Why, in 2023, the 5200 is a better system then the XEGS despite having 1/4 the RAM (16K vs. 64K)

[christo930]

12 minutes ago, x=usr(1536) said:

While I fundamentally agree with the point that you're making, 1987 was very much in the 8-bit / 16-bit overlap era.  Commodore had released the 64C in 1986, the NES was in full swing, NEC would release the PC Engine in the same year as the XEGS, and, in Europe, Amstrad would continue to release Z80-based machines under both its and the Sinclair names.

 

Actually, I think the PC Engine is the most interesting of the examples mentioned here and, had it been a computer and not a game console (my comments are limited to computers), would have straddled the line between 8 and 16 bit which I mentioned in my original comment as possibly being potentially viable.  While retaining the 8 bit CPU, it was also significantly faster being clocked at over 7mhz.  It had 64k in graphics RAM alone and supported many colors on the screen, really on par with the 16bit consoles and outperforming (at least in color and sprites)  the 16 bit computers like Amiga and Atari ST.

 

I do understand things were different in Britain. But even in the case of Amstrad and Sinclair, they were releasing expanded machines that were just better versions of the old machines.  The 64C was just a cost reduced reissue of the C64 brought on by strong demand after Commodore tried to cancel the 64.

20 minutes ago, x=usr(1536) said:

But 8-bit machines weren't seriously on the way out until about 1990

I don't disagree. Support for the 64 in America and the CPC and Speccy in Britain was very strong.  In many ways, it was the height of the 8 bit era.  But these were existing computers with already fairly sizeable installed base. Selling more of them was always possible and a good idea.  Since they weren't really anything new, they didn't cost a bunch of money to develop or to produce them and for the most part were backward compatible.

[leech]

14 minutes ago, x=usr(1536) said:

Yup.  Not giving your existing userbase a clear upgrade path is a surefire way to send chunks of them off to other manufacturers' platforms.

 

The IIGS had so much potential.  It's a pity that Atari had their own equivalent in the works for a 1983/4 launch and didn't see what it could be either.

Quite like mine.

[christo930]

13 minutes ago, leech said:

All except the Apple IIGS, which would have remained incredibly popular if not gimped.

This is probably studied in some university somewhere about how to screw up a new computer release.  Even if they hadn't hobbled it, it was never going to compete with the Macintosh. Maybe some marginal home sales, that's about it.  The II was right around the corner and would run circles around the IIgs.

 

Apple's handling of the 2 line was in some ways very good, but in other ways was terrible.  For quite a while, it was the II paying the bills at Apple and they treated it like a redheaded stepchild they were almost ashamed of or something, at least in some ways.  Had they treated the IIGS right, chances are good it could have kept being a II cash cow with a plan for a merger some time in the 90s (to be totally fair, it was supported til the early mid 90s).  There was a fairly large market of people married to the II and with a bunch of data on the II who had little interest in converting everything to Mac.  A lot of this audience was eventually lost to the PC, not the Mac.

 

I think they should have made a II that was not graphical, but still had the 65816 CPU and clocked higher.  The II had a decent game base, but it was not primarily a game machine the way the C64 and Atari 8bit systems were. While the competition had little small business installed base, the Apple II had a significant small business presence.  It was much more seen as a competent 8 bit computer than the other 8bit machines with the exception of CP/M based computers, which were all business.  In the 80s, people just didn't care about GUIs. The magazine editors cared. The so-called "experts" cared. But not the people buying computers and using them.  If the gui mattered in the 80s, we'd all be using Macs and Amigas and STs.

 

As late as 1995, I was working for one of the big 6 accounting firms in the IT dept and there were still a ton of 286s and low end 386s in our mix. We also had a ton of "take home loaner" laptops (well, portable. They were Toshibas which plugged in but were otherwise in the laptop form, mostly 286 and early 386) which the accountants could take home to do work at home, all running dos and dos based software like 123 and WP for DOS. The 386 desktops were running Windows 3.1, but all the apps were DOS. It was what the accountants knew. Since this was a private LLC and not a publicly traded corporation (not to mention it was owned by accountants), they HATED spending money (they were still using thick Ethernet as the backbone and coax Ethernet on each floor.

[+x=usr(1536)]

5 hours ago, christo930 said:

Actually, I think the PC Engine is the most interesting of the examples mentioned here and, had it been a computer and not a game console (my comments are limited to computers), would have straddled the line between 8 and 16 bit which I mentioned in my original comment as possibly being potentially viable.

Funny you should mention that: I've long considered the PC Engine to be more or less the pinnacle of 8-bit machines available to the general public.  While it's certainly a console, it's an interesting computing architecture in its own right.  Much of that design was inspired by arcade games, but it also predicted (or carried on) ways of doing things that became commonplace in the 16-bit era.

5 hours ago, christo930 said:

I don't disagree. Support for the 64 in America and the CPC and Speccy in Britain was very strong.  In many ways, it was the height of the 8 bit era.  But these were existing computers with already fairly sizeable installed base. Selling more of them was always possible and a good idea.  Since they weren't really anything new, they didn't cost a bunch of money to develop or to produce them and for the most part were backward compatible.

True, but much of that also covers the approach Atari took with the XEGS (existing architecture, no substantial engineering effort required).  That said, no company ever had significant success with the console-as-computer concept that I can think of - the Adam, XEGS, C64GS, GX4000, and others tried it and flopped.  By no means does that exclude Atari from just having had a half-baked idea in the XEGS, though.

 

As a footnote, I got my first ST in 1988, IIRC.  Even in Europe at the time (and I can really only speak from experience on the Irish perspective), it was pretty clear that the writing was on the wall for 8-bit systems; by about 1989, 16-bit machines were starting to dominate the market.  There certainly were 8-bit systems and software released up until about 1994 or so, but they were occupying noticeably less shelf space in stores well before then, and frequent sales were not uncommon when <insert retailer here> wanted to make more room for Amigas and STs.

[christo930]

12 minutes ago, leech said:

Quite like mine.

The main problem with the IIGS is they were trying to compete with the C64 and not the PC.  Apple II owners didn't want a new games machine boasting more color and epic sound.  They wanted a better II.

[christo930]

9 minutes ago, x=usr(1536) said:

That said, no company ever had significant success with the console-as-computer concept that I can think of - the Adam, XEGS, C64GS, GX4000, and others tried it and flopped.

Yeah, they have no identity. Usually a lot of compromises need to be made that hobble either thee console or the computer.  I think it is the lack of identity which hurt the machines.  Besides, if you buy a home computer, there are or hopefully will be games available for it. How are you really benefiting from the schizophrenic nature of it?  If you want a game console, what the hell do you want IO ports and a keyboard for?

 

13 minutes ago, x=usr(1536) said:

As a footnote, I got my first ST in 1988, IIRC.  Even in Europe at the time (and I can really only speak from experience on the Irish perspective), it was pretty clear that the writing was on the wall for 8-bit systems; by about 1989, they were starting to dominate the market.

 

I remember looking at the Amiga and ST around late 87 to early 88. The price just really put me off. You really couldn't get either for under 1000 Dollars out the door (with a monitor).  As an 18 year old just out of HS and not quite ready for college, this was just too large a barrier for what I knew would be a game computer.  An 18 year old out of HS and not yet in college doesn't need to run spreadsheets and word processors.  When I finally did go to college, the first 6 months I typed all my papers on a C64 using speedscript and a 1581 disk drive and a cheap impact printer.  Then I upgraded to a Compaq Luggable I bought for 99 bucks (640k and a hard disk loaded up with software) and a dot matrix Panasonic printer I bought at a flea market for a few bucks.

[leech]

1 hour ago, christo930 said:

The main problem with the IIGS is they were trying to compete with the C64 and not the PC.  Apple II owners didn't want a new games machine boasting more color and epic sound.  They wanted a better II.

Arguably, the IIGS is a better Apple II.  I use mine to play the huge library of Apple II games... oh that is a lie, I bought it for Nox Archaist, and to play the original Ultimas.  It does have a fantastic version of Bard's Tale 1 and 2 as well (I randomly ask Burger Becky if we will ever see the release of 3 for the IIGS).

[christo930]

14 minutes ago, leech said:

Arguably, the IIGS is a better Apple II.  I use mine to play the huge library of Apple II games... oh that is a lie, I bought it for Nox Archaist, and to play the original Ultimas.  It does have a fantastic version of Bard's Tale 1 and 2 as well (I randomly ask Burger Becky if we will ever see the release of 3 for the IIGS)

 

Yeah, but when did you buy it?  Did you buy it in the 80s or early 90s when it was a current computer?

 

I know the II has a large game library, but that really wasn't what most people were primarily using them for.  You could play the II library from a II or IIC or even a Fanklin. 

The IIGS made a lot of improvements, but it also saddled the system down with all the gui stuff (though I am pretty sure (though not 100%) it will boot Apple II disks without the gui).

The IIGS is a pretty good game platform, possibly even the best available in 1986. But the GS game library is pretty small.

[leech]

2 hours ago, christo930 said:

 

Yeah, but when did you buy it?  Did you buy it in the 80s or early 90s when it was a current computer?

 

I know the II has a large game library, but that really wasn't what most people were primarily using them for.  You could play the II library from a II or IIC or even a Fanklin. 

The IIGS made a lot of improvements, but it also saddled the system down with all the gui stuff (though I am pretty sure (though not 100%) it will boot Apple II disks without the gui).

The IIGS is a pretty good game platform, possibly even the best available in 1986. But the GS game library is pretty small.

You absolutely do not need a GUI.  In fact that requires a hard drive or (shudder) swapping floppy disks.

 

I literally bought the IIGS in anticipation for when Nox Archaist would be released.  So whatever year that was on Kickstarter.   Finally got it, was ready to play it... then learned a IIGS port was being worked on. 

[Turbo-Torch]

On 6/25/2023 at 12:22 AM, BIGHMW said:

I'll make sure to extract the files from my SD card I use on my Atarimax multicart from their various locations, from A-Z, you know, those locations. 🙂

 

Would mind listing out each of those games and ranking them from 1 to 10 (10 being best)?

Also add a letter A if you feel the game works best with the original 5200 Analog stick, D for an 8 way stick like the Competition Pro and T for Trak-Ball.  Feel free to explain why if you want.

And if you don't mind, give a small review on the extreme ends.  Such as why you hate a 1 game and really like a 10 game?

 

Thanks!

[+x=usr(1536)]

16 minutes ago, Turbo-Torch said:

 

Would mind listing out each of those games and ranking them from 1 to 10 (10 being best)?

Also add a letter A if you feel the game works best with the original 5200 Analog stick, D for an 8 way stick like the Competition Pro and T for Trak-Ball.  Feel free to explain why if you want.

And if you don't mind, give a small review on the extreme ends.  Such as why you hate a 1 game and really like a 10 game?

 

Thanks!

I bet that would be a great way to organise content for future episodes of the 5200 SuperReport, too!

[Turbo-Torch]

16 minutes ago, x=usr(1536) said:

I bet that would be a great way to organise content for future episodes of the 5200 SuperReport, too!

 

For bonus content...

What manufacturer has the best looking cartridge?

Original Atari?

Activision

Parker Bros.

Big Five's red shell inserted into Big Sexy?

 

[+x=usr(1536)]

29 minutes ago, Turbo-Torch said:

For bonus content...

What manufacturer has the best looking cartridge?

Original Atari?

Activision

Parker Bros.

Big Five's red shell inserted into Big Sexy?

The Wico Command Control - After Dark.  Too hot for YouTube!

[Jess Ragan]

8 hours ago, christo930 said:

The main problem with the IIGS is they were trying to compete with the C64 and not the PC.  Apple II owners didn't want a new games machine boasting more color and epic sound.  They wanted a better II.

If you ever played Apple IIe games on a monochrome monitor, you sure as hell would want a better gaming PC than that. I'm just not sure the Apple IIgs qualifies. I've seen a grand total of ONE in real life. My high school kept the 8-bit Apple IIs around for the kids, and an Apple IIgs and a Leading Edge PC (x86) for the faculty. Apparently they felt no particular need to upgrade to the Apple IIgs, since they figured every student's need was met by the old, chunky, beige systems.

 

To be honest, I'm not super familiar with the IIgs. My understanding is that it wasn't anywhere near as good as the Super NES which shares its processor, nor did it compare to the other 16-bit computers of the time. Yes, even the Atari ST. (Maybe not the Sinclair QL.)

[BIGHMW]

Guys, thanks for the ideas on extra ways to boost the floundering numbers on my 3 YouTube channels and on those of the SuperReport, but as you see in the lack of numbers of both views and subscribers the Google/YouTube algorithms are biased/rigged against the smaller, more-original content creator=related channels and are rigged toward the "bigger" channels like those of these fake auto-tuned pop artists like Justin Bieber and Taylor Swift who put out fake shit "music" and all of these other celebrities these idiot kids like nowadays, but I have been seriously thinking because of those floundering numbers and because the deck is stacked against us that maybe the time HAS COME for me to step down in this business.

 

That announcement, will be made this week and will air on YouTube this weekend and will be the last ever video put out from this company, in which will cease all operations effective 12:01 am, Saturday July 1st.

[Cebus Capucinis]

Hey! We just found the other "DAYS SINCE" counter - days since the last threat to shut down the channel.

[+x=usr(1536)]

1 hour ago, BIGHMW said:

Google/YouTube algorithms are biased/rigged against the smaller, more-original content creator=related channels and are rigged toward the "bigger" channels like those of these fake auto-tuned pop artists like Justin Bieber and Taylor Swift

But Justin Bieber and Taylor Swift get airplay on KIIS 102.7 FM.  How can they be bad if KIIS-FM is playing them?

[Razzie.P]

I don't know much about Bieber, but any musician who thinks that Taylor Swift isn't "good," probably shouldn't attempt a career in music since they're apparently tone deaf and completely lacks understanding of the business side of things.

 

I mean, I'm not a fan either, but girl can sing damn near pitch perfect without any tech helping, understands songwriting well enough to hook in fans of many genres and generations, and has that stage presence/ability to win over a large venue same as a small crowd.  No surprise that she's pretty much "Top Dawg" these days.

 

 

[+Stephen]

13 minutes ago, Razzie.P said:

I don't know much about Bieber, but any musician who thinks that Taylor Swift isn't "good," probably shouldn't attempt a career in music since they're apparently tone deaf and completely lacks understanding of the business side of things.

 

I mean, I'm not a fan either, but girl can sing damn near pitch perfect without any tech helping, understands songwriting well enough to hook in fans of many genres and generations, and has that stage presence/ability to win over a large venue same as a small crowd.  No surprise that she's pretty much "Top Dawg" these days.

You've obviously never seen / heard the genius of AK-47 live.If you had, you would understand why the popularity of the two should be reversed.  There's an definite conspiracy here, because the numbers shouldn't lie.

[+DrVenkman]

55 minutes ago, Razzie.P said:

I don't know much about Bieber, but any musician who thinks that Taylor Swift isn't "good," probably shouldn't attempt a career in music since they're apparently tone deaf and completely lacks understanding of the business side of things.

 

I mean, I'm not a fan either, but girl can sing damn near pitch perfect without any tech helping, understands songwriting well enough to hook in fans of many genres and generations, and has that stage presence/ability to win over a large venue same as a small crowd.  No surprise that she's pretty much "Top Dawg" these days.

 

 

That women is kind of incredible, regardless of anyone’s opinion of her music. She is her own business manager and after she got out from under that “rookie contract” she signed as a kid, has architected her own success as an adult. She also supports her fans - her third sold out stadium show in Nashville a month or two ago got delayed several hours by severe weather. She took the stage at like 10:30pm and played her full set until 1:30am. Most stars would just cancel, but she didn’t. 

[BIGHMW]

3 hours ago, Stephen said:

You've obviously never seen / heard the genius of AK-47 live.If you had, you would understand why the popularity of the two should be reversed.  There's an definite conspiracy here, because the numbers shouldn't lie.

I was ALSO HOPING that maybe Cindy Margolis would've been more cooperative and helped an old friend get his foot in the door in this business so that I COULD get a fair shot at becoming as big as Taylor Swift or Justin Bieber. By my having gone to high school with her (1983-84, Erikson Center, Tarzana, CA, both of us graduated), you would think that maybe she could've lent out a helping hand. I though that maybe she would pay attention through my constant tagging of her on Facebook as she is on my friends list BTW as she remembers me from our days in high school too.

 

in 2003, months after having her first son, Nicholas, Cindy made a comeback on FOX on the 2003 Summer Music Mania TV show, in which was taped in San Diego (Chula Vista) at the Coors Light Amphitheatre (from a tip through my management Len Enders who lived in San Diego from 2001-2008) and soon after wrote to me after I sent her a bunch of S.M.F. and other related tapes and CDs of other bands as I wanted to get her to co-host/make an appearance at a show I was putting on in order to hopefully boost our attendance numbers. I even went out of my way to offer her a room at mine and my ex's house that my late mother's old trust fund had bought and fully paid for that we lived in virtually rent-free, we had a guest room that Cindy could've stayed in. She said I had a great thing going and gave me other pointers, but, she turned down the offer though. 

 

But also, I do more than just AK47, in which, was partly because of Cindy Margolis, as that vehicle, in which was an answer to her challenge in her letter she wrote to me  to becoming more upbeat and poppier, while still staying hardcore at the same time (at my insistence as I was not about to become another plastic bubblegum girly pop artist), carried me for about 20 years. Before then, I was going to form yet another punk/hardcore/skinhead band after S.M.F. broke up in 2003, called the Crap Of Society, in which was going to be even more hardcore than the hardcore/thrash S.O.D.-style group that S.M.F. was.

 

I don't know if it's a rural vs. urban thing but it sure is hard as hell for rural area-based acts to get noticed without having to relocate to "the big city" and I cannot afford to do so, as i only get $1,063/month from Social Security and have to work for the rest up to $1,450 gross/month. Now I had always thought that the internet was going to be the Grand Equalizer that someway leveled the playing field for all artists, and that maybe I would have the same chances and opportunities that Taylor Swift or my favorite commentator on YouTube the great Brian Tyler Cohen have. Well I guess not.

 

But not only that, but later on, I tried to develop even more talent and versatility in this business to the point that I had more than one way to hopefully "get my foot in the door" in this business, way beyond just music. In 2007, I launched my first YouTube channel, what is now my Ray Jackson YouTube channel. BIGHMW TV followed in 2013, The Atari Report in 2020, in which was developed originally as a vehicle to stay relevant in this business during the pandemic. You guys here on AtariAge were quite vital with your support of that series and channel in which I hope to bring back The Atari Report this coming fall, after I get myself financially squared away.

 

I already cut the cord on cable TV (I just have the broadband internet), switched from Verizon to Consumer Cellular, and also plan on driving less, and between 8:00 am - 6:00 pm, Monday through Saturday, using transit to get to and from downtown, other times (like Sundays or at night) or for destinations that transit can't take me I do have to drive though, but my MP4, CD, cassette, MiniDisc, DVD and VHS collections, my broadband internet connection and my 4 Atari systems (2600, 5200, 7800 and XEGS) and ColecoVision should keep me plenty busy at home at that too.

 

Just a matter of will power and a full fridge and pantry shelves and staying on my meds after that. You guys and your moral support (and your subscriptions on all 3 of my channels and spreading the word about them to others to boost those numbers and get them going in the algorithms) after that can sure as hell help.

 

Thanks!  

[leech]

12 hours ago, Jess Ragan said:

If you ever played Apple IIe games on a monochrome monitor, you sure as hell would want a better gaming PC than that. I'm just not sure the Apple IIgs qualifies. I've seen a grand total of ONE in real life. My high school kept the 8-bit Apple IIs around for the kids, and an Apple IIgs and a Leading Edge PC (x86) for the faculty. Apparently they felt no particular need to upgrade to the Apple IIgs, since they figured every student's need was met by the old, chunky, beige systems.

 

To be honest, I'm not super familiar with the IIgs. My understanding is that it wasn't anywhere near as good as the Super NES which shares its processor, nor did it compare to the other 16-bit computers of the time. Yes, even the Atari ST. (Maybe not the Sinclair QL.)

The IIGS was gimped with a slower processor and Apple Music sued to make sure the sound chip wasn't fully capable (it is probably one of the best sound chips included in 16bit era systems, but hampered by its lack of stereo sound due to the lawsuit).  It should have had a faster cpu.  It also supported full color befor the Mac did, and supports the same set up as the Atari ST.  But the shining achievement was Apple II compatibility, both software and hardware.

 

Funny enough, I believe my middle school had upgraded to IIGS computers, when earlier they had monochrome Apple IIs.  I only vaguely remember them being color, and had thought they were IIcs... but I also recall a GUI.  But my friends and I mostly spent the whole time in computer class typing in this listing from Compute magazine that was a text adventure... only for it not to work, and me then finding a tiny text saying it wouldn't work on the model of Apple we were using...

 

But I also never owned any Apple hardware until recently.  I can almost see why people are fans... but not quite.

[christo930]

13 hours ago, Jess Ragan said:

If you ever played Apple IIe games on a monochrome monitor, you sure as hell would want a better gaming PC than that.

You don't really need to upgrade for that. Just plug in a color monitor.

13 hours ago, Jess Ragan said:

. My understanding is that it wasn't anywhere near as good as the Super NES which shares its processor, nor did it compare to the other 16-bit computers of the time. Yes, even the Atari ST. (Maybe not the Sinclair QL.)

I'm not that well versed in them either.  But you really can't compare them to a snes or genesis as those were in the future and are game consoles not computers.

 

The ST or the Amiga had little to no chance of ever replacing Apple IIs.  MAYBE they might have prevented some new Apple purchases, but even that is probably insignificant, especially in the US.  Where they probably did make a difference, at least outside of the US is in the home market. In the US, they made absolutely no difference to anyone.  Even where the Amiga and ST made some inroads in multimedia for the Amiga and music for the ST, they weren't displacing Apple IIs, Macs or PCs, they were competing with dedicated systems and were new uses of small scale computing..

[christo930]

4 hours ago, Razzie.P said:

and completely lacks understanding of the business side of things.

 

I'll paraphrase Daryl Hall here when he said "The music business for more resembles the mafia than a normal business"

 

Most artists, even big ones have to tour to make money despite the billions of Dollars in revenue generated from record sales and royalties. The contracts are extremely abusive and one sided.

[christo930]

1 hour ago, leech said:

The IIGS was gimped with a slower processor and Apple Music sued to make sure the sound chip wasn't fully capable (it is probably one of the best sound chips included in 16bit era systems, but hampered by its lack of stereo sound due to the lawsuit). 

Do you have any more information about this lawsuit?  I never heard of it.  When you say Apple, do you mean Apple as in the Beatles?