An upgrade too far?

[13matt]

I know this might not be right for the forum, but with the recent port of DOOM I did some digging on other ports for 8 bit machines. 

 

I found quite an inventive bit of tech which used a raspberry pi in a NES cart to run the game while using the video and sound hardware on the console to provide the output. 

 

This has been done in a similar way with the RAD expansion cart for the c64 - again containing a raspberry pi to run DOOM "on the c64."

 

Am I being picky, or is that kind of cheating? 

 

If someone were to pop a modern processor into an A8 cartridge which took the weight off the 6502....

 

What I'm asking is, can an upgrade be too extreme? 

[bfollowell]

IMHO, yes, things can go too far. In the example you gave, you said it yourself. The game is actually running on a Raspberry Pi and the cartridge circuitry basically turns the console into not much more than a glorified video circuit.

 

At least that's my take on it.

 

[Wrathchild]

26 minutes ago, 13matt said:

If someone were to pop a modern processor into an A8 cartridge which took the weight off the 6502....

It's called an UNOCart
 

 

[reifsnyderb]

1 hour ago, 13matt said:

I know this might not be right for the forum, but with the recent port of DOOM I did some digging on other ports for 8 bit machines. 

 

I found quite an inventive bit of tech which used a raspberry pi in a NES cart to run the game while using the video and sound hardware on the console to provide the output. 

 

This has been done in a similar way with the RAD expansion cart for the c64 - again containing a raspberry pi to run DOOM "on the c64."

 

Am I being picky, or is that kind of cheating? 

 

If someone were to pop a modern processor into an A8 cartridge which took the weight off the 6502....

 

What I'm asking is, can an upgrade be too extreme? 

Atari planned on doing something similar by having a Z80 card, in a 1090XL box, connected to an Atari XL.  So, it's not a new concept at all, just much newer technology.

[+kheller2]

Atari CX55.  Been done. And it’s cheating. 

[+x=usr(1536)]

6 minutes ago, kheller2 said:

Atari CX55.  Been done. And it’s cheating. 

How?  It's basically a 4-port 2600.  It uses the 5200 for power and display, but doesn't use any of the 5200's ICs.  Neither one can communicate with the other - at least, not without significant modification.

[+kheller2]

6 hours ago, x=usr(1536) said:

How?  It's basically a 4-port 2600.  It uses the 5200 for power and display, but doesn't use any of the 5200's ICs.  Neither one can communicate with the other - at least, not without significant modification.

With regards to the original poster’s comment about doom, yes it isn’t exactly the same. If the VCS was running on a PI and using the 5200 pokey, then it would be closer.  My point being Doom does not run on a C64 or NES, it is emulated on a PI and uses the computer as power, sound and possible display.  It’s still neat.

[zzip]

16 hours ago, 13matt said:

I know this might not be right for the forum, but with the recent port of DOOM I did some digging on other ports for 8 bit machines. 

 

I found quite an inventive bit of tech which used a raspberry pi in a NES cart to run the game while using the video and sound hardware on the console to provide the output. 

 

This has been done in a similar way with the RAD expansion cart for the c64 - again containing a raspberry pi to run DOOM "on the c64."

 

Am I being picky, or is that kind of cheating? 

 

If someone were to pop a modern processor into an A8 cartridge which took the weight off the 6502....

 

What I'm asking is, can an upgrade be too extreme? 

There are people producing 2600 carts with embedded ARM chips too.

 

It's a bit of a contentious issue around here.

 

For me,  I love seeing people do new tricks with old hardware,  but if it's done by strapping on a modern processor that wouldn't have been available during the system's commercial life, it's much less impressive and feels like cheating.

 

On the other hand there's a whole homebrew scene where people are happy to buy new carts for their old systems and don't really care how the sausage is made.

[bfollowell]

Yeah, and if we take that approach, then we may not have upgrades like U1MB, VBXE, etc., and I don't think any of us would consider those as going too far, even though they really may be in comparison to our original 80s tech. I'll agree that it's a slippery slope.

 

[Rybags]

I don't have a problem when it's a CPU enhancement/coprocessor such as some of these examples.

Even despite the assistant being potentially 100x faster than the host.

VBXE enhances video and is largely accepted.  It can also assist in doing better legacy graphics or emulating other systems (my Quadrillion conversion from Plus4 does C= bitmap to Atari translation)

 

The 2600 module for 5200 is somewhat different.  Such a device uses the host as a passthrough and it barely participates in the experience.

 

[+x=usr(1536)]

7 hours ago, Rybags said:

The 2600 module for 5200 is somewhat different.  Such a device uses the host as a passthrough and it barely participates in the experience.

It's enough of a passthrough device that the video and audio passing through the 5200 take their own paths to the RF modulator completely outside of the video circuitry used by the 5200.

 

There are a number of misconceptions floating around about that particular device; I certainly had my own at one point.  But it is literally a 4-port with no Colour / B&W switch using the 5200 as an RF modulator and PSU.

 

(Not aimed specifically at you, @Rybags - just mentioning how non-interactive with the 5200 the CX55 actually is for anyone wondering.)

[+kheller2]

28 minutes ago, x=usr(1536) said:

There are a number of misconceptions floating around about that particular device; I certainly had my own at one point.  But it is literally a 4-port with no Colour / B&W switch using the 5200 as an RF modulator and PSU.

 

This is very true.  I added a B/W switch to mine.  The last toy project was to actually just have a docking station that the 55 plugged into that supplied power and had A/V output.

 

I agree this is all a slippery sloop and hard to define where the line crosses.   Putting an ARM in a 2600 cart is getting close, IMO, but it depends on what it's used for.  Pitfall II had its own chip as well, there 7800 games that use pokey (but pokey was sort of thought about and then nixed in the original design, but it certainly can be considered part of the original intent).   To me VBXE, U1MB, 65C816 etc.. are hardware enhancements that could be considered progressions from the original design.  That isn't "emulation" in my book and they aren't doing most of the work.  The C128 is sort of a hybrid thing, but still true to the C64.  I wish Atari had made a 828XL with some enhancements.  [Of course this can take a nasty detour into the realm of the 8088/Atari 800 PC prototype...]

 

The ATR8000 and IndusGT when running CPM, as we know is just using the Atari as a dumb Wyse terminal (for the most part).  I'm sure if the XL PBI had A&V lines there would have been thought given to a 1090 VCS card, as stupid as that would be.  The 1090 CPM card wasn't stupid, perhaps a bit dated by the time it might have come out.  A better 850 card might have been useful -- I'm only thinking of all the model railroaders who used 850s (but mostly Apple IIs) to control their train sets. 

[+x=usr(1536)]

7 minutes ago, kheller2 said:

The last toy project was to actually just have a docking station that the 55 plugged into that supplied power and had A/V output.

Funnily enough, I have exactly that sitting half-built on the table right now   Other projects (and having a couple of other ways to play 2600 games) have kinda back-burnered it, though.

[zzip]

19 minutes ago, kheller2 said:

I agree this is all a slippery sloop and hard to define where the line crosses.   Putting an ARM in a 2600 cart is getting close, IMO, but it depends on what it's used for.  Pitfall II had its own chip as well, there 7800 games that use pokey (but pokey was sort of thought about and then nixed in the original design, but it certainly can be considered part of the original intent).   To me VBXE, U1MB, 65C816 etc.. are hardware enhancements that could be considered progressions from the original design.  That isn't "emulation" in my book and they aren't doing most of the work.  The C128 is sort of a hybrid thing, but still true to the C64.  I wish Atari had made a 828XL with some enhancements.  [Of course this can take a nasty detour into the realm of the 8088/Atari 800 PC prototype...]

At the end of the day I don't really care what hardware gets crammed into a cart-  As long as you don't try to pass the game off as native or 'period accurate'.

 

But I do have to wonder why people want to extend ancient hardware like that.    An RPi can run Doom natively better than it can assist an NES or C64 running Doom.   But I suppose people just like the challenge?

[FifthPlayer]

3 hours ago, zzip said:

At the end of the day I don't really care what hardware gets crammed into a cart-  As long as you don't try to pass the game off as native or 'period accurate'.

 

 

Game console makers have built add-on hardware bundled into the cartridge for years, and yes some of them are definitely "period accurate".  Activision made the DPC chip that acts as a co-processor for Pitfall II on the Atari 2600, and then there's Nintendo who made the SuperFX chip to support 3D polygonal games on the Super NES, to name just two examples.  Some 7800 carts include a POKEY chip.

Edited August 31, 2023 by FifthPlayer

[votraxman]

Whatever makes it better looks good to me.

 

[_The Doctor__]

math co processor in a cart was done on the Atari 8 bit for 3D gaming, and other uses. Super Charger cart and Assault Force 3D for example. Their were sound carts etc as well. Lets not forget video cards for the 800 and PBI video for XL/XE

Edited September 1, 2023 by _The Doctor__

[sl0re]

Sorta cheating but I'd still be interested in emulator carts just to avoid needing more consoles on my desk. 

[Overange]

This is a very interesting topic, has anyone used a 7800 GameDrive Cartridge?

 

Apart from it being just a Cartridge, that also has POKEY features, the one feature that I think is really good is that is has RGB Video and Audio output built into the Cartridge.

Not only that it also controls the Joystick ports and allows 3 or 6 button Megadrive pads to be used via an adapter.

 

If this is achieved on a Console just using its cartridge port, imagine what could be done on the 8 Bit lines...

That being said, AVGcart/SUBcart has got some really cool features and maybe could be the cart that offers even more features in the future.

 

 

[mimo]

2 hours ago, Overange said:

This is a very interesting topic, has anyone used a 7800 GameDrive Cartridge?

Yes, absolutely amazing cart.

Pokey, YM and bup sound emulation (FPGA)

Save states, cheat modes, RGB video, it really is the ultimate 7800 cart. When paired with the mega drive joystick adapter to give full control of the carts options without having to leave the couch it's just stunning 

[Mr Robot]

Let's not forget that Fujinet is basically this.

The ESP32 is doing all the heavy lifting, the Atari itself isn't making a Wi-Fi connection or downloading stuff over the internet. There is no TCP/IP stack running on the Atari. No Bluetooth, No CP/M

 

 

 

 

[Mr Robot]

NT

 

 

Edited September 30, 2023 by Mr Robot

[_The Doctor__]

Except fujinet is serial not parallel and all the 'fun' issues etc.

Edited September 30, 2023 by _The Doctor__

[reifsnyderb]

5 hours ago, _The Doctor__ said:

Except fujinet is serial not parallel and all the 'fun' issues etc.

There's no movement on a parallel version, either.   😞