What are the chances of mylar failing during shipping? Receiving unworking unit from AtariAge member

[donjn]

I purchased an Atari 65xe from a user here (I wont say) and it arrived in non working condition.

The Option, Select and Start buttons do not work.

He mentioned that it worked fine when he shipped it and to check the mylar for corrosion (why would mylar suddnely get corrison in 5 days but not before?)

I open it up, mylar looks fine.

 

He refuses to take the unit back because he sayd I opened it up. He also said the unit is working. The unit does turn on and cartirdges do work. But technically if you cant start a game, isnt that a non working unit?

 

He did give me back $30 to purchase a new mylar but what to do if that does not work and he wont refund me?

What recourse do I have?

 

I even paid him via Paypal "friends and family" to save HIM MONEY but UNPROTECT me.

Guese this is what I get for being a nice guy.

 

Edited August 22, 2023 by donjn

[pirx]

what you described is normal. this is 30y+ low-cost, toy-quality machine, it can fail because you looked at it wrong. buy a new mylar and rock on.

[+x=usr(1536)]

11 minutes ago, donjn said:

I purchased an Atari 65xe from a user here (I wont say) and it arrived in non working condition.

The Option, Select and Start buttons do not work.

He mentioned that it worked fine when he shipped it and to check the mylar for corrosion (why would mylar suddnely get corrison in 5 days but not before?)

I open it up, mylar looks fine.

 

He refuses to take the unit back because he sayd I opened it up. He also said the unit is working. The unti does turn on and cartirdges do work. But technically if you cant start a game, isnt that a non working unit?

 

He did give me back $30 to purchase a new mylar but what to do if that does not work and he wont refund me?

What recourse do I have?

 

I even paid him via Paypal "friends and family" to save HIM MONEY but UNPROTECT me.

Guese this is what I get for being a nice guy.

If the buttons were working before the machine was shipped, it's entirely possible that the mylar was borderline and not yet showing symptoms.  Add in the general treatment that packages receive in transit - including changes in ambient temperature and humidity - and yes, it is possible that it could have been working when shipped but not when it arrived.

 

Note that I say the above without taking sides one way or the other; I also have no interest in doing so.

 

 

[donjn]

Okay ordered new mylar, we will see.

[+Stephen]

I hate to say it, but it may not be the mylar.  PoKey (the sound chip) handles the entire keyboard EXCEPT for - start, select, and option, which are read by the GTIA chip.  It's possible that chip just died.  I find it highly unlikely that only those 3 function keys would be indicative of a bad mylar.

[+x=usr(1536)]

2 minutes ago, Stephen said:

I hate to say it, but it may not be the mylar.  PoKey (the sound chip) handles the entire keyboard EXCEPT for - start, select, and option, which are read by the GTIA chip.  It's possible that chip just died.  I find it highly unlikely that only those 3 function keys would be indicative of a bad mylar.

Which is a good point.  Could be a failed chip, could be cold solder joints.  Given that it's an XE, either one is a possibility.

 

Shipping does weird things to machines.

[donjn]

If a new mylar does not fix the issue and he wont refund, should I post in the bad trader alert area?

Edited August 22, 2023 by donjn

[+warerat]

Sure, go ahead.  It won't damage my reputation.

[donjn]

6 minutes ago, warerat said:

Sure, go ahead.  It won't damage my reputation.

If the new mylar does not fix the issue and you wont do a return I would think it should damage your reputation.

 

Im the guy who is getting screwed out of $70 here, and I left your name out of it out of respect.

Im the guy who sent you money via friends and family (losing protection in the process) to save YOU money.

And Im the jerk right?

Edited August 22, 2023 by donjn

[_The Doctor__]

Dear @donjn,

 

You asked a question and it was answered, the POKEY chip or keyboard  chips might need a re-seat and the mylar might have shifted or rubbed in shipment, as could the chips. You were given ample refund to replace the mylar sans even having attempted simple clean and reseat or mylar adjustment/ insertion.

 

If you had relaxed instead of working yourself frantic over the matter and stressing with continued mention of your loss... that might not even be a loss...

then you could expect a response such as you got. WareRat probably would have bent over backwards helping you with suggestions and tech repair tips which he is extremely good at. But you may have burned that bridge by issuing the bad trader alert/threats to come, which would have included his name. So saying you didn't post his name while threatening to do just that before things could take a rational and natural course has landed you in this situation.

 

All you can do now is relax, seriously chill and on a good day work on the issue. You might even consider how you approach folks under anxiety or stress and rethink communication process and tone. Perhaps an apology might get you some help, maybe not. You are very worked up over something you don't even know is a loss yet. Things might just work out and be okay.

Edited August 22, 2023 by _The Doctor__

[+Stephen]

25 minutes ago, donjn said:

If the new mylar does not fix the issue and you wont do a return I would think it should damage your reputation.

 

Im the guy who is getting screwed out of $70 here, and I left your name out of it out of respect.

Im the guy who sent you money via friends and family (losing protection in the process) to save YOU money.

And Im the jerk right?

Again - may I ask where you are located?  I am putting myself on the line here, and offering to fix this machine for you for free if you need help (free labour and diagnosis, I don't have a stash of free parts).  wareat is not in the business of ripping people off, these machines are old as shit, but if treated nicely, there are hundreds of us around the globe that will help others to keep our little hobby going.

[donjn]

7 minutes ago, _The Doctor__ said:

Dear @donjn,

 

You asked a question and it was answered, the POKEY chip or keyboard  chips might need a re-seat and the mylar might have shifted or rubbed in shipment, as could the chips. You were given ample refund to replace the mylar sans even having attempted simple clean and reseat or mylar adjustment/ insertion.

 

If you had relaxed instead of working yourself frantic over the matter and stressing with continued mention of your loss... that might not even be a loss...

then you could expect a response such as you got. WareRat probably would have bent over backwards helping you with suggestions and tech repair tips which he is extremely good at. But you may have burned that bridge by issuing the bad trader alert/threats to come, which would have included his name. So saying you didn't post his name while threatening to do just that before things could take a rational and natural course has landed you in this situation.

 

All you can do now is relax, seriously chill and on a good day work on the issue. You might even consider how you approach folks under anxiety or stress and rethink communication process and tone. Perhaps an apology might get you some help, maybe not. You are very worked up over something you don't even know is a loss yet. Things might just work out and be okay.

I appreciate your response but allow me for a moment.

I am not frantic, I havent yelled, or gotten out of control. 

 

He asks me to open up the unit to inspect the mylar.

Now that it is open, he said he can no longer offer a refund if the unit doesnt work because I opened it up.

Doesnt that come accross as disingenuous?

 

I asked Warerat several times and showed him pictures of the mylar and he did not respond with anythoughts or tech help. 
As soon as I asked for a possible refund, he shut himself off to me 100%

 

 

[donjn]

2 minutes ago, Stephen said:

Again - may I ask where you are located?  I am putting myself on the line here, and offering to fix this machine for you for free if you need help (free labour and diagnosis, I don't have a stash of free parts).  wareat is not in the business of ripping people off, these machines are old as shit, but if treated nicely, there are hundreds of us around the globe that will help others to keep our little hobby going.

Oh and I know he has a good reputation absolutely.
I am in Los Angeles and I thank you.

But I ask what did I do to get on his bad side?
Simply asking for a refund and now Im ignored?

I posted this topic and left his name out of it.

 

[donjn]

16 minutes ago, _The Doctor__ said:

Dear @donjn,

 

You asked a question and it was answered, the POKEY chip or keyboard  chips might need a re-seat and the mylar might have shifted or rubbed in shipment, as could the chips. You were given ample refund to replace the mylar sans even having attempted simple clean and reseat or mylar adjustment/ insertion.

 

If you had relaxed instead of working yourself frantic over the matter and stressing with continued mention of your loss... that might not even be a loss...

then you could expect a response such as you got. WareRat probably would have bent over backwards helping you with suggestions and tech repair tips which he is extremely good at. But you may have burned that bridge by issuing the bad trader alert/threats to come, which would have included his name. So saying you didn't post his name while threatening to do just that before things could take a rational and natural course has landed you in this situation.

 

All you can do now is relax, seriously chill and on a good day work on the issue. You might even consider how you approach folks under anxiety or stress and rethink communication process and tone. Perhaps an apology might get you some help, maybe not. You are very worked up over something you don't even know is a loss yet. Things might just work out and be okay.

I opened up and checked all the chips they looked good. In fact the inside of the unit is spotless, its in great condition. 

[+x=usr(1536)]

Just now, donjn said:

I opened up and checked all the chips they looked good. In fact the inside of the unit is spotless, its in great condition. 

Right, but that doesn't mean that something hasn't come unseated / unplugged / desoldered.  Like I said, weird things happen in shipping.

[_The Doctor__]

Wiggle the chips into their sockets. reseat mylar cable.

[donjn]

1 minute ago, _The Doctor__ said:

Wiggle the chips into their sockets. reseat mylar cable.

Did all that, several times. I must have reseated the mylar ribbon 10 times now, nothing. 

[_The Doctor__]

I'd take the man up on his offer.

[+mytek]

First of all did the seller say that the machine he was selling you had a warranty included (presumably by him) as part of the deal? Or that he would refund your money if it didn't work in all regards when you received it? What were the terms of the sale?

 

Keep in mind that you bought a 40+ year old machine, so in my way of thinking that was done at your own risk unless the seller said he would repair or replace the unit if it failed, or give you a full refund. The fact that he gave you $30 back to put towards a new mylar is actually very commendable.

 

And finally if the machine did indeed work in all regards when it was sold and pre-tested by the seller, having something fail after it left the sellers hands really is beyond their control - assuming they did a good job of packaging it for shipment and they did indeed confirm that it worked in all regards when it was still in their possession.

 

Once again let me remind you that the computer you purchased is 40+ years old and subject to anything failing at any time due to age. After all you aren't buying something brand new off the show room floor. Welcome to the world of retro computing. If you plan on pursuing this hobby, you might also want to consider learning how to diagnose and repair these old machines, because those skills will certainly be needed as part of the hobby.

[donjn]

15 minutes ago, mytek said:

First of all did the seller say that the machine he was selling you had a warranty included (presumably by him) as part of the deal?

 

Keep in mind that you bought a 40+ year old machine, so in my way of thinking that was done at your own risk unless the seller said he would repair or replace the unit if it failed.

 

And finally if the machine did indeed work in all regards when it was sold and pre-tested by the seller, having something fail after it left the sellers hands really is beyond their control - assuming they did a good job of packaging it for shipment and they did indeed confirm that it worked in all regards when it was still in their possession.

 

Once again let me remind you that the computer you purchased is 40+ years old and subject to anything failing at any time due to age. Welcome to the world of retro computing. If you plan on pursuing this hobby, you might also want to consider learning how to diagnose and repair these old machines, because those skills will certainly be needed as part of the hobby.

So, what if he turned on the unit but did not specifically test the Option, Start etc keys?  Whats to stop sellers from doing anything they want? I mean, his reputation is good so I wont assume the worst but I point blank asked him did you specially check the Start, Option keys etc and he did not respond. I even said "look, if you didnt test those thats okay just tell me". Nope, no response.

 

I am well aware that we are dealing with 40 year old machines etc but the guy told me to open up the computer then a minute later said he could no longer accept a return because I opened it up. Thats almost like being set up. I mean, listen to what I wrote..

 

I feel like I am in the twlight zone here. Or is this an Eyes Wide Shut situation? You all have your community and I am not a long time member with thousands of posts. Im still an Outsider and not in the ring of trust, so basically everythig I say is being viewed through a filter. 

Edited August 22, 2023 by donjn

[+mytek]

1 hour ago, donjn said:

Im the guy who is getting screwed out of $70 here

Sounds to me like you got a good deal considering the normal going price for even an 'as is' or 'un-tested' machine usually is more than that now days.

 

-------------------

 

Without getting into all the details about your transaction with the seller, if it was me I would accept the fact that buying a very old machine might not be 100% OK even if the seller said that they had tested it. And from your description of the state of the machine, it sounds like it should be relatively simple to fix what is wrong. After all it does power-up and pretty much everything is working except for those 3 keys.

 

Lets troubleshoot

So for starters I would us this schematic as reference...

 

Looking at U17 (GTIA) you can see the 3 inputs of interest S0, S1, S2, which are Start, Select, Option respectively. If you take a wire from ground to any of those GTIA inputs and you get the corresponding console key functions, then you know that your GTIA chip is OK and can move on. So if that is true, then there is most likely something wrong on the keyboard side of things or where it plugs into the motherboard. Often times a crack can develop on the membrane's circuit traces going to this connector from the keyboard.

 

However if grounding out those inputs on the GTIA fails to get a console key response, then you need a replacement GTIA chip.

 

In either case the seller gave you back $30 which should cover the cost.

[+mytek]

Here's the keyboard side of things...

 

Notice the common for the Console keys (3). If that has lost connection due to a cracked membrane trace, you will lose the 3 keys as you mentioned, and the Reset key and the LED as well.

 

LINK to Full Schematic

 

EDIT: Maybe also check that the membrane connection is fully seated on the motherboard side - it may have loosened during shipping .

[+warerat]

I stand behind this transaction.  I offered you a $30 refund to replace the mylar, which is a known failure point on these keyboards.  YOU AGREED and asked for $30 back.  I sent the money via PayPal FRIENDS AND FAMILY because "I didn't want you to get screwed over", what a nice guy I am.  End of story and transaction.  Apparently not, because you have an axe to grind and have buyers remorse.  You got a working 65XE shipped for $70, which is an extremely fair price.  The machine was tested 100%.  I tested it, and I absolutely know how these machines work along with the foibles being of this vintage and it was advertised as such.  No scam, no tricks.  Just good honest-to-god description of what was being sold in good faith.  You consider it non-working because three keys don't work, and I sent you the link to the resistor fix AND money to replace the mylar.  So now you want to change those terms and demand a full refund. 

 

This transaction was littered with red flags and it gave me pause and now I understand why.  Allow me to add some color so the other folks can understand where I'm coming from:

1. "Does this have S-Video" and "Can this run 800XL software"; your first questions.  So, that immediately established that you are not familiar with these machines.  But yet you question my thoroughness in testing the machine.  Every key and port was checked.  Do I need to provide a certified Hi-Pot passed burn report to make you happy?  I've sold other machines with no issues here.
2. You wanted to me throw extra things into the deal (low value cart).  That's not what was included and the machine was already packed up.  So from the on-set you attempted to dilute the value of my sale.  I'm not a bad guy for not wanting to tear the box back open that wasn't part of the original sale.
3. Within MINUTES of you paying, you started blowing up my private messenger asking for a response and how you're nervous about sending strangers money.  That's funny, I'm nervous about sending vintage computer gear to people who don't know anything about them and hound for a response right away.  I mean it's not like a have a full-time job or anything.  Within minutes I sent you the tracking number.  And now I'm rewarded with this nonsense and the expectation that I provide support for every single question with a 15-minute SLA.

You're not being set up.  And your post count has nothing to do with anything.  You bought an old machine, it wasn't 100% as expected, went to the forum to validate your suspicion of me and instead got the answers you don't want.  No one here is viewing you under a filter.  You claim out of respect you didn't want to say my name but I'm not ashamed for anything, because I did nothing wrong.  I'm sorry the machine didn't perform leaving my high-humidity area to yours.  But it is an easy fix, and any amount of research into the matter would have yielded the answers you have been given. 

 

I don't want the machine back because to be blunt, I don't trust your skill set working on this machine.  You can't make everyone happy but in no way can you frame this that I screwed you over. 

 

 

[reifsnyderb]

8 minutes ago, mytek said:

Here's the keyboard side of things...

 

Notice the common for the Console keys (3). If that has lost connection due to a cracked membrane trace, you will lose the 3 keys as you mentioned, and the Reset key and the LED as well.

 

LINK to Full Schematic

This looks like the most likely answer.  It seems weird to have the GTIA chip lose 3 pins at the same time.

[+mytek]

2 minutes ago, reifsnyderb said:

This looks like the most likely answer.  It seems weird to have the GTIA chip lose 3 pins at the same time.

Yeah that's what I suspect as well or just a loose connection to the motherboard from the keyboard which could easily have happened during shipment.