Video: Games That Push The Limits of the Atari 7800

[zzip]

34 minutes ago, Defender_2600 said:

Okay, zzip.

 

Yeah, and?   The 8-bit version is using 320x192 mode.  Look at how much cleanerthe lines are.   The 7800 was supposed to deliver that resolution, but in color!

 

37 minutes ago, Defender_2600 said:

2 hours ago, zzip said:

The pixels are too wide, it's difficult to add a lot of detail.

 

Okay, zzip.

 

 

 

That's a stylistic choice.

 

Comparing Apples t0 Apples:  7800 left, NES right:

 

7800 looks way too stretched and harsh due to the 160-pixel width.   The NES version is closer to the arcade look and more pleasing on the eyes.

 

Everything in the 7800 version looks rather blocky, the ghost eyes are square.  The NES version on the right has rounded eyes, more detail, dots that look like dots, not dashes.    Again the higher res in the NES version is more pleasant looking.   I know there is a 7800 Pac Man homebrew that does the game in 320, and it looks spectacular! but that didn't help the system during its commercial life, did it?

 

160 pixel modes were old-hat by the time the 7800 finally released and made 7800 games look dated compared to the competition.

 

 

[Jaden (JRH)]

"160 pixel modes were old-hat by the time the 7800 finally released" 🤓🤓🤓

Also, tell that to the C64 devs during that time who still made fantastic looking games despite the limitations.

[+mksmith]

On 12/11/2022 at 11:13 AM, Defender_2600 said:

 

Thank you. I also really like the animated color changes before he is defeated.

 

An old video but the final version has more colors and a more complete animation:

 

I still hope to get back to that one! Marco did a magnificent job with the Doh head it would be a shame to not finish it eventually!

[+Defender_2600]

5 hours ago, zzip said:

Yeah, and?

And, I'm wasting my time here.

 

 

5 hours ago, zzip said:

The 8-bit version is using 320x192 mode.  Look at how much cleanerthe lines are.

Do you really think I don't know? It is ONE COLOR.

For the official Atari 8-bit version, the 320 monochrome mode was chosen because it was judged overall better than the result that could be obtained with the 160 mode with 4 - 5 colors.

 

I'm showing you, again, that it's useless to talk about resolution without mentioning all the other technical specifications that go into designing graphics, therefore number of colors, palette, number of sprites, size of sprites, size of tiles etc. Here is the updated comparison with the 8-bit color version:

 

 

 

 

5 hours ago, zzip said:

The 7800 was supposed to deliver that resolution, but in color!

Indeed the 7800 version was born in 320 mode but, when the game engine was ready, the 160B mode was chosen, 4bpp - 12 colors per sprite / tile (!), and without any restriction on the size of the sprites / tile (!). Basically a stock 7800 can display 4bpp graphics that a NES + MMC5 can't and in any case on NES you would still be stuck at 4 colors per tile, stuck at 16 x 16 pixels. And precisely because of these technical limitations of a stock NES, it was necessary to opt for a grayscale version of the game. Remember that, next time you mention the NES 256 resolution, along with its other limitations with its few colors and few and little sprites, with that little palette, obnoxious flicker, etc.

 

 

 

 

5 hours ago, zzip said:

That's a stylistic choice.

Absolutely not! This is a Zelda graphical conversion from SNES to 7800 and, as you can read in the image below, I'm using 160B, 4bpp - 12 colors per sprite/tile mode. So, like I said before, you can't do that on the NES. By the way, on the NES you don't even have the necessary colors with its small palette.

 

 

 

5 hours ago, zzip said:

Comparing Apples t0 Apples:  7800 left, NES right:

 

7800 looks way too stretched and harsh due to the 160-pixel width.   The NES version is closer to the arcade look and more pleasing on the eyes.

 

Absolutely no! You keep insisting, but you really don't have the necessary skills to make and show graphics comparisons. All the screenshots you are showing have the wrong aspect ratio, the 7800 160 mode shows approximately 1.7 NTSC pixel aspect ratio while the NES shows approximately 1.2 NTSC pixel aspect ratio. And the lower 7800 160 resolution is compensated for by the color depth, the number of sprites and all the other strengths already mentioned above.

 

Also pretend to ignore what everyone here knows, the original 7800 version of Donkey Kong does not display the graphical potential of the 160 mode at all (although at least graphically it is far better than the Atari 8-bit version). Also, those who really know and love the arcade version of Donkey Kong really wouldn't want to waste their time with the NES port whose gameplay has little in common with the arcade version. And have you ever heard of the 7800 Donkey Kong XM/PK masterpiece? I'll show you a comparison with the correct aspect ratio:

 

 

 

 

5 hours ago, zzip said:

 

Everything in the 7800 version looks rather blocky, the ghost eyes are square.  The NES version on the right has rounded eyes, more detail, dots that look like dots, not dashes.    Again the higher res in the NES version is more pleasant looking.   I know there is a 7800 Pac Man homebrew that does the game in 320, and it looks spectacular! but

 

This is ridiculous. On the 7800 today we have over a hundred different Pac-Man games, we have almost every version that ever existed, including Hack versions, hundreds of mazes, tons of game options, 320 mode versions... and you're talking about the two - three NES versions, with few colors, wrong colors, wrong maze graphics, bad gameplay and worse audio than the Atari 2600...

 

And again your screenshots, again with wrong aspect ratio and also wrong colors. Don't like the graphics of the 7800 versions in 160 mode? Well, for those too I've updated the graphics, let me show you:

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Speaking of high resolution, the 7800 320 mode (320×240) shows square pixels (pixel aspect ratio: 0.9 NTSC and 1.0 PAL) and can replicate the correct aspect ratio of the arcade graphics. For example, the NES with 256 horizontal pixels by 240 vertical pixels display wide pixels and therefore wide sprites/tiles compared to arcade graphics / 7800 320 mode (same goes for ColecoVision, Sega Master System, CoCo 3, SNES, etc., for these systems the pixel aspect ratio is approximately 1.2 NTSC and 1.4 PAL). Also, when you have only 240 vertical pixels it may be useful to place a extra display (scores, status, etc.) on the right side of the main game but in this case the play field will be compromised if you have only 256 horizontal pixels rather than 320 horizontal pixels.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

5 hours ago, zzip said:

 I know there is a 7800 Pac Man homebrew that does the game in 320, and it looks spectacular! but that didn't help the system during its commercial life, did it?

Are you still living in the past?

 

 

5 hours ago, zzip said:

160 pixel modes were old-hat by the time the 7800 finally released and made 7800 games look dated compared to the competition.

I know, you still haven't gotten over the 5200 failure, sorry. But fortunately now there is new Atari VCS!

 

 

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Okay, as a wise friend of mine will think, this has become an exercise in futility. I am absolutely not interested in changing your opinion, however it is clear that you have nothing to teach the 7800 community, we love the system for its uniqueness, its strengths, nostalgia and much more. And many of us also love other systems including NES and Atari 8-bit, but without having the constant need to say things like "the 5200 was dated for its time".

 

Anyway, I'm really done with this. Bye.

 

[+Defender_2600]

2 hours ago, mksmith said:

I still hope to get back to that one! Marco did a magnificent job with the Doh head it would be a shame to not finish it eventually!

 

Are you joking? I don't want to rush you but when you feel inspired you absolutely must complete it!

[+Pat Brady]

*deleted*

[+Defender_2600]

5 minutes ago, Pat Brady said:

 

FTR the Atari 8-bit computer version of PETSCII Robots got a color upgrade a year ago. It's not as colorful as the 7800 version, but it appears to be in high res.

 

Yes, I've mentioned it in a later post, however the color version is in low resolution.

[+Pat Brady]

23 minutes ago, Defender_2600 said:

we love the system for its uniqueness, its strengths, nostalgia and much more. And many of us also love other systems including NES and Atari 8-bit, but without having the constant need to say things like "the 5200 was dated for its time".

 

Agree 100% with this, but I also think it's okay for people to have been disappointed with the 7800 (or any other system) at the time, or now, or to prefer other machines in specific ways, or in general. The 7800 is a strange system, clearly designed to be inexpensive and 2600-compatible, and some compromises had to be made. Nowadays some of the compromises are charming and make a good programming challenge, but I can easily see how an 800XL user in 1984 (or 1986) would have seen them differently.

 

2 minutes ago, Defender_2600 said:

Yes, I've mentioned it in a later post, however the color version is in low resolution.

 

Yeah, I saw that after I posted, and deleted my post. You are correct (and I was wrong) about the resolution: it's definitely 160.

[+mksmith]

1 hour ago, Defender_2600 said:

 

Are you joking? I don't want to rush you but when you feel inspired you absolutely must complete it!

Always learning new things so hopefully I can go back and apply something to get it finished.  If it wasn't for those damn balls 🤪

[zzip]

14 hours ago, Defender_2600 said:

Indeed the 7800 version was born in 320 mode but, when the game engine was ready, the 160B mode was chosen, 4bpp - 12 colors per sprite / tile (!), and without any restriction on the size of the sprites / tile (!). Basically a stock 7800 can display 4bpp graphics that a NES + MMC5 can't and in any case on NES you would still be stuck at 4 colors per tile, stuck at 16 x 16 pixels. And precisely because of these technical limitations of a stock NES, it was necessary to opt for a grayscale version of the game. Remember that, next time you mention the NES 256 resolution, along with its other limitations with its few colors and few and little sprites, with that little palette, obnoxious flicker, etc.

yes you can always make a low res image look better by adding colors for shading and anti-aliasing.   But for a game designer the wide pixels present a bunch of issues.   If you need to rotate your images 90 degrees,  that's easy if you have square pixels, but if you have the elongated pixels that 160x200/240 gives you, they aren't going to look right rotated, you have redraw it yourself.   You can't easily have fancy fonts unless it's large text.    It's also hard to create detailed sprites unless they are large sprites..  160 is a mode that really should have been dead and buried by the late 80s (except for portables) 

 

14 hours ago, Defender_2600 said:

Absolutely no! You keep insisting, but you really don't have the necessary skills to make and show graphics comparisons. All the screenshots you are showing have the wrong aspect ratio, the 7800 160 mode shows approximately 1.7 NTSC pixel aspect ratio while the NES shows approximately 1.2 NTSC pixel aspect ratio. And the lower 7800 160 resolution is compensated for by the color depth, the number of sprites and all the other strengths already mentioned above.

All I do is take screenshots off the web and place them side by side.   Amazingly according to you the 7800 screenshots, and only the 7800 screenshots need "special processing".   My screenshot represents what 7800 Donkey Kong looks like when I play it, it's what it looks like when I see others play it on youtube.  I've never seen it look like your screenshot.   What is there some kind of conspiracy to only post incorrect 7800 screenshots and videos online?

 

14 hours ago, Defender_2600 said:

Also, those who really know and love the arcade version of Donkey Kong really wouldn't want to waste their time with the NES port whose gameplay has little in common with the arcade version.

Every home version of Donkey Kong was imperfect.    Back then we couldn't run Mame, so we just had to pick our favorite of the flawed ports.   I don't like playing the NES version either, but visually it's closest to the arcade.

 

14 hours ago, Defender_2600 said:

Also pretend to ignore what everyone here knows, the original 7800 version of Donkey Kong does not display the graphical potential of the 160 mode at all

Not the point.   This is the game Atari released back in the 80s and helps create the perception that 7800 was inferior to NES.   I'm sure the programmers could have done a lot better, but they didn't.

 

14 hours ago, Defender_2600 said:

21 hours ago, zzip said:

 I know there is a 7800 Pac Man homebrew that does the game in 320, and it looks spectacular! but that didn't help the system during its commercial life, did it?

Are you still living in the past?

You said you couldn't understand why I found the 7800 disappointing back then.   I explained it.   You spent the rest of the time trying to disprove an opinion by altering screenshots and using games that did not exist in the 80s.   That is called moving the goalposts.    If those homebrews existed back then, I would have been blown away by the systems.   Since they didn't it's irrelevant to what I posted.

 

14 hours ago, Defender_2600 said:

I know, you still haven't gotten over the 5200 failure, sorry. But fortunately now there is new Atari VCS!

I don't care that much about the 5200.   I just pointed out all the bad business decisions Atari made with the 5200 and 7800 that took them from the biggest videogame company to a distant 3rd behind Nintendo and Sega in just a few years.    The new VCS isn't going to bring them back

[+Pac-Lander]

On 12/13/2022 at 11:15 AM, Defender_2600 said:

What is this adaptation of LTTP on the 7800 screen from? Was this done recently and by whom (if you don't mind me asking)? I haven't seen this before, but thanks for posting!  👍

[+Defender_2600]

10 hours ago, Pac-Lander said:

What is this adaptation of LTTP on the 7800 screen from? Was this done recently and by whom (if you don't mind me asking)? I haven't seen this before, but thanks for posting!  👍

 

I'm not aware of it but it just looks like a mockup or an alteration of a screenshot... 

 

Just kidding , I started working on it several months ago, as an experiment, and recently shared a preview here. This is a graphics conversion from the SNES and that graphics are already running on real 7800 hardware. I can't add anything else for the moment.

[+Pac-Lander]

10 hours ago, Defender_2600 said:

 

I'm not aware of it but it just looks like a mockup or an alteration of a screenshot... 

 

Just kidding , I started working on it several months ago, as an experiment, and recently shared a preview here. This is a graphics conversion from the SNES and that graphics are already running on real 7800 hardware. I can't add anything else for the moment.

Wow! This is fantastic. 🤩

The 7800 is really capable of so much graphically. Incredible work, kudos!!!

[Corby]

Wouldn't mind that 1942