Does Sonic 2's 2-player mode suffer from flicker then?

[Kirk_Johnston]

 

I keep hearing people telling me that interlaced mode on systems like the Genesis and SNES suffer from flickering because of the way interlacing works or CRTs and such. Is that true of Sonic 2's 2-player mode too then, since that uses interlacing to get both the player's game views on-screen at once, and, if so, why isn't it flickering in the video above? Does anyone have any footage of what it looks like on a typical CRT where the flickering is supposed to visible? Because, either the video above isn't showing it as it actually appears, or the people saying interlacing is all flickery, and saying so in such a way you'd think it was basically game-ruining bordering on unplayable, are just crazy or something.

Edited April 3, 2023 by Kirk_Johnston

[roots.genoa]

Personally I don't remember any flicker, but there were a lot of slowdowns, though

[Kirk_Johnston]

It's all so confusing.

[Mittens0407]

The video is emulator footage, so there's no interlacing artifacts.

[Austin]

On 4/3/2023 at 10:11 AM, Kirk_Johnston said:

if so, why isn't it flickering in the video above?

The capture footage is being de-interlaced, so you won't see it on capture. There are scalers that allow you to show the interlacing effect, but it doesn't look very good, same as if you recorded the 3DO, PS2, etc.

[Kirk_Johnston]

1 hour ago, Austin said:

The capture footage is being de-interlaced, so you won't see it on capture. There are scalers that allow you to show the interlacing effect, but it doesn't look very good, same as if you recorded the 3DO, PS2, etc.

I'd actually kinda want to see just what it looks like in actual practice, because then I'd be able to judge for myself how bad it is or not. I mean, it surely can't be that bad, or else Sega surely wouldn't have released the Sonic 2 game with the entire 2-player mode built on it--and I honestly don't ever recall anyone berating the game for having terrible flickering in two-player mode--but some people would honestly have you believe the effect looks so bad as to make creating any new games that use it in some cool and innovative way a complete waste of breath because of how terrible they will look. And, while I don't deny it must have an effect, I just don't buy the narrative and picture those people are painting (it's usually hardcore programmers making this claim in my experience, rather than say artists or just general gamers). And I actually want to see how such a setting can be used to do new things in modern times that maybe people haven't previously tried on these old consoles. So, yeah, I just want to get an idea of what it's really like for myself to be honest, on both the Genesis and SNES, and then I can make my own personal call on that. I mean, already, the very fact that modern emulators can basically just eliminate the issue entirely already tells me those people are maybe acting a bit like elitist nerds and not really seeing the full picture here, which is that not everyone is a gaming snob who believes you can and must only play these games on original hardware running through ancient 4:3 CRTs and such. I wish it was as easy as someone posting a video on YouTube showing some old Genesis and SNES games running in interlaced mode on a few different screens or whatever (old and new) and being able to see how it looks in action.

Edited April 6, 2023 by Kirk_Johnston

[Austin]

It doesn't look that bad. Again, if you're used to the PS2 interlaced look, it's similar. The biggest issue isn't the bouncy screen so much that the aspect ratio for both screens is awkward. Everything looks squished. Regardless, it was still fine for the time and a fun addition to the game. I played a lot of the versus mode with friends back in the day.

 

It's possible I might be able to rig up my XRGB-3 and capture the look, but I'm not sure when I'd get around to it. If you wanted to really see for yourself, you could get an actual Genesis or clone system and an actual Sonic 2 cart. They aren't expensive.

Edited April 6, 2023 by Austin

[Mittens0407]

On 4/6/2023 at 7:45 AM, Austin said:

The capture footage is being de-interlaced, so you won't see it on capture. There are scalers that allow you to show the interlacing effect, but it doesn't look very good, same as if you recorded the 3DO, PS2, etc.

It is not capture footage. The description makes it clear that it's been recorded via an emulator. It's definitely not being deinterlaced either, even the best deinterlacing methods still showcase pretty obvious artifacts, especially at low resolutions like this. The video lacks any artifacts (aside from YouTube compression). The capture I have on my channel uses bob deinterlacing.

[Mittens0407]

On 4/6/2023 at 9:23 AM, Kirk_Johnston said:

I'd actually kinda want to see just what it looks like in actual practice, because then I'd be able to judge for myself how bad it is or not. I mean, it surely can't be that bad, or else Sega surely wouldn't have released the Sonic 2 game with the entire 2-player mode built on it--and I honestly don't ever recall anyone berating the game for having terrible flickering in two-player mode--but some people would honestly have you believe the effect looks so bad as to make creating any new games that use it in some cool and innovative way a complete waste of breath because of how terrible they will look.

In my experience it looks the same as any other interlaced game on a CRT. Either way it's not gonna look completely right on an LCD due to the way interlacing works. Anyone with those odd negative opinions about interlacing you describe may want to take a look at the best selling console of all time, lol.

[Kirk_Johnston]

On 4/6/2023 at 5:57 PM, Austin said:

It doesn't look that bad. Again, if you're used to the PS2 interlaced look, it's similar. The biggest issue isn't the bouncy screen so much that the aspect ratio for both screens is awkward. Everything looks squished. Regardless, it was still fine for the time and a fun addition to the game. I played a lot of the versus mode with friends back in the day.

 

It's possible I might be able to rig up my XRGB-3 and capture the look, but I'm not sure when I'd get around to it. If you wanted to really see for yourself, you could get an actual Genesis or clone system and an actual Sonic 2 cart. They aren't expensive.

I'd never use them enough to justify the cost methinks--I just play all my retro games on my hacked SNES Classic Mini these days--but I'd certainly appreciated seeing the footage if you ever get around to it.

[Austin]

11 hours ago, Mittens0407 said:

It is not capture footage. The description makes it clear that it's been recorded via an emulator. It's definitely not being deinterlaced either, even the best deinterlacing methods still showcase pretty obvious artifacts, especially at low resolutions like this. The video lacks any artifacts (aside from YouTube compression). The capture I have on my channel uses bob deinterlacing.

Yeah you're right. I was previewing the footage in a small window with YouTube's default, low resolution, which made it look soft like composite. Blowing it up on the big screen in HD, I can definitely see it's emulation.

[Austin]

Tried capturing the split screen mode with the XRGB-3 but the results aren't great. Best to maybe record a CRT with a camera or something.

 

Video's still processing, may be a little bit for the HD/60fps version to show correctly:

 

 

[Kirk_Johnston]

21 hours ago, Austin said:

Tried capturing the split screen mode with the XRGB-3 but the results aren't great. Best to maybe record a CRT with a camera or something.

 

Video's still processing, may be a little bit for the HD/60fps version to show correctly:

 

 

Thanks for posting it. At least I can see the slight jittering here. It's not that bad at all once the play area is moving though. And I expect it actually looks better across the board on an actual CRT TV.

Edited April 9, 2023 by Kirk_Johnston

[Austin]

9 hours ago, Kirk_Johnston said:

Thanks for posting it. At least I can see the slight jittering here. It's not that bad at all once the play area is moving though. And I expect it actually looks better across the board on an actual CRT TV.

Yes, it looks fine on a CRT. I tried to get camcorder footage of my CRT, but the glass just interferes too much and it looked awful. In person, on a CRT, it looks fine. You don't notice the jittery nature all that much.

[Kirk_Johnston]

Yeah, I think some of the nerds I've been speaking to about using interlaced mode, mostly kinda snobby and elitist programmers on the SNES side of things in the SNESdev forums to be honest, are just so far down the rabbit hole that they can no longer see things clearly. I had a feeling the Genesis crowd might just be a little more objective and rational about this kind of stuff. It's probably also just one more reason why the Genesis indie/homebrew community is so healthy right now, releasing a whole load of awesome rand new AAA games on a regular basis, while the SNES sits there waiting for its development community to pull the finger out. These guys just ain't helping us get anywhere fast or do anything particularly exciting and novel with our beloved retro consoles. Anyhoo, happy to know that interlaced mode really isn't as bad and to be avoided at all costs as some other people would have us all believe.

Edited April 10, 2023 by Kirk_Johnston