FujiNet on the 1090XL Expansion System?

[massiverobot]

6 minutes ago, reifsnyderb said:

I think that, given the popularity of FujiNet, that a 1090 card would be a great addition.  From a hardware standpoint, it would be nothing more than just plugging a card into the 1090XL.  The 1090XL card could even supply any firmware.  There would no longer be a requirement for the proprietary SIO connector, either.

 

I fully understand that the FujiNet project is open source and have written open source code myself.  (At one time, I was writing code for the FreeDOS project and wrote the Free FDISK program.)  However, I have zero experience with the FujiNet source code.  Presently, it would probably take me at least 6 months to get a development environment up and running, figure out the FujiNet source code to the point of being able to modify it, test it, etc., etc., etc.  On the other hand, I already have a Raspberry Pi Pico 1090 card developed that should work the first time.  It would be easy to convert it to use the ESP32 and I'd be willing to open-source that 1090 card.  It would be a win-win.  Instead, I get the feeling that the attitude is that if I want to do it, I am completely on my own.

 

Hi - so let me break a few things down here.

 

If you chose to do it- but not use the FujiNet ecosystem, firmware, source code - ie. not make it a part of Fujinet - then you are as on your own as you'd be for anything else right?

 

If you want to take a device and incorporate it into the Fujinet ecosystem you are never alone-- you just hop on the Discord and you'll get a lot of help and breakdown of what is going on and what needs to happen to make your endeavor a success.

 

There is no one that I know of in the FujiNet project itself, right now, that is interested in making a Pico Pi work on a 1090 for the Atari. People are working on other things. The closest is an Apple II card that does in fact use the pico pi _and_ the ESP-S3 (not 32) and it uses the FujiNet firmware to power it. So something like this is in progress for Apple. But for the Atari it will take someone like you to personally lead this project for it to happen. It won't be 'picked up' by someone in the near future (IMHO).

 

Does that help?

[massiverobot]

17 minutes ago, reifsnyderb said:

DISK program.)  However, I have zero experience with the FujiNet source code.  Presently, it would probably take me at least 6 months to get a development environment up and running, figure out the FujiNet source code

 

Six months is a small amount of time to devote to such a project. After the six months you would be able to do amazing things with the Atari and FujiNet, beyond even the 1090. IMHO it's a great investment of time and will help the project out tremendously!

 

Are you considering this? It would take much more time for other people not as experienced as you.

 

[reifsnyderb]

I might tackle this.  It's really a matter of available time.  I am almost finished with a 1090XL OS and BASIC upgrade board that uses a new version of the firmware board I developed.  I also need to finish the 1090XL RAM Disk/configuration card I am working on.  (I think I just have one more bug to fix.)

 

When I first inquired about this, over 7 months ago, I was directed to another project....that apparently has gone into hibernation.  I guess the original idea was to adapt a parallel FujiNet implementation to the 1090XL.  While this does make sense, it would be a lot faster to just adapt the serial implementation to a 1090XL card.  Serial speed, over the parallel port, is still much faster than serial speed over the SIO port.

 

To make this work is literally just swapping out all of the SIO-related code to use a single bit on a register of a 1090 card.  Writing to the address (and bit) would be send while reading from the address (and bit) would be receive.  The XEP-80 1090 implementation does all this at the address of $D1F8; which is an address in the range of what Atari reserved for an 80 column card anyhow.

 

I have started talking to mozzwald about this on the ##Atari chat.  We may have the beginnings of a plan to go forward.

[reifsnyderb]

Ok.  I found the KiCad files I drew up for FujiNet 1.6.  I made up a back-plane for this card (and some others) that was connected to the SIO port.  I think It's a good starting point.

 

Also, it looks like FujiNet 1.7 just added a capacitor for the +5v SIO and changed the USB port to USB-C.  So, 1.6 is a fine starting point.

 

Here's the KiCad files.....

 

Fujinet 1.6 - SES.zip

[freetz]

@reifsnyderb: My abilities to help you may be limited, but I would really like to see the 1090 project taking off, because I think it would be great to have a standardized periphery platform and also open up Atari 8-bit hardware development possibilities for those developers that do not have deep knowledge of the functioning of the PBI (like me). FujiNet could be a "killer app" for this project, although this might depend on how it would be possible to realize the function that most people use FujiNet for (i.e. loading games). Not sure if this would be technically possible to realize a device that behaves like a disk drive the same way it does via SIO (with a D:-handler etc.).

 

I'd be offering whatever help I can give. I have developed hardware for the Atari before (MidiJoy, AtariDuino), but never anything for the PBI (never really understood how it could be done). My main expertise, however, lies with programming Arduino/ESP microcontrollers where my more successful projects are based on (BSB-LAN and Robotan).

I could try to dig into setting up a FujiNet development environment because that's something I've also always wanted to try, and if that saves you six months of work, maybe that could be a start. My time is also rather limited (full-time working family father), but it would be something I'd like to become engaged in, should I be able to able to actually contribute and not slow down this project. In any case, thank you as well as everyone else here who is contributing to creating hardware for the Atari 8-Bit.

[reifsnyderb]

9 hours ago, freetz said:

@reifsnyderb: My abilities to help you may be limited, but I would really like to see the 1090 project taking off, because I think it would be great to have a standardized periphery platform and also open up Atari 8-bit hardware development possibilities for those developers that do not have deep knowledge of the functioning of the PBI (like me). FujiNet could be a "killer app" for this project, although this might depend on how it would be possible to realize the function that most people use FujiNet for (i.e. loading games). Not sure if this would be technically possible to realize a device that behaves like a disk drive the same way it does via SIO (with a D:-handler etc.).

 

I'd be offering whatever help I can give. I have developed hardware for the Atari before (MidiJoy, AtariDuino), but never anything for the PBI (never really understood how it could be done). My main expertise, however, lies with programming Arduino/ESP microcontrollers where my more successful projects are based on (BSB-LAN and Robotan).

I could try to dig into setting up a FujiNet development environment because that's something I've also always wanted to try, and if that saves you six months of work, maybe that could be a start. My time is also rather limited (full-time working family father), but it would be something I'd like to become engaged in, should I be able to able to actually contribute and not slow down this project. In any case, thank you as well as everyone else here who is contributing to creating hardware for the Atari 8-Bit.

PM Sent.

[reifsnyderb]

Well, I got a little done on this.....

 

Unfortunately, I had to resort to a 4 layer board.  There was just a lot to route and little space.  I need to do some cleanup, silkscreen work, and a few other odds and ends.  The routing is done, though.   🙂  The board is sized for either a 1090XL or a 1091XL.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[reifsnyderb]

I think the silkscreen work is done.  Part numbers and/or component values have been added.  I've also added ground planes to most of the unused areas of all layers.  I ran into an issue with parts availability for the 3.3vdc voltage regulator so it's been changed.  Also, because of voltage drop-off concerns, with the voltage regulators, almost all of the components take their power from the unregulated +10vdc from the 1090/1 board via the two voltage regulators.  The advantage here is also a reduced parts count and, since you need a 1090/1 anyhow, I don't think it's a big deal.  I'll review it on and off over the next day or so.  Unless I find an issue to change, this is the board I am ordering.   🙂

 

[freetz]

Why would you need a 1090/1 anyway? Would that mean that you would have to get the 1090, the 1090/1 and the FujiNet cart even if you just want to use FujiNet?

The reason I'm asking is based on the "killer app" idea - if I plan to spend money on a FujiNet anyways and might just spend some more to have a solution that potentially gives me many more options via the 1090, then I think it would be a selling argument. If I need the FujiNet card, the 1090 and then the 1090/1, it might be a deterring element. If this could be avoided just by solving the voltage issues in a different way, I would at least think about that a bit more...

[reifsnyderb]

2 minutes ago, freetz said:

Why would you need a 1090/1 anyway? Would that mean that you would have to get the 1090, the 1090/1 and the FujiNet cart even if you just want to use FujiNet?

The reason I'm asking is based on the "killer app" idea - if I plan to spend money on a FujiNet anyways and might just spend some more to have a solution that potentially gives me many more options via the 1090, then I think it would be a selling argument. If I need the FujiNet card, the 1090 and then the 1090/1, it might be a deterring element. If this could be avoided just by solving the voltage issues in a different way, I would at least think about that a bit more...

Calling it a 1090/1 is just saying it's a 1090XL or 1091XL.  You'd just need a 1090XL or 1091XL board.  They are both compatible.  The 1091XL is just a smaller, modernized, version of the 1090XL.  It's all the same.

[freetz]

Oh, ok, thanks for clarifying this, then it's no issue of course.

[reifsnyderb]

Here's the KiCad files for the 1090 board.  I made a couple minor changes to make the traces look nicer.  🙂

 

 

 

KiCAD files:

1090 FN.zip

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Mathy]

Hello Brian

 

My guess would be that some of the people interested in the 1090XL or 1091XL would want to put it in some kind of enclosure.  Maybe even a metal enclosure.  Maybe you can add the option to use an external antenna.  And a way to access the buttons and the SD-card slot when an enclosure is used.

 

Sincerely

 

Mathy

 

[reifsnyderb]

2 hours ago, Mathy said:

Hello Brian

 

My guess would be that some of the people interested in the 1090XL or 1091XL would want to put it in some kind of enclosure.  Maybe even a metal enclosure.  Maybe you can add the option to use an external antenna.  And a way to access the buttons and the SD-card slot when an enclosure is used.

 

Sincerely

 

Mathy

 

I think an external antenna can be added to the ESP32-WOVER.  If it can't I suspect that the frequency is high enough that the vent holes will suffice.  I may be wrong. 

 

The SD-card slot, and two of the buttons, stick out the back.  Only the USB and it's related button are internal.

 

Best Regards,

 

Brian

 

[mozzwald]

This post has info on how to add external antenna to the ESP32-WROVER module
 

 

[reifsnyderb]

Boards ordered.

[reifsnyderb]

Well, boards are in production and I just found out the *()&(*&) switches are on backwards.  Over $50 down the can. 🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬

[reifsnyderb]

New boards are ordered...

[kenp]

On 12/17/2023 at 10:34 AM, reifsnyderb said:

Here's the KiCad files for the 1090 board.  I made a couple minor changes to make the traces look nicer.  🙂

 

 

 

KiCAD files:

1090 FN.zip 1.25 MB · 3 downloads

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Wait, What, KiCAD?  Holy doodle.  I'd seen mention of quick PCB tools and ordering and now there is a name.  And it's already in the Linux repositories.  Thanks for another bit of bringing me up to date.  Gonna have to spend more time with this one.   ($50 for how many of these boards and where?)

[freetz]

On 12/19/2023 at 8:41 AM, reifsnyderb said:

Well, boards are in production and I just found out the *()&(*&) switches are on backwards.  Over $50 down the can. 🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬

I feel with you - I once had forgotten one click to add the routing layer to ther Gerber files and so I got 50 nicely looking PCBs that had no electrical connection whatsoever :(. Decided to turn them into Christmas tree decoration, since they were small enough ;)...

[reifsnyderb]

13 minutes ago, kenp said:

Wait, What, KiCAD?  Holy doodle.  I'd seen mention of quick PCB tools and ordering and now there is a name.  And it's already in the Linux repositories.  Thanks for another bit of bringing me up to date.  Gonna have to spend more time with this one.   ($50 for how many of these boards and where?)

jlcpcb.com  You'll need to rotate those 3 switches 180 degrees and fix the traces going to them.

Edited December 20, 2023 by reifsnyderb

[kenp]

9 hours ago, reifsnyderb said:

jlcpcb.com  You'll need to rotate those 3 switches 180 degrees and fix the traces going to them.

thanks for the pointer to jlcpcb.com.   it's for something I might try in the future.

[reifsnyderb]

Components ordered for the prototype board.  The faulty 4 layer boards aren't yet ready for shipment but the 2 layer boards, I ordered yesterday, are awaiting pickup!

[reifsnyderb]

Delivery is scheduled for 12/29.

[freetz]

20 hours ago, reifsnyderb said:

Components ordered for the prototype board.  The faulty 4 layer boards aren't yet ready for shipment but the 2 layer boards, I ordered yesterday, are awaiting pickup!

Oh, did you manage to get everything into two layers eventually?