Gotek for your IBM PC JR use for essentially about $1

[newTIboyRob]

So in my related PC JR thread, one member was kind enough to mention a Gotek device that would be able to convert the files for 2 different programs for which I have been searching, which are Supercalc 2, a spreadsheet, and WordStar a wordprocessor. It seems that the Gotek's price is $25.

 

I have no plans in doing anything more with the PC JR other than obtaining these 2 programs. That is as far as I want to take my journeys with JR for the near distant future.

 

This is where you come in.

 

If you've ever wanted this Gotek device for whatever IBM related software you've wanted, and you buy the Gotek however, I am willing to pay you a total of $24 (includes the shipping) to convert those 2 programs to 2 separate 5.25" floppies, of course, testing your work to make sure they would run in a real PC Jr before shipping them of course. The links to those files:

 

https://winworldpc.com/product/supercalc/2-v100  
https://winworldpc.com/product/wordstar/for-pcjr

So, in short. You get to keep your Gotek in case you would like to get whatever software for yourself. I would have my working disks. Win Win as I see it.

There is no "catch" here; I have paid people via Paypal in the past, as well as by personal check, and never had a problem with anyone, anywhere, anytime, ever.

 

You may ask why I am not doing it myself?  The short answer is... those of you who are into this and know how to do this would likely prove a safer bet than my attempts. You will simply know more about navigation than I.  Not to mention, as I say, I wouldn't need the Gotek anyways.

 

That is why this Gotek would cost you about $1, and you keep it. It all boils down simply to just a matter for you if can you invest a little of your time and knowledge to make and send these disks to me.  I am in New York.

Feel free to email me to discuss further details.

 

Thank you

Edited August 31, 2023 by newTIboyRob

[newTIboyRob]

Also note that I am not "version specific" with these 2 programs, meaning I don't a version preference with either program, so if you can do any of those versions of Supercalc or Wordstar to floppy, I will be more than elated.

 

For example, it looks like this Supercalc version:  https://winworldpc.com/product/supercalc/3-v100  (not the original posting link) actually mentions the PC JR, though I don't know if all the necessary files would fit and work on a 5.25" floppy for Jr.   See, this is where and why you come in.... like I stated previously... I am less likely to know than you about what is needed and/or required!

Edited August 31, 2023 by newTIboyRob

[newTIboyRob]

Ebay isn't turning up much on this Gotek in this price range. Perhaps check my other PC JR thread that I updated...

[Krebizfan]

When I checked Ebay, I got a low price of $24.11 which is higher than I expected. Some offerings were several times that which seems a bit extreme considering that the brand new Goteks were about $30 at Amazon. The joys of inflation. 

 

I looked at what I would need to make the disks. Does my 360K floppy drive still work? Do I have 360K floppies that haven't turned into a pile of rusty paint shavings? I also lack a PC Jr to verify the applications would run on a PC Jr. It would be annoying to put in the effort and cost involved and not have a happily running destination system. Using a Gotek and running the system off of disk images would be another path which costs about the same. I will miss the physical thunks of disk drives but mylar sheets covered in paint were never expected to last this long. 

[newTIboyRob]

Forgive me here, because I simply do not know... but I'm thinking that to use this Gotek and run the system off of disk images, wouldn't there be an inner tinkering needed to Jr?  Way above my head.... Also, if I somehow hooked this Gotek up to my current PC using USB, if that even works, and somehow got those disk images into the Gotek... don't I still have the journey, actually the dilemma, of getting those images then converted to the 5.25 floppy that JR's drive needs to run the program?  It doesn't seem hopeful here ☹️

Edited September 2, 2023 by newTIboyRob

[Krebizfan]

6 hours ago, newTIboyRob said:

Forgive me here, because I simply do not know... but I'm thinking that to use this Gotek and run the system off of disk images, wouldn't there be an inner tinkering needed to Jr?  Way above my head.... Also, if I somehow hooked this Gotek up to my current PC using USB, if that even works, and somehow got those disk images into the Gotek... don't I still have the journey, actually the dilemma, of getting those images then converted to the 5.25 floppy that JR's drive needs to run the program?  It doesn't seem hopeful here ☹️

The main bit of tinkering would be to remove the floppy drive on the Jr and put the floppy emulator in its place. That is the entire idea of the floppy emulator. Select the proper disk image and the computer thinks that is the disk inserted. Because the PC Jr uses a 360K floppy drive and the default firmware on a Gotek emulates a 1.44 MB floppy drive, it would be necessary to place different firmware on the Gotek. https://www.brutman.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1135 and https://www.brutman.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=996 might give an idea of the complexity involved. 

 

Note that the Gotek plugs into the floppy cable. It has a USB port to accept a USB drive with a number of disk images. I think the standard firmware is restricted to 1,000 images so only about 400 MB of a flash drive would be used. The Gotek may not be the optimum solution for your use case but it is an alternative to waiting for someone to create physical disks from images. Or if you can figure out how to have two floppy drives on the Jr, one could be a Gotek and then the disk images could be transferred to physical disks. 

Edited September 2, 2023 by Krebizfan

[newTIboyRob]

This was all beautifully explained, thank you.  You've made it much more clear to me now.  All you mentioned was important, but your first and last sentences were totally key, especially that last sentence. Still might be over my head though, as I like to do things with more than just like a 30% confidence level. (I watched a great YouTube video on this topic,  IBM PCjr - Gotek Floppy Emulator - HXC2001 Firmware, ... but it still didn't show a visual of how we installed all that, with a step by step explanation of said installation, which is what I would have needed to do this- to both see and hear, not just read, to make sure I was doing it correctly, that is, if I was going to attempt this at all. But again, for my simple needs... doesn't seem feasible.

 

So I guess my choices now are wait to see what pops up on Ebay in terms of buying physical disks or even any kind of word processor and spreadsheet that JR will accept or just wait for someone to create physical disks from images. I liked your last idea the best, however I honestly still wouldn't know exactly how to do that.

 

I wish more people would view both this thread and this website, because, though we're talking about a narrower field of people with these old IBM's, I can't believe there isn't someone out there who hasn't had success with the Gotek, JR and making physical 5.25" disks from disk images. Maybe we wait a bit, like the agony of fishing.

Edited September 2, 2023 by newTIboyRob

[newTIboyRob]

Digesting above made me wonder... is it possible to leave JR's disk drive untouched, but somehow still use some other kind of outside port to run the emulator... I'm thinking this is probably not doable because like in a car you can't just put a new engine where the carburator goes and functions... but something along these lines... using some kind of way to use say the side expansion port or the like to run the emulator with some other kind of conversion. This way the inner drive is unaffected hardware-wise and maybe say a cable connected to the Emulator on the side or back of JR will enable it to communicate with the inner circuitry.  Or even just a removal of the outer casing and just plug one thing in there, with limited tinkering, no soldering, etc. I am thinking all thoughts are too simplistic and/or not possible, because this is more involved, correct?

Edited September 2, 2023 by newTIboyRob

[Krebizfan]

26 minutes ago, newTIboyRob said:

Digesting above made me wonder... is it possible to leave JR's disk drive untouched, but somehow still use some other kind of outside port to run the emulator... I'm thinking this is probably not doable because like in a car you can't just put a new engine where the carburator goes and functions... but something along these lines... using some kind of way to use say the side expansion port or the like to run the emulator with some other kind of conversion. This way the inner drive is unaffected hardware-wise and maybe say a cable connected to the Emulator on the side or back of JR will enable it to communicate with the inner circuitry.  Not possible, correct?

Yes, it is possible but it isn't easy. http://brutmanlabs.org/PCjr/pcjr_faq.html the first question is about adding disk drives. https://www.pcjribm.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=119 includes a link to a PDF describing the simplest modification to do today. It restores the components that should have been on the floppy controller that let the controller have 2 drives. It requires comfort with a soldering iron.

 

PCJr expansion chassis and replacement floppy controllers were scarce 30 years ago and the only way to get one now is to strip them from another Jr. The attempts to put a Gotek in a parallel port floppy drive enclosure have not been successful. 

[newTIboyRob]

....as the windows close... helpful once again, Kreb, thank you.

[newTIboyRob]

At this point, I would even take the 2 ROM cartridges of Lotus 1-2-3, but talk about a longshot. I've won races at 50-1, but this one seems even higher than that.

The link also mentions the disk image concept, but then we are talking about emulators, again?  I suppose so, unless someone has an idea here from the link.

 

https://winworldpc.com/product/lotus-1-2-3/1a-pcjr-cart

 

My final thought is... I do still have Lotus 1-2-3 on floppy for my 5150. It was too big a program for JR to execute, hence their making the 2 cart ROM version shown in the above link.

 

Another possibility, though again a long shot, is if I listed the files and removed those taking up quite a bit of room, with the thought that maybe the reduced file/size would now run on JR. The concept might work, as I have a PFS: File disk that also ran on the 5150 back in the day, which also runs on JR. You just never really know: I have a PFS:Write word processor that doesn't run on JR, but this PFS: File does.

 

But for this possibility, I would either need:  someone who really knows the files and extensions and what they likely contain, (e.g. I wouldn't delete EXE or SYS files, more like HELP  and/or tutorial or spell checker type files) and after I post the list, tell me which ones to delete to still make the program potentially run on JR, or, I could make a copy of the Lotus 1-2-3 disk on the 5150 and just randomly delete files taking up space but that would still make the program still work on JR. At least it keeps me away from hardware mods, soldering, unknown-result-tinkering, and since it would be a copy, just a blank disk, which I could later just format over and use again anyway.

 

Bottom line: At this point, I would take any spreadsheet program usable on the IBM PC Jr, even if it wasn't the one I originally was after.

Thoughts?

Edited September 3, 2023 by newTIboyRob

[Krebizfan]

The problem running 123 on the Jr is memory. The 128K Jr has only 112K available since 16K is assigned to video. 123 needs a minimum of 192K to launch; putting about 128K on cartridges gives the Jr barely enough room to run 123. The Jr was designed when the 256K motherboards for PC and XT was available. IBM saved about 5% on the cost of the Jr but caused so many problems in the process. 

 

Removing files from the disk won't help squeeze 123 into the limited memory space. Visicalc in its very limited original form for the PC should fit in the memory. https://www.atarimagazines.com/compute/issue59/review_lotus_123.php is a period review that shows how limited the Jr's memory was. 

 

If you can transfer BASIC files over to the Jr, there was a reasonably capable spreadsheet written in BASIC. https://www.pcjs.org/software/pcx86/sw/misc/pcsig/0001-0999/DISK0224/#pc-calcbas is a clean version of the BASIC source. https://www.geocities.ws/joseph_sixpack/bpc-calc-doc.html is the documentation. It might be enough to produce a few simple demos before the 40th anniversary. 

[newTIboyRob]

Just so I understand about your last link... Where it says "PC-CALC.BAS"... if I just type that entire program in, from line 1 to 9090, in BASICA on my PC JR, (actually starting from line 60 as the prior are just REM statements), save it to floppy 5.25, load say Dos 3.1 and at the A> prompt, type the words PC-CALC and hit enter, it should produce my saved spreadsheet?  (I can't face the thought of syntax errors and the like, so hopefully it is usable!)

 

Also, can I ignore everything else in the link and just type in that program, or is there anything else I need to do from that link that would come in to play?

 

Though it's a long program, I could type it all in, bits and pieces, and get it done. That was terrific of you to point that program out!

 

Edited September 3, 2023 by newTIboyRob

[mr_me]

You should find a way to transfer files to your 5150, then use the 5150 to make floppies for your pcjr.

[newTIboyRob]

mr_me... So I could try typing that program on the 5150, save it there, and then just make a disk while still on the 5150 for the pc jr?

[carlsson]

Whoa! That is well over 500 lines of code.

 

Another solution if you're interested in more recent hardware, would be to get a Greaseweazle board, assuming you can produce a spare 5.25" floppy drive. Those boards run around US $30 plus some cabling. The reason I'm suggesting this over a Gotek is that (1) it would enable you to write actual floppy disks and (2) it supposedly would support multiple of your vintage systems, possibly including the Commodore. The learning curve might be slightly higher, but once you got help to nail down the process, it would make a lot of things easier on your side.

[mr_me]

17 minutes ago, newTIboyRob said:

mr_me... So I could try typing that program on the 5150, save it there, and then just make a disk while still on the 5150 for the pc jr?

Connect your 5150 to a newer computer either by ethernet, serial, or parallel port; transfer files from the newer computer to the 5150, so you don't have to type in programs.

[carlsson]

Hm, yes. Networking the older PC would be one way to go ahead, though it can be hard to find an 8-bit network card with packet drivers usable from DOS. Actually Mike Brutman comes to the rescue again as his networking programs on DOS are lean and very capable, e.g. if you set up a local FTP server for the old PC to fetch files from. Again a bit of a learning curve, but if you tell a man to fish...

[Krebizfan]

I was considering if all else failed, to suggest using one of the current IBM PC BASIC to WAV programs* and play that WAV over the cassette cable to the Jr. It would skip the problems of making a disk image but without special software, BASIC programs are about all that can be transferred that way. It should be easier than retyping a long program. 

 

*These run on modern hardware. 

 

But I don't know if the OP has a cassette cable for the Jr and I haven't used the software to validate that the audio file will load reliably. 

 

A serial or parallel port transfer program on the 5150 would be even simpler since the disk could be created there. The drawback of the network card is getting the drivers on a 5.25" disk so DOS could see the card. Many of these solutions are stymied by the need to get that necessary initial 5.25" disk created. 

Edited September 3, 2023 by Krebizfan

[mr_me]

43 minutes ago, carlsson said:

Hm, yes. Networking the older PC would be one way to go ahead, though it can be hard to find an 8-bit network card with packet drivers usable from DOS. Actually Mike Brutman comes to the rescue again as his networking programs on DOS are lean and very capable, e.g. if you set up a local FTP server for the old PC to fetch files from. Again a bit of a learning curve, but if you tell a man to fish...

 

Eight bit ethernet cards are hard to find but 16-bit cards that are eight bit slot compatible are not.  Microsoft Network Client for DOS does run on a 5150.  Alternatively, something like Norton Commander can transfer files over serial or parallel ports.  Many people have found the Gotek floppy emulator to be the easiest way..

Edited September 3, 2023 by mr_me

[newTIboyRob]

Let's keep something in mind about my particular situation if we can. If you scroll up to my first post on this thread, you will see that getting a spreadsheet and a word processor to work in my PC JR  was my only goal, and getting those on a 5.25 floppy disk I could use in my PC JR were as far as I really wanted to go with the machine.  I really don't plan on using it much in the future for disk images and the like to justify that purchase.

 

Yes, I am aware of the length of that basic program. But.... I am used to typing in programs in the past, and if I can average like 3 lines per minute, we are talking like under 3 hours, with practically no stress, no cables, nothing on the hardware end mod-wise, and no need for any extra devices, thus not even a cost involved, just time. I could even do it in bits and pieces. Again, let's factor all that in to my specific situation/goal here.

 

That being said... if I type in the basic program above, on my 5150, and save to a 5.25 floppy, is it likely it will work on my PC Jr?  If you don't foresee any snags, and since I could type it and save it on either machine, which machine would be the safer choice to type it out and save it on do you think?

 

Edited September 4, 2023 by newTIboyRob

[Krebizfan]

It should run on the PCJr after being transferred by a 5.25" floppy. I tested the code in PC-BASIC with the pcjr settings and it worked. Entered a few values, made a simple equation summing those values, saved the sheet, and loaded the sheet back in. 

Edited September 4, 2023 by Krebizfan

[newTIboyRob]

I appreciate your testing that for me.

 

So just to verify... you think it's best to type it in on the 5150, save to the 5150, and then just insert in PC JR and run, correct?

Edited September 4, 2023 by newTIboyRob

[Krebizfan]

1 hour ago, newTIboyRob said:

I appreciate your testing that for me.

 

So just to verify... you think it's best to type it in on the 5150, save to the 5150, and then just insert in PC JR and run, correct?

That is a method that will work. 

[newTIboyRob]

Ok great, will try. Thanks for all your help Kreb. I do appreciate it.