Open source or reverse-engineering projects for Ultimate 1 MB, Incognito, Sophia, etc.?

[flashjazzcat]

11 hours ago, Alfred said:

Konrad dba Drac030

I know who KMK is; I just wondered what relevance he has to the specific devices in the thread title.

[flashjazzcat]

4 hours ago, trannus_aran said:

I mean truly the end of it as far as motives are concerned is: I like these 8-bits quite a lot, and from where I'm standing there are two kinds of technologies: open source and carried into perpetuity, and proprietary ones we are all lucky to have with us for the time that the providers are willing and able to produce them. That's where the inherent anxiety lies, not with any ill-will towards the folks who make these incredible contributions to the scene.

Regarding Ultimate 1MB and Incognito firmware: as mentioned, they're activately developed and maintained (by me). Although they're not open source (and although the creation of derivative works based on reverse engineering is expressly forbidden by the terms of use), I'm perfectly happy to answer any technical questions and even provide code for those interested in - say - creating their own PBI host adapters, etc. Any of the hardware designers who have approached me regarding firmware should be able to attest to my willingness to help, short of arbitrarily open-sourcing everything just because some people have an ethical objection to projects the source code for which they can't download and then (usually) forget about once it's lying on their HDD.

 

'Don't even think about it' wasn't intended as a challenge. It was a request to respect the fact that these commercial products (specifically, U1MB and Incognito) are closed-source projects which have already (variously) been subject to illegitimate cloning, performed with entirely negative motivation. This has - unfortunately - made the actual hardware designer/vendor less inclined to reveal technical details than they otherwise would have been, notwithstanding the fact that serious innovators have in the past been offered the chance to avail themselves of these designs (the 1088XEL creator, for example, was invited to build Ultimate 1MB into his motherboard, which he declined to do; likewise U1MB and SIDE3 emulation is facilitated by the author of Altirra having sight of the VHDL).

 

It should be widely acknowledged that I'm attentive to user feedback, feature requests, etc, so if there's something you don't like and would like to see changed, let me know. Likewise, if you're concerned about what will happen to the source code if I suddenly drop dead, drop me a line and we can talk about it.

 

I really don't see any existential problem regarding U1MB, Incognito, etc, anyway. Firmware is and will be maintained (regarding bug fixes) well beyond the point at which those designs are retired and superceded by their improved successors, so if you've already purchased Incognito (which is now subject to little other than maintenance updates), you've got nothing to worry about.

 

Unfortunately, all threads like this serve to accomplish is discourage hardware designers and firmware authors interested in anything other than open-source projects.

Edited April 10, 2023 by flashjazzcat

[+x=usr(1536)]

4 hours ago, trannus_aran said:

open source and carried into perpetuity

This is a fallacy of open-source doctrine.  Note that I am saying this as someone who routinely - even as I type - uses open-source software, and appreciates its value.

 

Can open-source help with preservation?  Certainly.  Is it the magic bullet for ensuring that nothing is ever lost?  No.

 

'Open source' does not guarantee longevity; people with an active interest in the subject matter and a good backup strategy do.  The terms of a licence should not be confused with practices that actually keep hardware and software relevant.

[Alfred]

5 hours ago, flashjazzcat said:

I know who KMK is; I just wondered what relevance he has to the specific devices in the thread title.

He's not directly involved but his version of SDX is used with most of these upgrades, if I understand correctly. If he were to disappear, who would take it over ? Nobody is my guess.

[flashjazzcat]

3 minutes ago, Alfred said:

He's not directly involved but his version of SDX is used with most of these upgrades, if I understand correctly. If he were to disappear, who would take it over ? Nobody is my guess.

Oh - now I understand. Fortunately - as I understand it - SDX is maintained by DLT, comprising Draco, Lizard and Trub, so short of any unfortunate events at Polish Atari parties, the project is probably in very safe hands.  I have no doubt the source code is kept on a private shared respository as well.

[Pfaffa]

14 hours ago, ChildOfCv said:

In the US at least, code is copyrighted.  That's why the original PC clones were not always fully compatible with the PC.  They had to write a brand new BIOS that performed the operations according to the original IBM spec.  IIRC, a couple early clones emerged that were sold with a copy of the original IBM BIOS, and they were immediately sued into oblivion.  Creating new source code based on the reverse-engineered data, though, is legal.

Apparently GameBoy's DRM method is to embed the Nintendo logo into the ROM.  So in order to produce a ROM that GB will play, you must include Nintendo's trademark in the ROM.  So the only way to write homebrew for GB without getting sued was to hack the GB itself.

I vaguely remember that a court ruled against Nintendo late in the GB life that it isn't a trademark violation if it is required for interoperability. In other words the GB DRM didn't fly legally, you may freely include Nintendo's logo for the purpose of booting the console. 

 

Edit: It might have been Sega, they did something similar with one of their consoles. Still applies to the GB though

Edited April 10, 2023 by Pfaffa

[CapitanClassic]

15 minutes ago, Pfaffa said:

Edit: It might have been Sega, they did something similar with one of their consoles. Still applies to the GB though

Yes, it was Sega v Accolade

https://forums.atariage.com/topic/317143-the-official-playstation-thread/?do=findComment&comment=5211087

[Ricky Spanish]

if they spent countless hours developing something, hardware/software whatever, then sell it for a modest income,

why on earth should it be open source ?

 

Really though most thing are under/around a 100 bucks, if you can't afford that yer in the wrong hobby. 

[trannus_aran]

For what it's worth, I *am* trying to make my own hardware here along these same lines. Namely, no such board exists to output DisplayPort over usb-c that I'm aware of, nor a modern memory upgrade for the 800 without extra soldering and jumper wires. So....I guess this my announcement of both of those projects? Idk, just if either of those existed:

A) It'd make it easier for me to use my old 800 without a bunch of extra accoutrements

B) I'd learn a lot (which is the reason I got into the A8b scene in the first place)

 

I'd love to know where to start other than just pouring over the A800 schematics and applying what I know from the various RP2040 DVI projects, but idk how much folks can share ;/

 

I guess suffice it to say, I'm not expecting open sourcing to do the preservation work *on it's own*, I'm actively trying to add to the ecosystem of modernization/quality of life improvements here (in the footsteps of the fujinet, most closely).

[flashjazzcat]

Great. Just ask for help, then, rather than attempting to reverse-engineer anything. You'll probably be surprised by the wealth of assistance and expertise at your disposal.

[invisible kid]

27 minutes ago, trannus_aran said:

a modern memory upgrade for the 800 without extra soldering and jumper wires.

This guy might have something for ya, might not, but just in case

https://5cfab.com/

[reifsnyderb]

5 minutes ago, invisible kid said:

This guy might have something for ya, might not, but just in case

https://5cfab.com/

🙂

[trannus_aran]

5 hours ago, flashjazzcat said:

Great. Just ask for help, then, rather than attempting to reverse-engineer anything. You'll probably be surprised by the wealth of assistance and expertise at your disposal.

haha, sounds good. here's to some new projects then! Considering the ram upgrade has already been taken care of (thank you for the link @invisible kid!) maybe I can add "usb-c power delivery board" to the project queue 👀 Essentially anything that reduces the amount of obscure cables but keeps the old 800 at the center sounds like a good upgrade to me

[invisible kid]

NP. Yep, I got one of the 800 memory upgrades(among other things).

[jhd]

 

If someone were, hypothetically, to reverse engineer, disassemble, or otherwise clone a currently available piece of hardware for their own personal use, but not distribute it (or even publicly reveal its existence) how would the original developer even know? 🤔

 

Just because someone develops something, there is absolutely no obligation upon that person to share it (or even discuss it) with anyone else. Personal satisfaction is its own motivation.  

[nasty niff]

Why would you want to clone or copy a piece of hardware that's great as it is? Makes no sense 

[_The Doctor__]

? for the same reason people remake old Atari systems, they could just purchase one correct? But yet they built their own makes and models. It's a great learning experience. there is satisfaction in having done it yourself with your own hands.

[flashjazzcat]

Atari 8-bits haven't been manufactured, sold or supported by Atari for over thirty years and surviving units are subject to degradation and malfunction owing to age. Possible application for a reproduction or reimaged motherboard there. Incognito is available at your local dealer and enjoys perpetual support, so it's hard to see the purpose of parasitic spin-offs. It's really satisfying creating something original, on the other hand.

Edited April 11, 2023 by flashjazzcat

[mickster]

On 4/9/2023 at 9:27 PM, bfollowell said:

 

 

At the end of the day, I agree with the others, who cares if the item is open source or "preserved" if it is being actively produced and supported?

 

 

Because just because it is, does not mean it will always be.

 

For example.  Going back 20 years,  in the pinball hobby, the pinball repair guides were absolutely fantastic 'living' documents that helped the pinball community repair pinball machines.  One of the few things that the author asked for, was for no one to distribute old versions of the documents, but to point to his personal pages.  He reason being is that the documents were always being updated and he preferred people to see the best current version of his work.

 

Then he got mad.

 

Then everything was taken offline.

 

Keep in mind,  while he solely built and edited the guides,  he himself had gathered the information from many different authors (including me).

 

MANY OF PRODUCTS produced in the hobby now, are by very small teams (if not one person). All it takes is a change in interest,  health problems,  money problems, etc....   and your support is gone forever.  

 

For example, if any the developers either in software or hardware gets the news that they have a terminal illness,  should they spend time to document and make sure the information gets to other users or should they spend the time they have left doing what they want.

 

 

So that's why  I think some people care about an item's preservation  while its still being actively being supported.

 

 

On 4/9/2023 at 9:27 PM, bfollowell said:

 

 

[_The Doctor__]

we've seen that sort of thing happen here on AA, a member deleted every file, picture and message he could get to... that is one of the reasons we now have to bug moderators and albert about things. Measures had to be employed to prevent malicious actions one of which is the edit time windows which now prevents such deletions, blanking, and other such shenanigans. Here today gone tomorrow is the tactic of today and the wayback machine can't keep up.

Edited April 11, 2023 by _The Doctor__

[Alfred]

A good case in point, although it has nothing to do with hardware really is BBS Express Pro!. Now that Carden's gone, what happens to it ? Should I release my source-level disassembly of the main bbs program and some of it's modules, or should I just sit on them and hope someone else takes over from Steve ? Or the multiplexer boards. I suppose I could ask Bob if he still has the films from which the boards were made. The hard part for them is sourcing the 6522 VIA; they were hard to come by back then, Bob used to complain about how hard it was to find them all the time, I have no idea if you can still get them today.

[flashjazzcat]

It's certainly understandable why hardware designers would lose interest.

[trannus_aran]

Absolutely, as is their prerogative! But that does bring up what @mickster was getting at: single point of failure if anything (death, disinterest, etc.) goes wrong

[flashjazzcat]

I meant losing interest in producing anything at all to begin with when there's a chance of closed-source projects being cloned on the most precarious of pretences. But in any case, if the closed-source project is actively developed one minute but the vendor chose not to put in place any contingency measures in the event of their sudden death, that's tough shit, basically.

[+mytek]

On 4/11/2023 at 12:22 PM, _The Doctor__ said:

we've seen that sort of thing happen here on AA, a member deleted every file, picture and message he could get to... that is one of the reasons we now have to bug moderators and albert about things. Measures had to be employed to prevent malicious actions one of which is the edit time windows which now prevents such deletions, blanking, and other such shenanigans. Here today gone tomorrow is the tactic of today and the wayback machine can't keep up.

When perusing this topic I came across this post which struck me as rather odd. it would seem that the AA member in question was well within his rights to delete and/or edit his 'own' content per copyright law. I realize that might cause discontinuity in the topics that were involved, and that wouldn't be a nice thing in some cases. Never the less the poster of that content should still be allowed to do that because he was the one that created that content in the first place. And yes it is within the owner rights of this forum to limit this ability, but two wrongs don't make a right. Personally I've always hated the fact that unless you pay a fee and subscribe each year that you only have a limited 30 minute time period in which to edit posts, thus the reason I did subscribe since I make a multitude of errors both grammatically and spelling wise which often times takes me days to discover and correct. However with that said I don't mind paying to be a subscriber for the purpose of supporting this website, but I do dislike the limited time line on doing edits either with or without a subscription (30 day window as subscriber). This is also the reason I started a blog on my website which I have slowly started to migrate my more detailed hardware posting to, so that I can always edit and/or update the information presented there.

 

On a somewhat related topic; I also belong to a forum called Xtreme Systems, where I used to post content about Auto-Cascade chillers that could be used for CPU cooling in order to over clock. To this day I can still edit my posts in that forum, even though it's been over a decade since I last posted there. And no I do not pay a fee to do so. And unlike this particular forum, that other one is always very civil without people flaming each other. In fact this A8 forum could greatly benefit from members hanging out in either that forum, or the Colecovision/Adam forum also here on AtariAge for a few weeks to see an example how fights between members are not the normal way of sharing information about retro computers and game consoles.