floppy disk compatability

[newTIboyRob]

Hello all. So I ran Deskmate on my TL/3 and tried to format a 3.5" floppy disk to use with the program. (I don't have any 5.25 drive/s).

In the center of the screen, there is a window for the choice of using high density or the 720 double-density disks, but the high density choice is de-highlighted which I interpret means it is not usuable here.

Presently all I have is 1.44 MB disks. So all this means that I would have to buy a different disks?  Can anyone tell me exactly and/or post a link of exactly what kind of disks I need to get to use with the TL/3?

(I would also like to use them for DOS back ups, saving BASICA programs, etc.)

 

Thanks

[Turbo-Torch]

I believe the TL series came with a 720K drive, which would be why 1.44 is shaded out on Deskmate.

1.44 disks are the same with the exception of a hole in one corner that allows a HD drive to recognize it.

 

I have no issues with formatting HD disks @ 720K in my 1000 EX.

 

I also believe the TL/3 can support a 1.44 drive if you wanted to replace your existing one or add a 2nd.

[+OLD CS1]

1 hour ago, newTIboyRob said:

Presently all I have is 1.44 MB disks. So all this means that I would have to buy a different disks? 

If you are using a 720k (DD) drive, then what you write to a 1.44MB (HD) will likely be unstable.  HD disks have a higher magnetic coercity which do not always completely align with the magnetic field produced by the 720k heads.  Data already on an HD disk can have greater persistence when written over with a DD drive, which can interfere with reading and even cause the magnetic domains of the medium to shift over time.

 

YMMV, but for the long term you will likely run into issues.  From my own experience, I used HD disks with my 1581 and Amiga drives (same mechanisms,) and the HD disks I wrote developed read errors while the DD disks are working fine.  Even between the same brand (3M for most of them.)  Even if formatting the HD disk in a DD drive completed 100%, I would not trust data on said disks.

 

I have read in some places that late model 720k drives used the same heads as 1.44MB drives.  There is no way to prove or disprove this theory.  Again, YMMV.

[newTIboyRob]

Ok, so I am trying to process what you said above.  I believe you are correct in that the TL series comes with a 720K drive. 

I also have no desire or plans to replace that drive with a 1.44 drive or make any hardware configuration changes in my TL/3.

That said, the play then is to just buy the following disks on Ebay: DS/DD 720K 3.5" IBM Format New Floppy Disks  DSDD MF2-DD

Am I correct that the above disks are the type I need to buy?

 

Also, I understand the info DS= double sided, DD= double density, 720K=what my drive takes  3.5= the size, IBM etc...  but what does MF2 stand for?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[newTIboyRob]

On a side note, before I realized the disk types, I had tried a 1.44 HD disk in the TL/3 720 drive and it said there was a problem with the disk, (likely because the disk was a 1.44 and not a 720K DD, thus a compatibility mismatch.)

 

Did I mess up the drive though by trying that incorrect disk that one time?   (I would think that the drive simply could not process the disk due to its being a 1.44 but that the drive will be fine the next time I insert the correct 720K DD disk, but I would just like some reassurance that it didn't do any harm.)

 

Thanks

 

[Turbo-Torch]

You're not going to mess up the drive by using different density disks.  The Tandy computers I've owned have used TEAC drives which have all been fine with formatting high density disks as 720K, almost never have any bad tracks and don't recall any odd corruption later on.

 

It's possible the TL or the drive is more finicky and you'll need the more expensive double density disks.

 

Did you use a new unformatted disk?  If it was a used disk that was formatted as 1.44mb, it ain't gonna work.  You'd need to degauss the disk with something like a bulk tape eraser.

Lastly, flip the sliding door on the disk back and look at the disk surface under a bright light.  If you see any white splotches, that's mold and this disk is no good.

 

 

 

 

[newTIboyRob]

That disk I inserted was a new unused preformatted 1.44mb HD disk, and you were correct, it didn't work, so I just took it out. But from your first sentence above, it sounds like at least I didn't mess up the drive though, so that is good.

 

So If I just buy the ones I mentioned above that I found on Ebay, the DS/DD 720K 3.5" IBM Format New Floppy Disks DSDD MF2-DD, these would be right ones to get, yes? 

 

 

[Turbo-Torch]

Yes.  Wouldn't hurt to also buy a cleaning disk kit that you pop in the drive to clean the heads as you'll need it periodically.

Any disks you buy are going to be used or new old stock and there are many factors on how they are going to react.

You may get some that perform like new, or some that were poor quality 30 years ago and shed oxide all over the heads the first time you try to use one.  You can also have a never opened box of good name brand disks that were stored in a bad location and the disk surface will be full of mold.  The disk surface is a breeding ground for mold and a common problem.

[newTIboyRob]

All great points to consider, thanks for your input!

[newTIboyRob]

So I gave it the best chance possible.  I found a good brand of brand new, unopened factory-sealed 3M disks, DS DD which you likely have seen in the gray box.  Learning so much here. So they are technically 1.0 MB leaving the factory, but after I format them (they didn't say they were IBM PREformatted), the capacity is actually 720 KB?   This is exactly what I needed.

[Michael Kline]

 

Your choice for a 1M diskette will be to format it as 720K. If your floppy drive <is> just the 720K version, then that will be your choice. If your floppy drive is a 1.44M drive, you can use 1.44MB floppy disks with a choice to format it as a 1.44M or 720K.  I think you're booting up at MSDOS 3.3. But not sure. The manual is available on the Internet Archive. Download it here: https://archive.org/details/epson-ms-dos-3.3-ref/page/n5/mode/2up

[Turbo-Torch]

Just curious, what are your plans for this computer?

Did you have one BITD?  Is it a model you always wanted?  Are you afraid of damaging it if you open it (seems you're against any upgrades)?

 

Without a hard drive, you'll never enjoy its full potential.

I highly recommend an XTIDE card.  For less than $50 you can buy the XT-CF-Mini from Blue Lava systems (on eBay) and have an instant 64 MB super fast hard drive with the included CF card.  And for $13, you can replace the 64 MB card with a 2GB CF card from Amazon and have a 2,000 MB hard drive.  It was instant plug n' play on my 1000 EX, and that's a computer that was never meant to have a HD.

Not only will you have drive C storage space, you now have a way of getting software onto your TL.  Simply pop the CF card into your modern desktop PC and copy all the programs you downloaded off the internet onto the CF card.  Put it back into your TL, and there they are.

 

A WiFi modem is also very cheap and allows you to "dial" into over 1,000 BBSs all over the world.  A real dial up modem is also cool if you happen to still have a landline.

[newTIboyRob]

Wow, Turbo-Torch, I wish you lived near me in NY, as you really sound like you know your stuff!   I am not what one would consider tech-savvy, so yes, I am afraid of damaging it if I open it up, since I really don't know what I am doing in there.  I see that you do though. So basically I am just using it as a glorified typewriter at this point.

 

Here's one that's interesting though... Today, and this is after I received the new copies of the MS-DOS 3.3/GW Basic and Deskmate disks yesterday, I found an old box of disks.  In it was 3 copies of the MS DOS 3.3 disks, (1 of which looked professionally done since the label was typed and the other 2 back ups)  plus 2 disks I myself had formatted presumably in DOS for BasicA files some years ago, and Deskmate disks, this time 5 of them not 3. All disks were dated, eerily, with today's same date, but from 2002... Bummer!  So my next thought was, oh well, at least I will have some back ups... well, maybe..

 

So I got curious and checked out the disks. Some were TDK disks, some Verbatim disks... both top quality brands... but what they all had in common was that they all were MF-2HD IBM/DOS Formatted 1.44MB (which I got off of the disks themselves and the TDX box of blanks I found, the same disk type that wouldn't work when tried earlier.) The 5 Deskmate Verbatims were also MF-2HD. So now I am totally confused. Scroll up and read all the threads re: my disk capacity "issues" and you will see why:

• Why then was 1.44mb shaded out on the Deskmate, as if it wasn't an option, when I had tried that original blank but IBM-preformatted 2HD disk?  (In other words, why didn't the blank but IBM-preformatted disk I inserted then originally not take?)  
• Was there something wrong with that particular preformatted blank disk?  
• Maybe this drive was indeed upgraded to 1.44 MB before I got the computer and I just didn't know it ? (but then, again, why was the 1.44 shaded out in Deskmate and why wouldn't it have accepted an HD disk there?) 
• Should I try all those old DOS and Deskmate HD disks I found to see if the drive perhaps takes those particular disks since it wouldn't hurt the drive anyway from what I have learned?

All of this a mystery to me!

 

But anyway, at least I ordered the DS DD disks from 3M, and they do say IBM compatible, use with DOS 3.2 and higher (so good there) and they are 1MB, so I will format in DOS and Deskmate so they can be the 720k usable in Deskmate for saving files. 

 

If anyone feels like playing detective with any or all of the bulleted questions above, it would be interesting to hear your hypotheses.

 

As an afterthought, is there a simple way to tell if the drive itself is a 720kb or a 1.44mb drive without opening anything up?   I am curious to see if all 6 older disks I found today still/will work.

[newTIboyRob]

Actually make that 10 older disks I found today

[jhd]

6 hours ago, newTIboyRob said:

As an afterthought, is there a simple way to tell if the drive itself is a 720kb or a 1.44mb drive without opening anything up?   I am curious to see if all 6 older disks I found today still/will work.

 

Perhaps look at the technical specifications document (that was suggested in a previous thread):

 

TANDY 1000 TL/3  (250-1603)       Specifications       Faxback Doc. # 1241

Floppy: 720K 3.5"

https://web.archive.org/web/20080811024419/http://support.radioshack.com/support_computer/doc1/1241.htm

 

In theory, the system could have been upgraded by a previous owner, but I cannot imagine someone replacing the floppy drive without also installing a hard drive.