TI-99/4A ranked as #13 best home computer!

[jrhodes]

Watch around the 13 minute mark:

 

[WhataKowinkydink]

Nice.  But LOL @ the Sinclair QL & Commodore Plus/4 being on the list at all 🤣

[Frozone212]

I think the p4 gets a bad rap. Yes, it's kinda crappy what commodore did but it made sense at the time. That they removed SID and sprites though, is inexcusable. However, it doesn't deserve to be bashed

[RXB]

TI99/4A at least it made number 13 on list.

[JB]

But it is #1 in our hearts.

[Willsy]

I always had a soft spot for the Plus/4. It's actually quite a nice little machine. They fixed a bunch of stuff with it and the Commodore 16 - namely they put in a decent BASIC, and fixed the appalling disk drive performance. The built in machine code monitor was really cool!

[Tuxon86]

I couldn't afford a ti99 setup when I was growing up, especially one with a Peb (heck I can't really afford one today 🙂 especially if I can't source a Peb locally, and yes I know about the Tipi but it isn't the same as owning the real setup).

 Maybe when the retro craze dies down a bit I may be able to finally own and keep one setup. I may even learn Forth on it 🙂 

 

[+OLD CS1]

35 minutes ago, Willsy said:

I always had a soft spot for the Plus/4. It's actually quite a nice little machine. They fixed a bunch of stuff with it and the Commodore 16 - namely they put in a decent BASIC, and fixed the appalling disk drive performance. The built in machine code monitor was really cool!

Not going to watch a video for a top-x list when all I want is the list (could not even be bothered to post the list in the description.)  Anyway, I always wanted a Plus/4, if only for BASIC 3.5 and the 1551 disk drive.  But the Commodore 128 should definitely rank above the Plus/4 and C16, as it incorporates most of the good qualities of those machines: faster drive access, BASIC 7.0, built-in ML monitor and sprite editor.  The only thing it really lacks is the color palette of the TED.

[WhataKowinkydink]

6 hours ago, OLD CS1 said:

the Commodore 128 should definitely rank above the Plus/4 and C16,

Agreed!  C128 was awesome

[digdugnate]

20 hours ago, OLD CS1 said:

Not going to watch a video for a top-x list when all I want is the list (could not even be bothered to post the list in the description.)  Anyway, I always wanted a Plus/4, if only for BASIC 3.5 and the 1551 disk drive.  But the Commodore 128 should definitely rank above the Plus/4 and C16, as it incorporates most of the good qualities of those machines: faster drive access, BASIC 7.0, built-in ML monitor and sprite editor.  The only thing it really lacks is the color palette of the TED.

I'll second (third?) this one- when we got our C128 it was a definite improvement imo over the C64 in featureset.

[+davidcalgary29]

On 10/18/2022 at 9:02 AM, Tuxon86 said:

I couldn't afford a ti99 setup when I was growing up, especially one with a Peb (heck I can't really afford one today 🙂 especially if I can't source a Peb locally, and yes I know about the Tipi but it isn't the same as owning the real setup).

 Maybe when the retro craze dies down a bit I may be able to finally own and keep one setup. I may even learn Forth on it 🙂 

 

I got into a discussion with a number of TI users at PRGE as I was caressing a PEB and admiring its aesthetic grace and prowess. They scowled and were not impressed, and told me how much more impressive the setup would be if it was in a modified PC desktop case. Can anyone explain why? As an Atari A8 devotee, I can only dream of what the XL expansion box would have looked like in its black and silver glory.

[+OLD CS1]

44 minutes ago, davidcalgary29 said:

They scowled and were not impressed, and told me how much more impressive the setup would be if it was in a modified PC desktop case.

Say wot, mate?

[+davidcalgary29]

Okay, a bit of an exaggeration.

 

But the general comments were that the PEB was not an optimal system, and that a modified desktop would be so much better. Is the PEB that bad?

[WhataKowinkydink]

Short of the Geneve I don't think I've ever heard of anyone using PC case instead of a PEB for 99/4A.  Strange....

[Tuxon86]

The Peb was great! It looked liked having a mini computer on your desk. Of all that generation personal computers, the TI-99/4A coupled with the peb was the most beautiful setup. 

[+save2600]

Obvious to us, the PEB was/is an excellent alternative to a chain-gang of external side peripherals that hog precious desktop space. Providing monitor support was icing on the cake. When I had one BITD, my only complaint was that the PEB wasn't deeper(!) as I used larger CRT monitors than TI's own 10", and the overhang really bugged. These days, it's just about perfect for those that use LCD screens.

 

Strong preference for legacy aesthetics, I wouldn't dream of removing the contents of a PEB and stuffing them inside some generic PeeCee tower case... if that's what the guys at PRGE were talking about. Much rather repair or replace the power supply in a PEB long before ever considering going that route. 

[+OLD CS1]

10 hours ago, davidcalgary29 said:

But the general comments were that the PEB was not an optimal system, and that a modified desktop would be so much better. Is the PEB that bad?

Perhaps not.  Maybe about as optimal as an S-100 expansion system, but I am not certain what criteria is being considered.  @Shift838 has a modern re-design of the PEB available, and there have been several replacements over the years, such as the CorComp Micro Expansion System and the more modern nanoPEB and CF7+.

 

The TI PEB has a monster power supply, and is bulky and heavy.  The fire hose cable is long and unwieldy, and it is easily knocked loose from the console.  But for the time, was there a better alternative?  Perhaps, but it does work.  I am not so quick to jump on, nor to push others onto, the "modern adaptations are better" bandwagon, nor stick to the "the old ways are the best."  Whatever is practical to you is what is best.

 

I once started a project to fit my Amiga 500 and accelerator into a tower, because towers were all the rage and the console took up a lot of desk space.  But I abandoned that as I decided that a tower was not really all-that for my applications.  Apart from a less behemoth power supply, just stand the PEB on end and boom!  Towerized!

[+arcadeshopper]

The biggest complaint I've heard is the firehose and trying to put too much drive in there that requires more power than it gives.. there have been many "hacked" pc cases over the years taking the backplane and putting it in a PC case.. however there are three issues

 

- power:  the peb doesn't do 5,12,-5  it does 20 and 9vdc

- safety:  the peb has a solid cage to hold cards so they dont fall out or tip, pc cases.. not so much

- cool: the PEB is cool looking

 

I have a stack of blown up TI cards where people took out the voltage regulators and wired across the 5v and 12v lines causing major issues when these cards were plugged into a normal pbox..  Their hacked box just used 12 and 5v .. 

 

anyway don't do that

 

838's backplane does that power conversion for you so you can use regular cards and a regular pc power supply 

[+Ksarul]

22 hours ago, WhataKowinkydink said:

Short of the Geneve I don't think I've ever heard of anyone using PC case instead of a PEB for 99/4A.  Strange....

There were actually several options available to do this BITD.

 

Ryte Data built the Micro-Stuph 4-slot backplane for a PC case. I haven't seen too many of them in the wild though. I have one of the backplanes in my collection, but not one of their assembled cases.

 

Probably the most widespread PC-box expansion back then was the Rave99 PE2. It came in two flavors: for a Geneve, or for a TI. The TI version could move the motherboard into the PC case using a specially designed replacement for the Flex Cable card and expected you to use a PC keyboard. Rave99 sold about 100-150 of these, and they are the ultimate source of most of the boards modified to eliminate the voltage regulators. The instructions said to carefully label the cards to identify this, but who follows instructions? Subsequent owners of the boards fried a lot of good cards that way. The backplanes in these did have a card cage, and the bus had the option to be extended by 34 additional connections (60+34). The only card that ever used the expanded bus was the special flex card designed for the PE2. The full spec for the expanded bus is in the manual.

 

There were also several three-slot expansions out there. Captain's Wheel did one, as did the Brisbane TI User's Group. The two bear a lot of similarity with each other, leading me to believe that one used the design of the other. As the plans posted in TIBUG were offered up for anyone to use and described the full development process, I suspect that it was first. I have one of the Captain's Wheel editions in my collection. These were both purpose-built to replicate the TI PEB functionality on a smaller footprint and didn't require a separate Flex Cable card. There was also a European box out there that was designed as a full PEB replacement (it looked a lot like a big blue plastic beer cooler). Although I was in Europe for many years, I only ever saw one of them outside of the German TI magazines.

 

Most other options were one-offs built by individual users (@Gazoo built several PC Towers for his systems).

 

 

[Willsy]

On 10/20/2022 at 3:32 AM, davidcalgary29 said:

Okay, a bit of an exaggeration.

 

But the general comments were that the PEB was not an optimal system, and that a modified desktop would be so much better. Is the PEB that bad?

The only annoying thing about the PEB is the fire-hose. Or, more specifically, the console end of the fire-hose. It's absolutely huge. And when you remove the cover, you find nothing more than 4 or 5 buffers. The PCB could have been much much smaller. I always found that bloody huge PEB connector poking out of the side of the 4A to be a right PITA. The box itself? Brilliant. 

[Tuxon86]

I'd like to get my hand on one without the PSU and fan to save on shipping (I'd replace it with something more modern). The Ti and the CoCo 2 are the only system I don't have a complete setup for. 

[matthew180]

It is all click-bait to me since there are ZERO "great" home computers. 😁  They all had problems in their own way, and we certainly have bashed the 99/4A design decisions plenty around here.  "Painful" is used a lot to describe using home computers, but we did not know it at the time since that is all we had.  Lists like this are arbitrary and home computers cannot be compared on any kind of consistent technical basis (IMO), they were all too different from one another.

 

The best thing about home computers is that they are all different, and some have strengths where others have weaknesses.  It is the uniqueness that makes them interesting and fun.

[+OLD CS1]

50 minutes ago, matthew180 said:

Lists like this are arbitrary and home computers cannot be compared on any kind of consistent technical basis (IMO), they were all too different from one another.

There is plenty of comparison to make, but "the best" is, as you said, arbitrary and subjective.  For instance, in another thread I mentioned that the VDP dedicated RAM architecture and the Commodore 64's VIC-II/6510 RAM access on alternate phases of the system clock are different solutions for the same problem -- which is better?

 

I do on occasion like to see what criteria people used for their rankings, but not ridiculously long videos worth.

[Geoff Oltmans]

I have to wonder what Commodore was thinking with the TED computers. At least in North America, nobody wanted them.

 

EDIT: It was also pretty clear by that time in the US that nobody wanted that badly a cost reduced computer either with other brands and were willing to pay extra to get the much better supported Commodore 64.

Edited October 23, 2022 by Geoff Oltmans

[Casey]

It's been pretty well documented I think that the TED series was meant to compete against the low cost Sinclair machines, at least when they were designed.  When Jack left Commodore, they were pushed into a different market, at the wrong price point, where they were ultimately not successful.