Atari-inspired, new "8-bit" computer

[lightman]

For some time, I've been looking with great interest at the various "fantasy" computers, consoles and "new 8-bit" computer projects.

 

Unfortunately, neither category seems to have what I am looking for. The fantasy computers and consoles have some nice ideas but tend to be pretty arbitrary in their design choices. They also tend to lean towards console designs and abstract too far from real hardware. What you get is more like an SDK.

 

On the other hand, hardware projects are a better match but still lacking. I've found a few projects, such as Commander X16, Zeal 8, Agon Light, Mega65, etc. I think the closest thing I've found to what I want is the Agon Light. I bought one but I am already seeing problems. I'll continue working with it.

 

I would prefer something that takes inspiration from the Atari 8-bit line and its designers (i.e. possibly also including the Amiga). However, I don't want to recreate one of the old machines or make something that is backwards compatible. I think there is a need today for a simple computer that operates like one of the classic computers. While primitive by today's standards, they had some advantages that are almost entirely lost to users today.

 

Would other people be interested in this?

 

Is there an existing alternative that I am missing?

 

[lightman]

[reserved]

[vitoco]

3 hours ago, lightman said:

Is there an existing alternative that I am missing?

@Franco Catrin's CLC-88 Compy, a mixture of the Atari 800 and ZX Spectrum computers.

 

[Rybags]

I don't see a lot of point of such computers unless they can use old cartridges and peripherals from a legacy machine.

Otherwise, why not just do the thing as an emulated device and/or use a platform such as RasPi to create it?

 

If I was to jump on board something, I'd like an Atari computer that could attach carts and SIO devices but also have enhanced Antic/GTIA, VBXE, Component and DVI video out, and while there may as well throw in Maria, TIA, other sound chips, and a turbo CPU.

 

[zzip]

5 hours ago, lightman said:

I think there is a need today for a simple computer that operates like one of the classic computers. While primitive by today's standards, they had some advantages that are almost entirely lost to users today.

Such as..?

[Geister]

For one thing, the ability to understand the entire design, both hardware and software.  Try that with a Windows 10 PC or even Linux.  

[zzip]

1 hour ago, Geister said:

For one thing, the ability to understand the entire design, both hardware and software.  Try that with a Windows 10 PC or even Linux.  

Sure, I used to be concerned about that back in the day,  but in practice, I can do way more with Linux today with less effort than I ever could on Atari BASIC and ASM back in the day, despite not knowing the ins and outs of the kernel or the CPU.

 

But in regards to the original question, if that's the goal, why not just stick with the orginal 8-bit systems that are thoroughly documented, have mature developer tools and significant software libraries?  Instead of creating an entiredly new "old" system that is probably not going to be used by more than a few dozen users, but will need somebody to write an OS and developer tools let alone applications?

[Geister]

I understand that point of view, but I really want a version of the Atari with the features that it should have gained along the way if the Atari company hade been a bit more innovative after Bushnell & Co. had left the building. I just want what should have been delivered before Tramiel came in and side-lined 8-bit development.  I always envisioned a 800GS version of our computers.

 

[Geister]

With a fully developed expansion bus and peripherals.

[+kheller2]

So you want a 800XL with the 1090 Expansion box?

The 1090, is being worked on with expansion cards ...today.

 

 

[+bent_pin]

I'm toying with a few projects along that line.

1) I'm making a hypercharged 6502/6507 to juice up the existing machines

2) I'm working on reclaiming ICs from several boards to make a multiprocessor z80/32u4 computer from the ground up. 

[Geister]

32 minutes ago, kheller2 said:

So you want a 800XL with the 1090 Expansion box?

The 1090, is being worked on with expansion cards ...today.

 

 

It's a start.  And an 80 column card, and a co-processor card with 65c816 processor, but I'll settle for a development board with wire-wrap holes.

[Geister]

29 minutes ago, bent_pin said:

I'm toying with a few projects along that line.

1) I'm making a hypercharged 6502/6507 to juice up the existing machines

2) I'm working on reclaiming ICs from several boards to make a multiprocessor z80/32u4 computer from the ground up. 

What's a Hyper charged 6502?  A 65C816?

[Dinadan67]

1 hour ago, Geister said:

I always envisioned a 800GS version of our computers.

 

We had that back in the day, google „Amiga“. If you desperately want something even more like the GS, get a XE with Rapidus and VBXE. I don‘t get the idea of modern „fantasy“ 8 bit computers that never existed. What for?

[+5-11under]

9 hours ago, lightman said:

I think there is a need today for a simple computer that operates like one of the classic computers. While primitive by today's standards, they had some advantages that are almost entirely lost to users today.

 

Is there an existing alternative that I am missing?

 

The question is what you want to do with such a computer.

Once you've answered that, there may be existing solutions, or at least you'd know (and we'd know) what the general requirements are.

I'm also not sure if you're looking to buy something, or to make something.

 

Personally, I'd love it if my MiSTer FPGA was built into something like a laptop. That's be convenient for me, and I could try out some BASIC in Apple or MSX or a variety of other computers.

 

[+bent_pin]

45 minutes ago, Geister said:

What's a Hyper charged 6502?  A 65C816?

All operations take 2 clocks, memory addresses and data can be written in full in a single write, an incredible about of registers and integrated RAM that can be assigned to fill gaps or act as strobe registers, limited floating-point functions including a multiplication table, log tables, and trig tables, ...

[reifsnyderb]

1 hour ago, Geister said:

It's a start.  And an 80 column card, and a co-processor card with 65c816 processor, but I'll settle for a development board with wire-wrap holes.

A new 80 column card exists and two development boards have been created.  The one board is a reproduction of the original from pictures.  The other board is a modified version of the first with connections like those on a breadboard.  There is also a 320k RAM card, a CX-85 numeric keypad card, a reproduction 80 column card, a reproduction 64k/256k board, a 4MB RAMdisk card (in the works), a firmware board, and an XE compatibility card.  I've also released everything I've learned about the PBI (and 1090) so others can develop for it.  A new 1090XL and 10901XL has also been created that is compatible with legacy cards and easier to setup for the 130XE. 

Edited August 21, 2023 by reifsnyderb

[zzip]

31 minutes ago, Dinadan67 said:

We had that back in the day, google „Amiga“. If you desperately want something even more like the GS, get a XE with Rapidus and VBXE. I don‘t get the idea of modern „fantasy“ 8 bit computers that never existed. What for?

It's pretty useless without the community/ecosystem to support it.   A lot of us wanted the Atari version of the Apple IIgs back in the day,  but even then that was kind of late into the Atari 8-bit lines life, when it was already struggling with software support.   And as we know, developers support the lowest common denominator,  which is why we kept getting Atari ports that fit in 48K RAM on 810-compatible single density disks,  so likely the amount of software that would have supported the Atari 'GS' system would have been slim as well, and would still be slim since homebrewers will still target the larger audience for the most part.

 

I also thought the IIgs seemed amazing until I actually got to try it--  it's an awkward dual-personality computer that still pales next to the Amiga or ST

[_The Doctor__]

Not the cripple 2 gs that was released, the full 2GS is what we reference

[zzip]

17 minutes ago, _The Doctor__ said:

Not the cripple 2 gs that was released, the full 2GS is what we reference

Fair-enough, but the problem for the Apple IIgs was that the Mac already existed, and the problem for Atari 8-bit was that the ST existed and it's dumb to compete against your own product lines.    Unless there's a world where ST doesn't exist and the 65C816 was Atari's 16-bit strategy and it extends that lineage the way 286, 386 extended the life of the PC.  That would have been nice,  but the 65C816 was late to the party and ST, Mac and Amiga were already being designed around the 68000

Edited August 21, 2023 by zzip

[lightman]

4 hours ago, zzip said:

Such as..?

As @Geister indicated, education is probably the most obvious use-case.

 

There is a significant age range where a modern solution presents difficult problems. "Classic" computers are much better environments for children because of several advantages:

 

1. Very simple setup

2. Instant boot

3. An immutable OS

4. Immediate feedback

5. Lack of networking

 

The fact that an Atari 8-bit could be plugged into any TV and required little more than a power cable and a video cable/adapter was a great start. The hardware was relatively simple, predictable and self-contained. You generally didn't have to worry about models and OS versions.

 

One of the most wonderful things about classic computers is that you can't mess them up in normal usage. You can poke randomly into memory until it crashes, hit reset and you're instantly back to normal. On a modern system, I have seen children erase irrecoverable data in a time-span that few would believe possible. A classic computer can be a great resource because you can let a child do whatever they want and not worry that they delete the file table, corrupt the BIOS or otherwise get into trouble.

 

The instant-on and immediate feedback are also extremely valuable. I have experienced wanting to teach or demonstrate something to a child, only to be hit with the dreaded software update. Software updates alone eat up enough time to kill a child's interest or reduce your teaching time enough to ruin the lesson. Furthermore, the simplicity of classic computer interfaces means that you can very quickly generate graphics and sound. That feedback is important. We aren't burdened by drivers that fail to load, background processes eating up all the CPU, hardware incompatibilities, etc.

 

While our world these days is built on networking, there's a time and place to do without it. Networking itself introduces enormous complexities and frustrations. Lag, missing/moved resources, time-outs, errors and crashes are common. Additionally for anyone working with kids, network access presents a profoundly difficult resource to control in terms of content.

 

I built a "fantasy computer" to share with kids amongst my family and friends, using a cheap single board computer (SBC). I integrated a version of BASIC and some simple graphics. It was slow to boot but it was still a hit (I generally had to boot it beforehand). However, I always had the concern that the kids were going to figure out how to break out into the Linux OS and cause inevitable chaos. That didn't happen because one day, the SBC simply stopped working entirely. I suspect it was poorly manufactured. It only had VGA output, which was also a problem.

[lightman]

6 hours ago, vitoco said:

@Franco Catrin's CLC-88 Compy, a mixture of the Atari 800 and ZX Spectrum computers.

 

Thanks. This seems to still be a work-in-progress without any working versions, from what I can tell.

[zzip]

5 minutes ago, lightman said:

As @Geister indicated, education is probably the most obvious use-case.

 

There is a significant age range where a modern solution presents difficult problems. "Classic" computers are much better environments for children because of several advantages:

 

1. Very simple setup

2. Instant boot

3. An immutable OS

4. Immediate feedback

5. Lack of networking

 

Rasperry Pi's were built with education in mind,  they are cheap, quick-booting can use modern languages like Python.   Linux doesn't force disruptive updates on you the way Windows does.   Not allowing privileged access should prevent OS-level damage, but if it still occurs, just swap out the SD card with a spare clean one-  it's no harder if they screw up the DOS disk on a classic computer.

 

Networking doesn't have to be essential, or you can just have local access to say a shared drive and no general internet access to lock them down.

[Rledo]

6 hours ago, Rybags said:

I don't see a lot of point of such computers unless they can use old cartridges and peripherals from a legacy machine.

Otherwise, why not just do the thing as an emulated device and/or use a platform such as RasPi to create it?

 

If I was to jump on board something, I'd like an Atari computer that could attach carts and SIO devices but also have enhanced Antic/GTIA, VBXE, Component and DVI video out, and while there may as well throw in Maria, TIA, other sound chips, and a turbo CPU.

 

+1

[lightman]

6 hours ago, Rybags said:

I don't see a lot of point of such computers unless they can use old cartridges and peripherals from a legacy machine.

Otherwise, why not just do the thing as an emulated device and/or use a platform such as RasPi to create it?

It's definitely a thought. I want a simple computer that can boot instantly, so emulation won't really work. It might be possible to write a bare-metal system for an SBC and have that meet specs.

 

The problem with RPi specifically is that they have been hard to find for a long time. What's been available has been overpriced (sometimes very overpriced).