7800 Spacewar!

[+Mitch]

Chad's CC2 firmware doesn't handle 4K A78 files?  Sounds like something which should be easy to add/fix.  Otherwise add an ORG $E000 before the A78 header section and re-assemble.

 

Yeah, there's no 4k 7800 mode yet because there are no 4k 7800 games... until now.

 

You actually don't even need to recompile, just double the bin to 8k.

However, if you could include the plain bin as well as the a78 version in you zip file, I'm sure those that don't have access to a hex editor would appreciate it.

 

Mitch

[walter_J64bit]

I dont have my 7800 any more and you had to go and make nice looking port of spacewars

[EricBall]

I've just added the gravity and thrust code so the ships now move. Download now! (CC2 8K bin included.)

Edited April 18, 2005 by EricBall

[cschell]

Hi,

 

The CC2 7800 4K Bankswitching scheme is now available. The CC2 does not use .A78 files though, only raw bin files.

 

For those trying to run the 8K.BIN included in the zip above, it's not signed so it won't pass the encryption check. Use 78QUICK as a startup if you wish to run it.

 

Thanks Eric for supporting the CC2.

 

Chad

[kyle]

I have walter's 7800 bahahahahaha all mine!!!

[EricBall]

I have added the fire code to Spacewar! No collision detection though so you will have to judge whether you hit yourself. The gravity well (singularity / star) is also displayed (and looks quite nice).

 

I am asking for anyone and everyone to give this version a try and give me some feedback. Some items I'm interested in:

 

- bug reports (I've only played via MESS)

- shot speed, thrust, gravity & rotation speed: too fast or too slow

- ship & shot size

 

PS The 8K bin for CC2 owners is now signed. Thanks Chad for pointing out a78sign will work without the a78 header.

[+Mitch]

I just tested it out on the real thing and it's looking good!

 

A few comments; The relative speed between the turning and the top speed of the ship seems to be just a bit off. I think the turning speed is OK but you might want to slow down the ships. It's real easy to get your ship going too fast and out of control. Bear in mind that I haven't played the original so I don't know how it's supposed to be "officially". Gravity might be a touch too strong as well. The sizes seemed reasonable, and I didn't notice any obvious bugs.

 

By the way, Chad has written a 4K 7800 driver for the CC2 now. So if it's easier to make a 4K bin, the CC2 now supports it.

 

Mitch

[Rob Mitchell]

Bear in mind that I haven't played the original so I don't know how it's supposed to be "officially"

 

MESS supports PDP emulation and the 1960's Spacewar game. (unfortunately the keyboard functions for left / right turn are backwards).

 

Eric's Spacewar demo

 

I just tried it too! The Sun looks truely PDP like!

 

See my PM about concerns about the shot angle, distance and speed.

 

The gravity feels just right ..

 

I think that alot more thrust should go into motion .. to avoid crashing into the Sun and eachother. (ie slow down the action and increase the strategy.)

 

I think the ships could be 1/3 smaller which with other changes will increase the gameplay arena.

 

As it is right now .. I think the gameplay is too much like 2600 Space War (which has less gravity) and Vectrex Space Wars (too fast, no real gravity element) and not enough like PDP Spacewar gameplay.

 

These two ships should either utilize or fight the sun's gravity gradient to establish an orbit to reach the enemy or wraparound to get the enemy. Not shoot off a barrage of lucky shots and knock off the enemy all the way across the screen.

 

The shots should be much smaller and their velocity should be much slower. I wish the shots momentum would be relative to the velocity of the spacecraft which fired. On PDP emulation the shots fired as the ship orbits close around the sun make for some pretty cool shot patterns.

 

Gosh .. it is hard to imagine that this game was programmed 41 years ago (1962, the year I was born!) and it is so much fun! I look forward to your final game program!

 

One more thing: Are you gonna reset the ships to their starting positions (or some random spots) after every successful kill?

 

Rob Mitchell, Atlanta, GA

[EricBall]

cut & paste from a PM

First I want to say Thank you for the awesome work you have done so far on this great classic.  Not only that but your also starting what I hope is a very nice and long trend of into some 7800 homebrewing.  

 

I do have a few things that came to my mind about Space War as I was playing this latest build.

 

First eveything looks great! You have somehow managed to capture a very vector like effect better than I have seen from any other raster based system!

 

However,  Lighten that singularities gravity a bit ehh?  At full thrust is can be nearly impossible to escape the thing and the only way to do it currently is to slingshot your self around it.

 

Increase the turning speed of the ships a bit more...they move like a couple of Kenworth trucks!

 

Shot life is way too long.  The shots should only go one about a full screen across max.  Right now they appear to cover the screen twice?

 

Thanks for the compliments & feedback. Yeah, I've been thinking myself that gravity is a little strong. I'll play with it a little and see if I can come up with something better. Although, with the gravity at its current level you have to pay attention to it... Turning speed is also something I will tweak slightly, though I don't think I want to make the ships turn on a dime - too easy. I'll also decrease the shot life.

 

Okay that is all for the physics aspect of the game and gameplay.

 

Now for a small idea. I know the original didn't have color.  But would it be possible to alternate a yellow and white or orange and white effect on the singularity?  What about making the ships a different color?

 

What if you could make the ships be a certain color, and then have one side of them get lit up in respect to the sun or singularity?  hehe...

 

Just some thoughts.  The color bit could even be selectable so that die hard fans of the original wouldn't have to play that mode if they didn't want.

 

What are you going to do for sound?

 

Okay..enough questions from me.  You wanted some feedback...and there you go.  Again, great work! Perhaps I too can learn this 6502 code someday?

 

I don't think I'm going to do too much with color, though I might do some stuff with different shades of grey. Sound - don't you know there's no sound in space? Seriously though, once I get the physics nailed down the next challenge will be collision detection, especially since it looks like I'm going to have to attempt to code for bit/pixel accuracy instead of simple X/Y bounding boxes.

[EricBall]

MESS supports PDP emulation and the 1960's Spacewar game.  (unfortunately the keyboard functions for left / right turn are backwards).

If someone can point me to the "ROM" for the PDP-1 Spacewar (other than through FilePlanet) I would appreciate it.

 

I just tried it too!  The Sun looks truely PDP like!    

 

See my PM about concerns about the shot angle, distance and speed.

 

The gravity feels just right ..  

 

I think that alot more thrust should go into motion .. to avoid crashing into the Sun and each other.  (ie slow down the action and increase the strategy.)  

 

I think the ships could be 1/3 smaller which with other changes will increase the gameplay arena.

 

The player can deliver alot of shots .. fill the screen with shots .. which takes away from the strategy aspect of the game.  Maybe the shots should go slower and shorter?

 

As it is right now .. I think the gameplay is too much like 2600 Space War (which has less gravity) and Vectrex Space Wars (too fast, no real gravity element) and not enough like PDP Spacewar gameplay.

 

These two ships should either utilize or fight the sun's gravity gradient to establish an orbit to reach the enemy or wraparound to get the enemy.  Not shoot off a barrage of lucky shots and knock off the enemy all the way across the screen.

 

The shots should be much smaller and their velocity should be much slower.  I wish the shots momentum would be relative to the velocity of the spacecraft which fired.  On PDP emulation the shots fired as the ship orbits close around the sun make for some pretty cool shot patterns.

 

Gosh .. it is hard to imagine that this game was programmed 41 years ago (1962, the year I was born!) and it is so much fun!  I look forward to your final game program!

 

One more thing:  Are you gonna reset the ships to their starting positions (or some random spots) after every successful kill?

 

Rob Mitchell, Atlanta, GA

It's interesting that you are okay with gravity & want more thrust, while Mitch wants less gravity and lower top speed. Smaller ships is something I've considered and may try. Would one active shot per player address your concerns about strategy?

 

The shots are supposed to be some kind of light-based weapon, so they are unaffected by the ship's velocity. (Yes, that's also easier to code.)

 

I haven't decided yet how I'm going to handle kills etc.

[ubersaurus]

This? I've attached the pdp-1 rom. Good luck getting it to start going though, I can't figure it out...unless you just want to look at the code.

 

I haven't had the chance to check out your spacewar yet, yesterday was a busy day. I'll try tonight though.

 

My thoughts:

Yeah, turning is a bit slow. A little faster would be nice.

Secondly, I think you need to slow down the speed and acceleration of the ships. The PDP-1 version thats playable online(linked in my sig), they move alot slower, which I think makes for a better game.

I also belive that the bullets move awfully fast. Although I'll grant making them light weapons to avoid giving them all the velocity stuff is a nice workaround, they're just too fast. I'd say slow em down. And limited ammo. It forced you to make your shots count.

 

Having no sound is fine with me-but a visual indicator that you're using your rockets, or at least a fuel indicator are needed.

 

That triangle ships gone on alot of opponents in this game. The phallic ship from the pdp-1, the enterprise of the arcade, and now a snowman

spacewar.zip

[DracIsBack]

Eric - do you think you might do another project after this? A game that makes use of 128K or more would be nice. :-)

[Rob Mitchell]

If someone can point me to the "ROM" for the PDP-1 Spacewar I would appreciate it.

 

Ubersaurus posted the correct PDP Spacewar BIN .. You put it in the ROM directory under PDP1 ... Then execute this dos command in your MESS directory: [c:mess pdp1 spacewar] .. The keys: ASDF controls the fat ship and UDLR controls the skinny ship. Unfortunately the L and R keys are backwards .. so it's kinda awkward. Plus you gotta get those ships moving to avoid the sun and then you can try the firing of multiple shots. Hyperspace is by pressing both the turn buttons simultaneously. You can only do this three times and then you will blow up (ie lose that match) and the game will reset to begin another match. Also there is a finite number of missiles you can fire .. maybe a finite amount of fuel per round.

 

There is no scoring in this version. Must be an early one .. 1962?

 

Rob Mitchell, Atlanta, GA

[Rob Mitchell]

It's interesting that you are okay with gravity & want more thrust, while Mitch wants less gravity and lower top speed.  Smaller ships is something I've considered and may try.  Would one active shot per player address your concerns about strategy?

 

Don't change a thing until you have played the PDP1 Spacewar under MESS emulation.

 

In comparison to the PDP1 emulation:

 

I think the rotation rate is right.

 

The gravity is just perfect.

 

I agree with less speed .. but more thrust should be necessary to achieve newtonian, momentum results.

 

When the guys entered the PDP1 spacewar code just a few years ago (1999?) they increased the size of the two ships .. so don't be fooled by the large size of the ships in the MESS emulation.

 

One shot is what 2600 Space War does .. But PDP1 Spacewar allows for 4 .. and maybe 5 missiles on the screen simultaneously. I don't know about the max total number of missiles as I don't have anyone to play this game with me. It really is a 2 player game.

 

When interviewed the original 1962 programmers wanted the missiles to follow Newtonian mechanics (ie gravity) .. but ran out of time and effort and just decided to leave it as it is .. but the vectors of the missiles are a result of the motion of the ship that fires.

 

Give the PDP1 Spacewar a try .. remember .. this game was play tested in 1962 and there was not much change in it through the sixties and early seventies.

 

I wonder if the game got spoiled with Cinematronics version .. faster gameplay .. faster quarters? The Vectrex version suffers from this and gravity is not a factor. Atari 2600 SW tries .. but fails .. Ships do not reset after each kill which means you can shoot your opponent multiple times and gravity is not strong at all.

 

Actually a top speed does sound reasonable now that I think of it.

 

Eric: I surely do hope that you make the gameplay as PDP like as possible. Color is not important. But please keep outerspace black though!

 

Rob Mitchell, Atlanta, GA

[ubersaurus]

If someone can point me to the "ROM" for the PDP-1 Spacewar I would appreciate it.

 

Ubersaurus posted the correct PDP Spacewar BIN .. You put it in the ROM directory under PDP1 ... Then execute this dos command in your MESS directory: [c:mess pdp1 spacewar] .. The keys: ASDF controls the fat ship and UDLR controls the skinny ship. Unfortunately the L and R keys are backwards .. so it's kinda awkward. Plus you gotta get those ships moving to avoid the sun and then you can try the firing of multiple shots. Hyperspace is by pressing both the turn buttons simultaneously. You can only do this three times and then you will blow up (ie lose that match) and the game will reset to begin another match. Also there is a finite number of missiles you can fire .. maybe a finite amount of fuel per round.

 

There is no scoring in this version. Must be an early one .. 1962?

 

Rob Mitchell, Atlanta, GA

 

Thank God someone explained how to get that running, I never could

 

Personally I think some stars would be good for the background. The reason they were there in the original was to better gauge your position on screen-and I think that'd be a good addition, if you've got the space.

[ZylonBane]

Eric:  I surely do hope that you make the gameplay as PDP like as possible.  Color is not important.  But please keep outerspace black though!

Huh? The descriptions of PDP Spacewar I've read stated pretty clearly that it does have a starfield. An astronomically accurate one, in fact.

 

http://www.wheels.org/spacewar/net_discussion.html

[ubersaurus]

BTW: the java emulated verson of spacewar has 32 bullets per ship, and about 30 seconds worth of constant thrust before you run out of gas.

 

The astronomically correct background was the 3rd version of the background. It started as an all black one, but they felt it didn't work well, then put up random stars in the background. From there it went to having the "Expensive Planetarium" astronomically correct background, which would slowly move through the background, making one revolution per hour.

[Rob Mitchell]

Huh? The descriptions of PDP Spacewar I've read stated pretty clearly that it does have a starfield. An astronomically accurate one, in fact.

 

Actually the inside joke is that 2600 Space War space background is GREEN! Let me restate it!

 

FOR GOD's SAKE .. AND THE LOVE OF MIKE .. PLEASE KEEP OUTER SPACE BLACK!

 

The Vectrex is appropriately B&W .. until you put the BLUE overlay up. So I / we play Vectrex Space Wars without the overlay.

 

A starfield is not really necessary .. but the original 1962 programmers put it in and later animated it! Does the Vectrex version have background stars? I cannot remember.

 

Rob Mitchell, Atlanta, GA

[JB]

The Vectrex is appropriately B&W .. until you put the BLUE overlay up.    So I / we play Vectrex Space Wars without the overlay.

I play ALL my Vectrex games overlay-less.

[EricBall]

Eric - do you think you might do another project after this? A game that makes use of 128K or more would be nice. :-)

 

128K? I'd get agoraphobia But if I ever get back to Leprechaun, I'll try to put in as many levels (2K each) as possible.

[EricBall]

Made a bunch of tweaks and a fix to the thrust & velocity tables. (Thanks to Rob Mitchell for pointing out that shots down didn't go straight down.)

 

Changes (based on your feedback):

- decreased gravity

- increased thrust

- decreased top speed

- increased speed of rotation

- decreased shot speed and range

 

I've also played a bit with the PDP-1 SpaceWar! under MESS, and I found the thrust very low, even lower than my previous version. I simply found it very difficult to fight gravity. Although my version may be more "arcade like", I think that makes it more fun.

 

Some other notes:

- Due to how the 7800 works, I will not be able to duplicate the Expensive Planetarium in the 4K version (not saying there will be a >4K version thuogh). I will however resist temptation to make the background something other than black.

- Just like the original, touching the singularity will destroy the ship. (Although my version will have a larger collision area than the absolute center.)

- The current version only allows two shots total onscreen at once, with a third shot replacing the first. This is a temporary side effect. I haven't decided how to handle shots yet. (I'm also not inclined to limit shots or fuel, though I have a wicked idea for hyperspace if that gets implemented.)

 

Oh, found a different PDP-1 Spacewar (via Google Groups)- a punchtape image! Uncompress the attached file into the mess/software/pdp1 subdirectory. Select PDP-1 then the spacewar.rim file in the MESSGUI and press Ctrl-Enter to load (this takes a while).

pdpspacewar.zip

[Rob Mitchell]

(I'm also not inclined to limit shots or fuel, though I have a wicked idea for hyperspace if that gets implemented.)

 

I am still trying to categorize the various versions of Spacewar. Might there be two versions:

 

Arcade: Kill or be killed

 

PDP1: Maneuver .. make your best shot .. run out of ammo and/or fuel and you're likely to be a victim of the other.

 

Might you be able to make two versions selectable by an intro screen?

 

BTW: I could not tell any difference in gameplay between the two BINs of Spacewar that work with MESS. One is 16k and the other is 15k. Also if you rename this spacewar.rim to spacewar2.bin .. then you can execute it quickly with the previously mentioned MESS command. It still suffers from the backwards control .. and the ships are the larger size .. unlike what they were when the game was played in the 1960s.

 

Also I tried out your latest BIN .. looks good. And I got it to execute with Chad's new 7800_4k mode that he put together just for this game.

 

Rob Mitchell, Atlanta, GA

[ubersaurus]

Made a bunch of tweaks and a fix to the thrust & velocity tables. (Thanks to Rob Mitchell for pointing out that shots down didn't go straight down.)  

 

Changes (based on your feedback):  

- decreased gravity  

- increased thrust  

- decreased top speed  

- increased speed of rotation  

- decreased shot speed and range  

 

I've also played a bit with the PDP-1 SpaceWar! under MESS, and I found the thrust very low, even lower than my previous version. I simply found it very difficult to fight gravity. Although my version may be more "arcade like", I think that makes it more fun.  

 

Some other notes:

- Due to how the 7800 works, I will not be able to duplicate the Expensive Planetarium in the 4K version (not saying there will be a >4K version thuogh).  I will however resist temptation to make the background something other than black.

- Just like the original, touching the singularity will destroy the ship. (Although my version will have a larger collision area than the absolute center.)

- The current version only allows two shots total onscreen at once, with a third shot replacing the first.  This is a temporary side effect.  I haven't decided how to handle shots yet.  (I'm also not inclined to limit shots or fuel, though I have a wicked idea for hyperspace if that gets implemented.)

 

Oh, found a different PDP-1 Spacewar (via Google Groups)- a punchtape image!  Uncompress the attached file into the mess/software/pdp1 subdirectory.  Select PDP-1 then the spacewar.rim file in the MESSGUI and press Ctrl-Enter to load (this takes a while).

 

Well, that was the thing about the pdp-1 version. You shouldn't try to fight gravity. You should try to make it work for you. Added alot of strategy, that did. Increased thrusting power and decreasing gravity simply gives us 2600 spacewar's insane movement physics, just on a lower scale.

 

The star being deadly is good though.

 

No limitations on weapons?

[Rob Mitchell]

Well, that was the thing about the pdp-1 version. You shouldn't try to fight gravity. You should try to make it work for you. Added alot of strategy, that did. Increased thrusting power and decreasing gravity simply gives us 2600 spacewar's insane movement physics, just on a lower scale.  No limitations on weapons?  

 

Agree! Agree! Agree! Like I said earlier .. PDP1 Spacewar was playtested in 1962!!

 

Apollo missions .. specifically Apollo 13 were all about gravity and energy. Once in orbit the Space Shuttle has just enough fuel to maneuver within its orbit. A game in which the players may more easily defy gravity with unlimited fuel and energy for weapons is not a strategically based Spacewar!

 

I need to rewire a keyboard to use two Starplex Controllers to play MESS PDP1 Spacewar!

 

Here's another emulation of spacewar. This one simulates a phosphor glow of the vector monitor.

 

http://www.vandewettering.net/sourcecode.html

 

Go to the UPDATE compiled version download near the bottom. Notice that the ships have not been resized in this version which has the moving star map and correct key responses !!

 

Rob Mitchell, Atlanta, GA

[Godzilla]

just a late 'awesome' to say thanks for supporting the 7800... hopefully we will eventually see some more support for this great system.