Chinese Cake Posted October 25, 2022 Share Posted October 25, 2022 I am aware of how consoles like the 3DO, PS1, Saturn, and N64 hardware and software are used to create, animate, and display 3D polygonal games and effects when applicable. Including what they lack (color blending and perspective correction on the Ps1 for example, while the N64 has a Z-buffer.) but I am not aware of what hardware or software features were included with the Jaguar that helped with 3D polygonal game design. For example, how was did the Jaguar handle blending? Did it have perspective correction in some form like a Z-buffer or a software solution? How did it generate polygons and move them? What's it solution to prevent large drops in frame rate? How did it clean the polygons, obviously it didn't have AA but some Jaguar games look less pixeled, blurry, or grainy than 3D games on other consoles unless a game goes heavy on textures which is a known weakness on the Jaguar. Did it have any filtering solution or an alternative? So on and so forth. For example from another site: Quote N64 pioneered graphical features that we take for granted on consoles: like AA, texture filtering, mipmapping, z buffer, perspective correction, and trilinear mipmapping. I'm not saying the Jaguar can do this, but I am wondering what the Jaguar had included with the hardware or software tools to aid in 3D game design in relation to consoles like the 3DO, PS1, or the Saturn. Not whether it did more or if it was more powerful because we know it wasn't. I'm just interested in the technical information regarding what kind of hardware it had for 3D games. I'm sure it includes impressive specs for the time, and that's what I want to learn about. I'm sure there are many people familiar with the Jaguars design, or even homebrew coders who can provide more insight into what the jaguar offered in this area. Thank you in advance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+CyranoJ Posted October 25, 2022 Share Posted October 25, 2022 Quote how was did the Jaguar handle blending? It didn't Quote Did it have perspective correction in some form like a Z-buffer or a software solution? No Quote How did it generate polygons and move them? In software Quote What's it solution to prevent large drops in frame rate? doesn't have one Quote How did it clean the polygons By writing zeros over the screen Quote Did it have any filtering solution or an alternative? No Quote So on and so forth. Are you seeing a pattern here? 4 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinese Cake Posted October 26, 2022 Author Share Posted October 26, 2022 1 hour ago, CyranoJ said: It didn't No In software doesn't have one By writing zeros over the screen No Are you seeing a pattern here? Yes, you're saying it didn't have hardware for 3D basically. I only asked this because a thread here led me to believe that it did, thank you for clarifying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagChris Posted October 26, 2022 Share Posted October 26, 2022 Holy christ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinese Cake Posted October 26, 2022 Author Share Posted October 26, 2022 8 minutes ago, JagChris said: Holy christ What happened? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagChris Posted October 26, 2022 Share Posted October 26, 2022 Nevermind Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agradeneu Posted October 26, 2022 Share Posted October 26, 2022 (edited) 8 hours ago, Chinese Cake said: Yes, you're saying it didn't have hardware for 3D basically. I only asked this because a thread here led me to believe that it did, thank you for clarifying. Well, compared to the Super NIntendo it appeared like a 3D juggernaut Both GPU and Blitter were designed to process and draw polygons. There were very fast RISC processor. You don't need that kind of processing power for 2D games, that would have been overengineering to ridiculous levels. Actually, Atari had designed a pure 2D machine, the Panther. But they scrapped that in favour for the Jaguar as they thought the market was moving to 3D. Do some proper in depht reading, like this: https://fabiensanglard.net/another_world_polygons_Jaguar/ Interview with John Mathieson, designer/engineer of the hardware: https://www.landley.net/history/mirror/games/mathieson.htm Or download the technical manual for Jaguar. I think you can answer all your question for yourself then. Edited October 26, 2022 by agradeneu 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinese Cake Posted October 26, 2022 Author Share Posted October 26, 2022 (edited) 19 hours ago, CyranoJ said: No I'm curious about this because in the FAQ for the site says that the Jaguar has Hardware support for Z-buffering, Gouraud shading, and transparencies? https://atariage.com/Jaguar/faq/index.html?SystemID=JAGUAR Edited October 26, 2022 by Chinese Cake 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agradeneu Posted October 26, 2022 Share Posted October 26, 2022 2 hours ago, Chinese Cake said: I'm curious about this because in the FAQ for the site says that the Jaguar has Hardware support for Z-buffering, Gouraud shading, and transparencies? https://atariage.com/Jaguar/faq/index.html?SystemID=JAGUAR Short answer: s..a..r..c..a..s..m Most members here are fed up with this topic. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+CyranoJ Posted October 26, 2022 Share Posted October 26, 2022 (edited) We should just link these threads to the previous one for the exact same thing and close them. Then link the final thread (if there is one, it feels like inifity) to the first in the chain. Edited October 26, 2022 by CyranoJ 1 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinese Cake Posted October 27, 2022 Author Share Posted October 27, 2022 So the solution to someone asking this question, is to give the impression that the jaguar has nothing because it's already been asked, instead of linking to a previous post(s) answering the question, which would result in the person spreading misinformation because they believed the lie, which ends up coming back here to bash the jaguar and to say it didn't have anything when it's not true, causing problems. Curious. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chilly Willy Posted October 27, 2022 Share Posted October 27, 2022 Sigh. Very briefly... Hardware: The Jaguar video has the ability to have a Z buffer. The JRISC processor known as the GPU has some matrix math operations that can be used for 3D calculations. The BLITTER can draw AFFINE mapped textured raster lines with gouraud shading and Z compare. That's pretty much it. Everything else is just software. Perspective correction has nothing to do with the Z buffer. The Z buffer is to avoid overdrawing pixels that are closer to the camera. As mentioned, the BLITTER does affine mapping, not perspective correct mapping. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinese Cake Posted October 27, 2022 Author Share Posted October 27, 2022 1 hour ago, Chilly Willy said: Perspective correction has nothing to do with the Z buffer. With how much games journalists over the years always join the two together when mentioning N64 3D games compared to Saturn and PS1, it's easy to get confused about that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+cubanismo Posted October 28, 2022 Share Posted October 28, 2022 On 10/26/2022 at 11:58 AM, Chinese Cake said: transparencies Others addressed it well above except this one: The jag can do translucent (What people usually mean when they talk about transparency in video games. Actual transparency doesn't require... anything) sprites in HW via the Object Processor, to some extent. Its limited 3D rasterization HW doesn't support translucency/blending. You'd have to do it manually from the JRISC CPUs. There's some mild sarcasm above, but nothing Cyrano said is inaccurate. I seem to be in a condescending mood today: If you aren't actually versed enough in 3D rendering to ask the right questions, the answers will probably just confuse you further, which isn't to say asking such questions is wrong. Just don't expect to immediately get it all laid out clearly and concisely in response. For a good overview of the Jaguar's dedicated 3D hardware, just read the Blitter sample code and related explanation in the software reference manual. But first, read a book on 3D graphics. Otherwise it probably won't make much sense. This one has been the defacto correct starting point for the 20+ years I've been involved in 3D computer graphics. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agradeneu Posted October 28, 2022 Share Posted October 28, 2022 (edited) 15 minutes ago, cubanismo said: Others addressed it well above except this one: The jag can do translucent (What people usually mean when they talk about transparency in video games. Actual transparency doesn't require... anything) sprites in HW via the Object Processor, to some extent. It's limited 3D rasterization HW doesn't support translucency/blending. You'd have to do it manually from the JRISC CPUs. There's some mild sarcasm above, but nothing Cyrano said is inaccurate. I seem to be in a condescending mood today: If you aren't actually versed enough in 3D rendering to ask the right questions, the answers will probably just confuse you further, which isn't to say asking such questions is wrong. Just don't expect to immediately get it all laid out clearly and concisely in response. For a good overview of the Jaguar's dedicated 3D hardware, just read the sample code and related explanation in the software reference manual. But first, read a book on 3D graphics. Otherwise it probably won't make much sense. This one has been the defacto correct staring point for the 20+ years I've been involved in 3D computer graphics. You are misquoting me, I did not wrote "transparencies" anywhere in this thread. Can you explain please?! Edited October 28, 2022 by agradeneu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agradeneu Posted October 28, 2022 Share Posted October 28, 2022 8 hours ago, Chilly Willy said: Sigh. Very briefly... Hardware: The Jaguar video has the ability to have a Z buffer. The JRISC processor known as the GPU has some matrix math operations that can be used for 3D calculations. The BLITTER can draw AFFINE mapped textured raster lines with gouraud shading and Z compare. That's pretty much it. Everything else is just software. Perspective correction has nothing to do with the Z buffer. The Z buffer is to avoid overdrawing pixels that are closer to the camera. As mentioned, the BLITTER does affine mapping, not perspective correct mapping. Don't forget about CRY color space 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+cubanismo Posted October 28, 2022 Share Posted October 28, 2022 21 hours ago, agradeneu said: You are misquoting me, I did not wrote "transparencies" anywhere in this thread. Can you explain please?! Fixed. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agradeneu Posted October 28, 2022 Share Posted October 28, 2022 1 minute ago, cubanismo said: That's weird, and I can't explain it. I quoted that from @Chinese Cake. I'll try to fix it tomorrow from my computer. The forum SW does various weird things when I post from my phone. yeah ok, np. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chilly Willy Posted October 30, 2022 Share Posted October 30, 2022 On 10/28/2022 at 2:26 AM, cubanismo said: For a good overview of the Jaguar's dedicated 3D hardware, just read the Blitter sample code and related explanation in the software reference manual. But first, read a book on 3D graphics. Otherwise it probably won't make much sense. This one has been the defacto correct starting point for the 20+ years I've been involved in 3D computer graphics. Very good and comprehensive. If you're just interested in 3D rendering in the old-school manner, Chris Hecker's articles on the subject are a great way to get started. https://www.chrishecker.com/Miscellaneous_Technical_Articles#Perspective_Texture_Mapping 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinese Cake Posted October 30, 2022 Author Share Posted October 30, 2022 14 minutes ago, Chilly Willy said: Very good and comprehensive. If you're just interested in 3D rendering in the old-school manner, Chris Hecker's articles on the subject are a great way to get started. https://www.chrishecker.com/Miscellaneous_Technical_Articles#Perspective_Texture_Mapping I'm aware of 3D, just not what the jaguar does, I opened the thread with knowing about the hardware of the other consoles just not the jaguars. But there seems to be something that happened previously preventing people from helping me learn about it outside some minimal posts in the thread. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chilly Willy Posted October 30, 2022 Share Posted October 30, 2022 Once you understand the principles of old-school 3D, you can then read the Jaguar Hardware manual with a new eye toward what the different parts can do to handle each part of the 3D pipeline. Using the GPU to do rotations, projections, and rasterizing the polys, using the BLITTER to do the raster line... but you need a firm grasp of the subject first or the hardware won't make any sense. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agradeneu Posted October 31, 2022 Share Posted October 31, 2022 15 hours ago, Chinese Cake said: I'm aware of 3D, just not what the jaguar does, I opened the thread with knowing about the hardware of the other consoles just not the jaguars. But there seems to be something that happened previously preventing people from helping me learn about it outside some minimal posts in the thread. B.S. BTW nobody owes you explanations for even basic things. escpecially if you complain and keep nagging like a spoilt kiddo. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinese Cake Posted October 31, 2022 Author Share Posted October 31, 2022 7 hours ago, agradeneu said: B.S. BTW nobody owes you explanations for even basic things. escpecially if you complain and keep nagging like a spoilt kiddo. The thread is was opened for learning and uncovering details, something you likely wouldn't know much about given you seem to, along with a few select other users, decide to post twitter memes instead of fostering discussion. You should also learn how to spell properly. With such immature dismissive posting it's a wonder why some users don't post anymore I see searching through other threads, some complaining about the same set of people and have done work on the hardware. Even at the start of this thread there was no attempt to foster discussion or to educate, instead ridicule and from the start, lie about the jaguars capabilities in that despite the defense, was not done in an obviously sarcastic manner. Hard to learn or discuss anything when the same group within the same echo chambers, kills every discussion or derails multiple threads. 21 hours ago, Chilly Willy said: Once you understand the principles of old-school 3D, you can then read the Jaguar Hardware manual with a new eye toward what the different parts can do to handle each part of the 3D pipeline. Using the GPU to do rotations, projections, and rasterizing the polys, using the BLITTER to do the raster line... but you need a firm grasp of the subject first or the hardware won't make any sense. Good mention of the Blitter, that's something I am currently looking into. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agradeneu Posted October 31, 2022 Share Posted October 31, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Chinese Cake said: The thread is was opened for learning and uncovering details, something you likely wouldn't know much about given you seem to, along with a few select other users, decide to post twitter memes instead of fostering discussion. You should also learn how to spell properly. With such immature dismissive posting it's a wonder why some users don't post anymore I see searching through other threads, some complaining about the same set of people and have done work on the hardware. Even at the start of this thread there was no attempt to foster discussion or to educate, instead ridicule and from the start, lie about the jaguars capabilities in that despite the defense, was not done in an obviously sarcastic manner. Hard to learn or discuss anything when the same group within the same echo chambers, kills every discussion or derails multiple threads. Good mention of the Blitter, that's something I am currently looking into. Look, I invested way too much time answering you. LIke I said, you can aswer most of your questions yourself, by investing some work, the topic is well documented. It is fine you are willing to learn, but there is no need for you to lecture or keep nagging at people you want to be educated by. Edited October 31, 2022 by agradeneu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
42bs Posted October 31, 2022 Share Posted October 31, 2022 2 hours ago, Chinese Cake said: You should also learn how to spell properly Maybe you should learn to ask questions right? You asked:"... features did the Jaguar include..." At least mine has still the same features it had when I bought it. No remote removal of features happened. The other point: It does not seem that you have read the manual but only marketing material (or JagChris posts ). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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