Commodore 64 confusion, does a US release database exist?

[goldenpp72]

Hey all, I've been trying to educate myself on this platform, and I find the more I try to learn about it, the more confusing it becomes to the point I figured maybe I should just ask. I understand they had numerous versions of the platform, and that it didn't take off so much in the US in contrast to other regions, but obviously it existed and had proper US releases. I have been trying to get information on what games actually had formal US releases, as well as what the game boxes/etc looked like in contrast to other regions, but I am not having any luck. Does anyone have a good resource as such, or maybe insight on why there may not be one? I guess I'm used to this being pretty easy, but definitely not so here, thanks for any help!

[carlsson]

I would check retrocollector.org. While it probably isn't complete, it is built up by actual collectors. The claim that the C64 "didn't take off" in the US seems like a gross understatement. However it lasted much longer in Europe, which are more price sensitive markets so both PC compatibles and the video game consoles that emerged a few years later had slightly less impact than in America. As for different versions, first you had the brown/grey breadbin, then you had the off-white C64C. In the last few years there were a couple more versions that may only have been sold in Europe because ... we're cheap here.

[+OLD CS1]

1 hour ago, carlsson said:

The claim that the C64 "didn't take off" in the US

Wait... people actually say this shit??

[goldenpp72]

4 hours ago, carlsson said:

I would check retrocollector.org. While it probably isn't complete, it is built up by actual collectors. The claim that the C64 "didn't take off" in the US seems like a gross understatement. However it lasted much longer in Europe, which are more price sensitive markets so both PC compatibles and the video game consoles that emerged a few years later had slightly less impact than in America. As for different versions, first you had the brown/grey breadbin, then you had the off-white C64C. In the last few years there were a couple more versions that may only have been sold in Europe because ... we're cheap here.

 

Well, I don't have sales data, but almost all the information I find it based on non US sources and most of the pricing/info I can find is also not based on that, which is usually an indicator that it's pretty obscure, or just not fondly remembered, but based on what I'm seeing it seems like a good platform so it's definitely confusing. I know my fiancee's father owns own though, stored in an attic forever it seems. Thank you for the site reference, I'll take a look at it now, I've never been here before but it seems pretty large scale off hand!

Edited October 31, 2022 by goldenpp72

[The Usotsuki]

The C64 absolutely took off.  It was the Amiga that bombed here.

[Chinese Cake]

10 hours ago, goldenpp72 said:

Hey all, I've been trying to educate myself on this platform, and I find the more I try to learn about it, the more confusing it becomes to the point I figured maybe I should just ask. I understand they had numerous versions of the platform, and that it didn't take off so much in the US in contrast to other regions, but obviously it existed and had proper US releases. I have been trying to get information on what games actually had formal US releases, as well as what the game boxes/etc looked like in contrast to other regions, but I am not having any luck. Does anyone have a good resource as such, or maybe insight on why there may not be one? I guess I'm used to this being pretty easy, but definitely not so here, thanks for any help!

 

everygamegoing.com has a huge collection of release dates for systems including the C64, 8 bits, consoles etc. 

[goldenpp72]

1 hour ago, The Usotsuki said:

The C64 absolutely took off.  It was the Amiga that bombed here.

Well, I just read this page and it puts the figure around 13 million WW, which is not a lot in the modern sense, a definitely a vast amount of them not in the US. 

 

https://www.pagetable.com/?p=547

 

This isn't meant to be a slant, I just did an ebay search for US software and it yielded no results on half of what I input for US releases, and a few for others, so I don't think my initial assessment of 'didn't really take off' is wrong if referring to it by console metrics, if considering it as a single PC metric, that's a great figure, but also kind of irrelevant in the modern sense since you can't exactly bring its software forward, so it's effectively limited as a console in terms of modern day purchasing, but I'm still learning about the system so pardon any misinformation. 

Edited October 31, 2022 by goldenpp72

[+OLD CS1]

Estimated 12.5m, the last 4.5m in Europe after 1989.  Until around the end of 1990 I could walk into almost any retailer and pick up a C64 title, and some places were still selling new units and disk drives.  Almost every family I knew had one, even if they were moving to PC (often the kids, my age, inherited and used the 64 while their dad got the new PC.)  In my experience, the C64 did very well in the USA.  It did, however, seem to die a quick death here after 1991 as '486s of the time were very affordable and Win 3.1 started taking root in the home.

[The Usotsuki]

That's because everyone pirated the software...

[goldenpp72]

9 hours ago, OLD CS1 said:

Estimated 12.5m, the last 4.5m in Europe after 1989.  Until around the end of 1990 I could walk into almost any retailer and pick up a C64 title, and some places were still selling new units and disk drives.  Almost every family I knew had one, even if they were moving to PC (often the kids, my age, inherited and used the 64 while their dad got the new PC.)  In my experience, the C64 did very well in the USA.  It did, however, seem to die a quick death here after 1991 as '486s of the time were very affordable and Win 3.1 started taking root in the home.

 

Well keep in mind, that systems like the Wii U, or Vita, which both sold more, are considered catastrophic failures that single handedly sunk the dedicated console and portable market for their respective creators, and the Dreamcast which sold about 10 million, ended with Sega leaving the hardware market entirely. As someone who is primarily versed in console collecting, that's the metric I use when I consider if something took off here. When browsing Youtube, online, or any other venue I seem to run into, it almost always seems like Europe that has the nostalgia for this platform, which is why it's a struggle to find any info on the US specific side of things. The line absolutely seems like it mattered elsewhere in a big way, it just seems near impossible to find much on the US side which is frustrating, though that one website helped quite a bit.

 

None of that is meant to discredit the platform though, if I didn't like it I'd not be delving deeper into it, It's a pretty incredible device for the time based on what I'm finding, I just wasn't in my cognitive years during its relevance that's for sure.

Edited October 31, 2022 by goldenpp72

[zzip]

1 hour ago, goldenpp72 said:

Well keep in mind, that systems like the Wii U, or Vita, which both sold more, are considered catastrophic failures that single handedly sunk the dedicated console and portable market for their respective creators, and the Dreamcast which sold about 10 million, ended with Sega leaving the hardware market entirely. As someone who is primarily versed in console collecting, that's the metric I use when I consider if something took off here. When browsing Youtube, online, or any other venue I seem to run into, it almost always seems like Europe that has the nostalgia for this platform, which is why it's a struggle to find any info on the US specific side of things. The line absolutely seems like it mattered elsewhere in a big way, it just seems near impossible to find much on the US side which is frustrating, though that one website helped quite a bit.

 

None of that is meant to discredit the platform though, if I didn't like it I'd not be delving deeper into it, It's a pretty incredible device for the time based on what I'm finding, I just wasn't in my cognitive years during its relevance that's for sure.

Keep in mind things didn't sell as much back then.   These days when Playstation consoles can top 100 million, a 10 million selling console will be seen as a failure.

 

The C64 was easily the most popular 8-bit computer in the US, and I don't think it was close.    But also sales of 8-bit computers took off as the game market was crashing, these computers never sold as many units as the consoles before them.   So a few million C64s would be successful for what was a new market, but will look miniscule by today's standards.

[goldenpp72]

6 minutes ago, zzip said:

Keep in mind things didn't sell as much back then.   These days when Playstation consoles can top 100 million, a 10 million selling console will be seen as a failure.

 

The C64 was easily the most popular 8-bit computer in the US, and I don't think it was close.    But also sales of 8-bit computers took off as the game market was crashing, these computers never sold as many units as the consoles before them.   So a few million C64s would be successful for what was a new market, but will look miniscule by today's standards.

Oh of course, just it means in terms of collecting and information, it's very hard to come by, though there may be other variables I don't quite understand since it's easier to find information on say, the Atari 5200 which didn't exactly perform great, but there is a lot of info out there. Even at the time though the NES eventually sold I think 60-70 million units in contrast, which was a staggering success for the time.

Edited October 31, 2022 by goldenpp72

[+OLD CS1]

2 hours ago, goldenpp72 said:

As someone who is primarily versed in console collecting, that's the metric I use when I consider if something took off here

Making conclusions on a past market based upon a current environment is a bad habit to be in.  The market of today was only dreamed of in the 80s.  Though trite, "that was then, this is now," comes to mind.

[goldenpp72]

21 minutes ago, OLD CS1 said:

Making conclusions on a past market based upon a current environment is a bad habit to be in.  The market of today was only dreamed of in the 80s.  Though trite, "that was then, this is now," comes to mind.

Well you can compare it to the other platforms of the time as well, like the 2600, or the NES.. Or the Sega Master system, etc, all of which sold as much or more, even at the time it wasn't big as a gaming platform in the US especially, but it was big for a home computer of the time. Computers now being standardized a bit kind of confuses the concept as obviously computers broadly sell way more, but also with far more options with all criss crossing the same software.

 

There really is no direct comparison, but the comparison is drawn because as a collector, I note it seems near impossible to find information on it, and that is due to sales volume, even if a large success in its specific category at the time. I can't really add much more to the discussion there really, but I would say most people born in the 80s in the US likely never ran into, or heard of the platform, because the sales data vs the amount of people in the country would back that up relative to other electronic devices of the time. That doesn't make it any less important for its role in home computers however. If we compare it to the Sega Master System in the US which sold likely similarly, many people in the 80s and especially 90s would never even know it existed, as many still think the Genesis was the first Sega system in the US.

 

I compare it somewhat to the concept of say, the Steam Deck, which many people ridiculously thought would take a swing at Nintendo's market share of all things, and it barely did anything relative to that, but for what it is, is a huge success within the portable PC market. It all depends on the angle I say, and this one is definitely different, and doesn't fit quite neatly in any single bin, so it is a bit complex to try and compare, but it is frustrating to research more than any platform I have ever tried to that's for sure.

Edited October 31, 2022 by goldenpp72

[+OLD CS1]

2 minutes ago, goldenpp72 said:

it seems near impossible to find information on it

I do not understand this proposition.  This is one of the most documented systems I know of.  What, exactly, are you missing?  If you are talking about the list of US software releases, that might be a shame for collectors but still irrelevant to calculation of a system's success.

3 minutes ago, goldenpp72 said:

I would say most people born in the 80s in the US likely never ran into, or head of the platform[...]

That is completely irrelevant.  I was born in the 70s.  I was never exposed to most of the machines which started the Homebrew era or Home Computer Revolution in that decade.  That does not make them any less significant, documentation or otherwise.

10 minutes ago, goldenpp72 said:

There really is no direct comparison, but the comparison is drawn because[...]

...you can just push on through to try to make the ends connect.

 

Perhaps I lack collector sensibilities, but I cannot see how the rest of your post does not swing back around to my position.

 

[+OLD CS1]

9 hours ago, The Usotsuki said:

That's because everyone pirated the software...

Not to mention, a shit-tonne of people just threw out their Commodore stuff, or gave it away to people like me who hoard it and your grubby meat-beaters will never touch my precious.  If you really want to get hold of whatever is left, just wait for more of my generation to die.  (Like hell; I am taking it all with me, dirty collectorses.)

[goldenpp72]

8 minutes ago, OLD CS1 said:

I do not understand this proposition.  This is one of the most documented systems I know of.  What, exactly, are you missing?  If you are talking about the list of US software releases, that might be a shame for collectors but still irrelevant to calculation of a system's success.

That is completely irrelevant.  I was born in the 70s.  I was never exposed to most of the machines which started the Homebrew era or Home Computer Revolution in that decade.  That does not make them any less significant, documentation or otherwise.

...you can just push on through to try to make the ends connect.

 

Perhaps I lack collector sensibilities, but I cannot see how the rest of your post does not swing back around to my position.

 

 

Usually you can measure a platforms outcome quite a bit by how much is documented regionally. As example, the SMS has a huge showing in Brazil, and much of the software breakdown and exclusives, etc for the region are very well documented and segregated for easier digestion, it makes it so people can understand what the market is (or was) like for that platform for that region. Now, if you step into a platform like say, the Neo Geo console, it's also pretty difficult to get definitive information on what games were released for it in the US specifically because the obscurity drove people to kind of import, mail order, etc, and because it had low sales penetration pretty much everywhere, the documentation for it is quite a bit more limited, mostly driven by a small handful of passionate enthusiast. The C64 likely has an extremely large homebrew/information breakdown if referring to many European territories, but the US specific breakdown seems extremely limited, which implies it did not have quite the presence here as it might have elsewhere.

 

Keep in mind, it would seem only a relatively small fraction of that 12 million units actually occurred in the US, so I'm not really sure why it's such a point of contention to say that in the US, the platform was not exactly prolific in contrast, as if it were, I'd be swimming in information and not resorting to ask people for a single resource that helps breakdown the platforms US specific existence, I don't live in Brazil but can easily source such information for the SMS there, which is why it's not something I've crossed often. I would bet if I lived in say, Japan, it would be more difficult to find region specific information on the original Xbox as well, despite the fact that platform was an overall success. It isn't meant to be diminishing, just something of a complexity for a collector to try and delve into. If I'm mistaken and there is in fact a large batch of US information based websites filled with history, information and retail releases, box arts, all that, then by all means I would love to see it. The site posted earlier helped a lot in terms of getting a list, but many of the games on my own list are not present there, and I'm not sure if that means the site missed them, or if those games indeed only released outside of the US region. Attempting to cross reference that information has led to a total failure so far.

 

I have only begun trying to dig into this platform the last couple weeks however, so by no means am I trying to pretend I am the resident expert on the matter, but we all start somewhere and I have never struggled quite as much to find information on basically anything until now.

[+x=usr(1536)]

1 hour ago, goldenpp72 said:

Well you can compare it to the other platforms of the time as well, like the 2600, or the NES.. Or the Sega Master system, etc, all of which sold as much or more, even at the time it wasn't big as a gaming platform in the US especially, but it was big for a home computer of the time.

Right, but that's still comparing sales of a home computer to sales of consoles.  The markets they were aimed at were different, and the people buying them had different reasons for choosing one over the other.

 

Also bear in mind that the NES and SMS both post-dated the C64, with neither one considered to have been direct competition at the time.

57 minutes ago, goldenpp72 said:

Usually you can measure a platforms outcome quite a bit by how much is documented regionally.

Perhaps, but all that really suggests is how well a particular system may have done in a given territory.  It's not going to give an accurate picture of the machine's overall lifespan.

57 minutes ago, goldenpp72 said:

I don't live in Brazil but can easily source such information for the SMS there, which is why it's not something I've crossed often.

Right, but at the time Brazil had an economy that was extremely protectionist when it came to importing goods.  That coupled with lax copyright laws spawned market conditions that were unique to Brazil, such as comparatively-high percentages of homegrown cloned / bootlegged hardware (and software) being sold openly.  In most ways, it's enough of a corner case that it's not indicative of what was going on elsewhere.  About the best conclusion that could be drawn was that it was popular in Brazil, but extrapolating that particular success out to other regions is not going to give an accurate picture of what led to that success (or failure).

 

I will say, however, that I'm also confused as to how you're unable to come across the information you're looking for regarding the C64, and I'm saying that as an Atari guy.  As @OLD CS1 mentioned, it was one of the best-selling home computers of the era with documentation to match.  The question you're looking for an answer to isn't really clear to me, but perhaps reframing the question might help.

[goldenpp72]

29 minutes ago, x=usr(1536) said:

Right, but that's still comparing sales of a home computer to sales of consoles.  The markets they were aimed at were different, and the people buying them had different reasons for choosing one over the other.

 

Also bear in mind that the NES and SMS both post-dated the C64, with neither one considered to have been direct competition at the time.

Perhaps, but all that really suggests is how well a particular system may have done in a given territory.  It's not going to give an accurate picture of the machine's overall lifespan.

Right, but at the time Brazil had an economy that was extremely protectionist when it came to importing goods.  That coupled with lax copyright laws spawned market conditions that were unique to Brazil, such as comparatively-high percentages of cloned / bootlegged hardware being sold openly.  In most ways, it's enough of a corner case that it's not indicative of what was going on elsewhere.  About the best conclusion that could be drawn was that it was popular in Brazil, but extrapolating that particular success out to other regions is not going to give an accurate picture of what led to tat success (or failure).

 

I will say, however, that I'm also confused as to how you're unable to come across the information you're looking for regarding the C64, and I'm saying that as an Atari guy.  As @OLD CS1 mentioned, it was one of the best-selling home computers of the era with documentation to match.  The question you're looking for an answer to isn't really clear to me, but perhaps reframing the question might help.

Essentially the information I would like to find is what retail releases the platform had that were specific to the US, so as example, I believe Outrun and Outrun Europa are both releases for the C64, and they released on many platforms in the US. However, checking eBay isn't a reliable method because it might still not have been released in the US even if sold by a US seller, and if you can't find a specific reference for its release or, a specific box art, or something, it becomes pretty difficult to peg. So far from what I've seen the information on the US specific aspect is pretty difficult to hone in on, but pretty vast if spoken of broadly, but that could just be looking in the wrong places as well. The one website posted earlier does not seem to list Outrun Europa as a release that occurred in the US, and if so, that's all I'd really need to know, I just lack confidence in taking it so definitively when the information is hard to corroborate. 

 

Sega fans have a site or two that will list the data about one game and then list what regions it released in, and even accompany it with what the box arts and differences were in each, which is handy for sure and makes it seem mostly definitive that you're getting the right info. 

[+OLD CS1]

@goldenpp72 Your conclusion is still a poor conclusion resulting from a flawed methodology.  I think the problem you are facing is that no one ever really cared about the region thing in the home computer space.  I mean, yes, there were some titles which were European-only releases, and I know there were some titles which were US-only as each side of the pond had different tastes.  But the region thing was nowhere near the "problem," if you will, like that of consoles, largely, I would think, because we lacked region lock-outs.  For the most part, PAL games worked in North America, sometimes with changes during the cracking process and sometimes without.

 

This may be an opportunity to make a name for yourself by producing unique and original research, and thus provide data to others which you are used to having available in the console space.

[1980gamer]

On 10/31/2022 at 2:11 PM, goldenpp72 said:

Well you can compare it to the other platforms of the time as well, like the 2600, or the NES.. Or the Sega Master system, etc, all of which sold as much or more, even at the time it wasn't big as a gaming platform in the US especially, but it was big for a home computer of the time. Computers now being standardized a bit kind of confuses the concept as obviously computers broadly sell way more, but also with far more options with all criss crossing the same software.

 

There really is no direct comparison, but the comparison is drawn because as a collector, I note it seems near impossible to find information on it, and that is due to sales volume, even if a large success in its specific category at the time. I can't really add much more to the discussion there really, but I would say most people born in the 80s in the US likely never ran into, or heard of the platform, because the sales data vs the amount of people in the country would back that up relative to other electronic devices of the time. That doesn't make it any less important for its role in home computers however. If we compare it to the Sega Master System in the US which sold likely similarly, many people in the 80s and especially 90s would never even know it existed, as many still think the Genesis was the first Sega system in the US.

 

I compare it somewhat to the concept of say, the Steam Deck, which many people ridiculously thought would take a swing at Nintendo's market share of all things, and it barely did anything relative to that, but for what it is, is a huge success within the portable PC market. It all depends on the angle I say, and this one is definitely different, and doesn't fit quite neatly in any single bin, so it is a bit complex to try and compare, but it is frustrating to research more than any platform I have ever tried to that's for sure.

So in my close circle of friends, half of them had a VCS/2600  only 1 friend had an Intellivision like me. In the acquaintance group.  Again many had the VCS, 4 had an Intellivision.

A little later on... I knew 1 person with a 5200 and I now had a Colecovision and 3 others also had a CV.

 

By the mid 80's all but 2 of my friends had a C64 and 1 that didn't was always at my house playing games with me. My acquaintances grew around the C64 "borrowing each others games"

A couple had NES's and I had 1 friend with an SMS.

 

As far as availability.  You could get software at Sears, Walden Books, Software Etc. and a bunch of others.  Not to mention the toy stores.  KB and Toys R Us had tons!

Lets not forget the magazines.  Compute!, Compute Gazette for the 64, Ahoy and others.

 

I had 3 subscriptions to C64 mags and would check the racks at every chance to see what else was available.

 

I cannot believe sales were that low.  3 million intellivision sold.  Hard to find one in my area...  Couldn't spit without hitting a C64.

 

Game sales were a fraction of what they should have been I am certain.  I would buy a game on my own from time to time.  But we would pool resources and buy games to "share" amongst us.

 

My favorite cart was the Final Cart III.  One of my acquaintances "acquired" it.  Slime ball....  LOL  

I then got the Super Snapshot IV  Also a great cart!  

 

1990 I packed up all my C64 stuff.  2 computers, 3 1541's and tons of accessory's, 3K+ games and gave it all to my nephew.

At the same time, I tossed all my Intellivision and Colecovision game boxes and put the loose carts in boxes with the consoles.

 

I now had an IBM compatible and other interests   

 

1996 I moved to Madison WI for work.  I was exploring the local shops and came across a used video game store and grabbed an Intellivision with a few games.

I then found the Intellivision Lives website...  Hooked again!   Still playing Intellivision.  I have THE C64 MAX or Maxi?  but that is not nearly the same as my old setup... Still glad to have it!

 

My first computer was a TI99/4A.  I had to beg for a long time to grease those wheels.  My very best friend had one and I loved it!

I still have that, but I only use Classic99 these days.

 

So with ALL this above...  I still use my first Console and First Computer.  Even though much better stuff has come and gone.  I guess you never do forget your first love(s).

 

 

 

[zylon]

can't remember what year I got it, but C64 did have many of the then, Master System, era games. I had the Sega Collection long box set with at least 5 titles, including Outrun, and a graphically wonderful Space Harrier. Box art was the same as SMS artwork, using the blue outlined white squares background.

Growing up, it was one of few systems I could afford to buy for, as tapes and disks cost far less than fancy cartridge games. Atari 2600 Battlezone still retailed for $45 near me, while I could get c64 games, often near $5, up into late 80's.