on.  There will be conflicts if all switches are on.  If $C000 - $CFFF is used for a ROM, Axlon banking would work fine.  If $C000 - $CFFF is used for SRAM, Axlon banking will conflict.

 

I kept the board to 2 layers so as to avoid that $35 engineering fee.  I think the engineering fee is $7 for this board.

 

There is space for something else to be added such as for battery backed SRAM.

 

Also, I looked into what it would take to emulate an Atari 1200XL.  It would take a lot of changes to pull out /S6 and /S7 and combine them into a select line.  Another DIP switch would have to be added, the data bus logic would have to be changed, the SRAM chip would have to be re-configured for 16k banks, and a few other changes.  Then a wire would have to be connected to the board from the PIA chip.  I think a more reasonable approach would be for me to add a place to jump /S6 and /S7 so that a RAM card could be created for the 3rd RAM slot to do this.  A 3rd slot RAM card would require /S6, /S7, and a wire connected to the PIA chip.

 

Here's the board...

 

 

I'll figure out the rest of the Newell RAMROD board soon.

 

 

Edited September 28, 2022 by reifsnyderb

[reifsnyderb]

Battery backed-up SRAM added.

 

I decided to use as DS1210 anyhow as they are available for cheap on e-bay.  There are 2 solder jumpers that should be soldered if the battery backed-up SRAM capability isn't used and the DS1210 is not installed.

 

[reifsnyderb]

On 9/27/2022 at 10:06 AM, Larry said:

Here is the 400/800 installation manual for the Mosaic 64K Select:

https://forums.atariage.com/topic/292320-helpatari-800-mosaic-64k-ram-card-docs/#comment-4295030

It's near the bottom of the thread.  Apologies if this link was posted here somewhere recently, but I found this from my searches. 

 

A quick read shows that this is a very interesting memory card, even to the point of making the 800 act like a 1200.  I sure didn't know that!  However, making it imitate a 1200 does require a wire to be soldered to the motherboard and also requires taking the 800 apart.  It doesn't look terrible, but if you're going to do this, an Incognito becomes more attractive.

 

For my two cents, a new board should have 52K + Mosaic banking.  I'd be a buyer, and especially if it will work with the 1008K board.

I was thinking some more about the 1200 comment.

 

If /s6 and /s7 were to be extended to a special board in RAM slot 2, I think an 800 could mimic a 1200.  There would need to be a special jumper board in RAM slot 1 that would not only send /s0 and /s1 to RAM slot 2 but also extend the /exsel from RAM slot 3 through RAM slot 1 to RAM slot 2.  A special jumper board would have to be installed in RAM slot 3 to extend the /exsel signal to RAM slot 1.  The RAM slot 2 board would handle all of the memory and shadow $D301.  Writes to $D301 could then control /exsel.  While we are at it, shadowing $D301 could bank up to 512k of memory without much of a problem.  All theory, but I think it would work.  It would certainly be a separate project.

 

On the downside, there is an added cost and I think Axlon banking is better because you can easily do 1MB or more.  But there is the XL compatibility factor.

Edited September 28, 2022 by reifsnyderb

[Mark2008]

I'd be interested in a reproduction- most likely.

 

I mean, we'll see what the budget says at the time, but the reason I'd be interested is I'd like to run Omnimon from a card, and without installing an incognito.

 

Incognito is a great card, from what I've read, but it's not easy to get soldering jobs done any more - people that used to say yes, are saying no....the feedback has been, is they cannot make money doing it- they say that people expect an install somehow warranties their equipment or blame them for other faults in 40 year old computers, and whatnot.

 

I cannot even get my ATR8000 recapped....been emailing folks that recap motherboards as a business, and they won't touch it - at least, so far, - at this moment, coming up empty.

I'll keep trying, however.   Or maybe I'll take a class on soldering.  I'm getting better at it, but not good enought to destroy my ATR8000.  I'll take a class first - then destroy it.

what...or be successful?  maybe? 

 

anyway, love to see this stuff for the 800.  Of course, what I want - the holy grail, would be the Bit3.   True 80 column.  or I saw the VBXE carrier card for the 800 - but wasn't clear to me if that still required soldering.

 

 

[+Stephen]

3 hours ago, Mark2008 said:

I cannot even get my ATR8000 recapped

Why do you want it recapped?  Is anything visibly bulging or leaking?  Please do not fall for the internet hype where everything needs recapped as maintenance as it is 100% not true.

[Bee]

Put me down for one of these when they are available.

 

Thank you

[Bee]

One request - add a 2 pin header for an external battery.  I'd love to try a supper cap on that. 

 

Never done hacking

[reifsnyderb]

3 hours ago, Mark2008 said:

I'd be interested in a reproduction- most likely.

I'll get the reproduction made up, too.  Maybe I'll work on it next week.  We'll see.  A big consideration with a reproduction is that the chips either aren't available or they are pricey.  That's a reason why I spec out newer chips.  Consider the memory.  If a 128k SRAM chip is less than $4, why should I put an authentic chip in the board if the authentic chip costs $20 on ebay?  But I do appreciate the concept of keeping everything authentic.

3 hours ago, Mark2008 said:

 

I mean, we'll see what the budget says at the time, but the reason I'd be interested is I'd like to run Omnimon from a card, and without installing an incognito.

I am interested in Omniview.  But Omnimon would work, too.

3 hours ago, Mark2008 said:

 

Incognito is a great card, from what I've read, but it's not easy to get soldering jobs done any more - people that used to say yes, are saying no....the feedback has been, is they cannot make money doing it- they say that people expect an install somehow warranties their equipment or blame them for other faults in 40 year old computers, and whatnot.

The problem is that the last person to touch something gets the blame when it fails.

3 hours ago, Mark2008 said:

I cannot even get my ATR8000 recapped....been emailing folks that recap motherboards as a business, and they won't touch it - at least, so far, - at this moment, coming up empty.

I'll keep trying, however.   Or maybe I'll take a class on soldering.  I'm getting better at it, but not good enought to destroy my ATR8000.  I'll take a class first - then destroy it.

what...or be successful?  maybe? 

Are you sure the caps are bad on the ATR8000?  I wouldn't mind taking a look at it...if for nothing else than making a reproduction board of it.    🙂

 

3 hours ago, Mark2008 said:

 

anyway, love to see this stuff for the 800.  Of course, what I want - the holy grail, would be the Bit3.   True 80 column.  or I saw the VBXE carrier card for the 800 - but wasn't clear to me if that still required soldering.

 

 

If I could get my hands on a Bit3, I'd have a reproduction board made in no time.   🙂

 

 

 

[Bee]

I hate the fact I can't "like" the section on the ATR8000 separately.

 

 

[Mark2008]

48 minutes ago, reifsnyderb said:

 

Are you sure the caps are bad on the ATR8000?  I wouldn't mind taking a look at it...if for nothing else than making a reproduction board of it.    🙂

 

If I could get my hands on a Bit3, I'd have a reproduction board made in no time.   🙂

 

 

 

 

No, I'm not sure it needs caps, I'm just under the impression that caps go bad eventually, and therefore one school of thought is to replace them as preventative maintenance.  It's not really the age of them - they'd probably survive another 40 years unused - the issue is I'm thinking about using the device regularly, and it's that return to many work hours of use, that'll put the final hours on them - I'm afraid.    Sure, if you get some time someday to look at it - just send me a pm.  There is no hurry on this one for me, I just want to press this device back into use eventually.  Meanwhile, I am swimming in 1050s.

 

I have never seen a Bit 3 come up for sale, well that may not mean much, I don't look all the time, but it seems quite rare.