1400XL / 1450XLD L1, L2 LED differnces noticed

[KLund1]

Hi, I was looking at my 1983 Atari catalog with the 1400's in it. I then started looking at similar pictures online. Then I notices something.

Some 1400XL have the L1, L2 LED's, and some do not.

The same for 1450XLD's.

I attached a couple examples of each below.

Anyone else noticed this in the past?

What would the 'correct' configuration for each system?

I know these are prototypes and they have a tenancy to be different from unit to unit. But if these were put on the market back then what would they have for the LED layout?

Just wondering out loud.

[KLund1]

Really, No one has a comment on this?

Sorry for my bad spelling in the title.

 

[+kheller2]

I’m not sure there is a correct configuration, as you have noticed it varies.  
I can take a look at the schematics and see what was intended. It’s a similar question for the floppy drive:  how many, how did they work etc.  there are several variations.  

[+hunmanik]

Well, you got one like.   I looked over various pictures to further confirm what you noticed, indeed I had not noticed before.  Thanks for pointing it out!

 

From further looking at photos in literature from the time, it's not obvious to me whether one was an earlier design and the other a later design, or what.

[KLund1]

5 hours ago, kheller2 said:

I can take a look at the schematics and see what was intended. It’s a similar question for the floppy drive:  how many, how did they work etc.  there are several variations.  

Yes please, Thanks. The schematics would seem the best place. 

I was just thinking that the there might be a difference between the 1450 and Tong boards for the LED's but the 1400 differences are a little more confusing.

Let us know what the schematics show when you can. Obviously this is not time sensitive....

[Rybags]

The logical thing would have been to not have them if bigger memory configurations were needed since they're driven by PORTB outputs.

So my theory would be that one without would be a later proto.

[KLund1]

Interesting Rybags. Could elaborate on what PORTB output is. Also the brochure list them as only having 64Kb. I have not read anything over the years to suggest they might do any sort of  bank switching scheme for these machines( though that would have been very cool at the time!)

I'm hoping the schematics might shed some light on this.

[+kheller2]

I’ll take a look over the next few days.  The LED thing is kind of funny to me because I swear there was a game that toggled the lights on a 1200XL depending on the active player number.  
 

The photos in the catalog are obviously from 1983.  The 14xx line was killed/abandoned in late November or December and only the 1450 TONG resurrected in early 1984.  The only officially known memory banking was on the first “130XE” branded 800XLF based board in the Fall of 1984. (This is also funny to me given the released 130XE board looks nothing like a XLF, and the 65XE is called a 900XLF.)

[+kheller2]

According to the only available schematics, the 1400 and 1450 board did not have PB2-6 wired (they are absent), and the LED board only shows one LED wired.

The TONG board has L1 and L2.   Keep in mind that some 1400XL's might be using 1200XL tops.

 

Having said that, there are enough 1450XL boards floating around that one could actually just take a look at one and see what is traced on the board.  Taking a look at mine, L1 and L2 pins are not connected at the header, on the 1400 board I used to own, it is not wired either.

 

I do not own a TONG.

 

Someone send me a TONG. 😎

 

Having said all of that, the 1983(4?) Next Generation Atari Catalog shows L1/L2 on a 1450XLD with availability October 1983.  Which makes no sense given the 1450 board design evidence to date didn't have them.  Marketing at its finest.  But, that also mean there were plastics made to look like that.  I think it looks better with L1/L2.  Perhaps these pictures were taken in early 84, but I swear it was originally a 1983 catalog and the release dates talk about 1983.

 

I wonder what the DOS 3 usage supplements for a 1450XLD show... hmm.... hard to see the images are small.

 

BTW -- as of DOS3, the 1450XLD used a double sided double density drive -- but each side was a different drive number.  And somehow DOS 3 knows its a 1450XLD ... 

 

 

 

[KLund1]

On 3/1/2023 at 4:57 PM, kheller2 said:

According to the only available schematics, the 1400 and 1450 board did not have PB2-6 wired (they are absent), and the LED board only shows one LED wired.

Great to know !!

 

On 3/1/2023 at 4:57 PM, kheller2 said:

The TONG board has L1 and L2.

Better to know !! Why the upgrade/difference. Perhaps because the 600/800 did not have them, and it would be an 'upgrade/feature'??

 

On 3/1/2023 at 4:57 PM, kheller2 said:

Keep in mind that some 1400XL's might be using 1200XL tops.

This make seance. Some 1400 were returned to stores as 1200's for cash by Atari employees. Or that it was the only bezel/cover they had laying around the bench at the time to finish their build.

 

On 3/1/2023 at 4:57 PM, kheller2 said:

Taking a look at mine, L1 and L2 pins are not connected at the header, on the 1400 board I used to own, it is not wired either.

What does your 1450 board show as the label or version? 1450   C024355-001 ? I would consider this the "1450 short board", The TONG the long board, yes/no?

 

On 3/1/2023 at 4:57 PM, kheller2 said:

Having said all of that, the 1983(4?) Next Generation Atari Catalog shows L1/L2 on a 1450XLD with availability October 1983.  Which makes no sense given the 1450 board design evidence to date didn't have them.  Marketing at its finest.

There are two versions of this 1983 catalog. One with, one without the $1.00 price in the cover right top corner. I only have the one without. Perhaps there is difference if the pictures used? But thinking of the marketing dept, they might have used a mock-up model machine for the pictures, and used a 1200 keyboard since the 1400/1450 bezel/covers were not made yet. (yes lots of guesses)

On 3/1/2023 at 4:57 PM, kheller2 said:

I wonder what the DOS 3 usage supplements for a 1450XLD show... hmm.... hard to see the images are small.

What supplements? What picture/image? Please show.

On 3/1/2023 at 4:57 PM, kheller2 said:

BTW -- as of DOS3, the 1450XLD used a double sided double density drive -- but each side was a different drive number.  And somehow DOS 3 knows its a 1450XLD ...

WHAT ??!!??!! Where is this documented?!? Examples, info, more, please!!!

(I did see in the catalog that 'Dual Density feature implemented by DOS III ...Estimated Availability third Quarter 1983'. Is this already in DOS III or was it to be a later 'update' III.D?)

The Drive numbers would have to be ID'd by the small daughter card for a '1450 short board'. From the breadboard picture I saw in here a long time ago, I do not recall any wiring that would do that. Though I could be way off on this. A fully functional FD daughter card is rarer then a 1450. (which are rarer the Apple I's, (A1=200, 1450<50) by the way. But these do not capture the same publicity, or similar auction prices they should. Probably the later 7 year introduction gap) I'm rambling.....    

[Rybags]

PORTB output:

 

We have PIA PORTA and PORTB.  Original allocation with 400/800 was that these were entirely used as inputs for 4 directional bits of 4 joysticks (default setting, that is, you can still set as outputs for situations that need it e.g. homebrew printer interface)

With the 1200XL we lost the right cart and 2 controller ports which freed up 8 bits that are PORTB.

 

Original 1200XL spec saw the lowest 2 bits controlling OS and Basic.  The next 2 significant bits were used for 2 status LEDs but when the 800XL came out these became unassigned in a sense since it doesn't have those LEDs (though the code to detect relevant keystrokes and change the LEDs remained in the OS for a long time after)

When the 130XE came out, the 2 bits controlling the LEDs were reassigned to control which extended memory bank was made available to the CPU or ANTIC (depending on the 2 next significant bit settings)

 

So my theory back there is that maybe the decision to use these bits for RAM selection was made earlier, which could have made the LEDs irrelevant in these computers.

Edited March 4, 2023 by Rybags

[_The Doctor__]

130XE did such things for cost reduction, using already in the wild hacks as it's guide.

[+kheller2]

Port B extra RAM banking usage didn’t show up until after Inc died and Corp showed up.  That doesn’t mean there wasn’t some existing projects going on, and no one knows what the “6402” board did.  The 130XE/800XL board I have does not have Antic banking, and that is a very late 1984 800XLF variant. 
 

DOS3 1450 instructions:  http://www.atarimania.com/documents/atari-8bit-introduction-to-dos-3.pdf

There were two short boards, “1400” and “1450” marked as such. 
And I thought there were two competing floppy boards and drives for the short board. I could be misremembering. 

 

 

[_The Doctor__]

the 14XX series was still going on under Warner communications, that's the DOS 3 book I remember.

Edited March 4, 2023 by _The Doctor__

[KLund1]

Very cool! This is a great discussion. Many thanks everyone!

I did not know about the 1450XLD stuff in DOS III. I have this manual but never actually read it. (my bad!)

One thing I did notice is that this manual says to turn the latch to the vertical down position on the disk drive. Page 4, #4.

Some 1450 pictures show the drive as a push button eject type drive (with a little white part on the button), others show the traditional 1050/PC type drive. Which is the 'right' drive? I think it would be the push button type, but this manual assumes different. I think that any drive for a 1450 would have to have a disk detect switch that passes through the ribbon cable. Not all 720Kb 5.25" 1/2 height drives have have this feature. 

[Rybags]

Freddie was in existence way earlier than I'd have assumed, so it's reasonable to assume there were earlier plans for big RAM systems.

In any case it does seem underwhelming that they would have planned to release a computer with 2 disk drives, speech, modem, whatever but only with 64K.

[+kheller2]

There is no "right" drive.  This product never came to market, so .. um.. not sure what "right" is.

The pictures and catalogs from 83 clearly show a latch just like the 1050s (which makes sense since they were going to come from Tandon).

 

As long as we are going to talk about "right"..  which of these is right?

 

 

[KLund1]

Ya, I understand, your right.

I like the look of the push button drives. But I would suspect that they cost more. Plus they probably used whatever drives happen to be at hand when building their prototypes.

If they ever did go into production, they probably would use the less expensive leaver drives.

 

[+kheller2]

The pushbutton drives are stock SA400 drives.  Prior to that, the 1450 board's drive daughter board used, what looks like, a hacked up 1050 style board for 2 mechs and 4 heads.  (reminds me of the 815).  

 

Link to link of links...

 

[cx2k]

Interesting read in the DOS 3 book...

 

So, if each side of the disk is a separate Drive number, isn't the drive 2 side being written backwards?

If you then tried to read the back side of the disk on an 810/1050, it wouldn't work.

 

John

[+kheller2]

17 hours ago, cx2k said:

Interesting read in the DOS 3 book...

 

So, if each side of the disk is a separate Drive number, isn't the drive 2 side being written backwards?

If you then tried to read the back side of the disk on an 810/1050, it wouldn't work.

 

John

That is correct.  Just like the XF551... but different

 

 

[KLund1]

I do not think the push button drives are SA400's. Those are full height drives. Though are you kheller2 saying that was the interface standard used?

 Another thought occurred to me, what would a 1450 do with DOS 2d, or 2.5s, or Sparta DOS?

[+kheller2]

41 minutes ago, KLund1 said:

I do not think the push button drives are SA400's. Those are full height drives. Though are you kheller2 saying that was the interface standard used?

 Another thought occurred to me, what would a 1450 do with DOS 2d, or 2.5s, or Sparta DOS?

SA400 interface.  The threads I linked to give the drive make and model.  
 

I would imagine any of those DOSs would have no problem with a 1450, well Sparta maybe.  It depends on how the drives are patched into the OS.  DOS 3 wouldn’t seem to have a problem. Nor 4.