NTSC palette for VBXE - upcoming September core release -

[Piotr D. Kaczorowski]

Hi!

 

This is a spin-off of the thread 'NTSC core for VBXE?' .

 

 

Since it looks like we're approaching the moment when an official VBXE core with a built-in NTSC palette will be released,

 

I'd like to ask if there are any other NTSC palette suggestions other than the one that comes with the Ultimate 1MB extension plugin?

 

 

(cc: @flashjazzcat, @candle, @tebe)

 

 

 

[wildstar87]

I know that the Altirra NTSC palette was discussed a while back (and I thought decided on).  I'm actually thinking this is the same one being used by the U1MB plug-in, but FJC would know for sure.

[Piotr D. Kaczorowski]

 

Is there any other option besides the NTSC palette that is included in the plugin for Ultimate 1MB?

[Piotr D. Kaczorowski]

 

(1)

 

In another thread, I found the NTSC_Contempt proposal. From what I see, this is also a palette that is used in Ultimate 1MB. I suggest treating it as release candidate 1. Does anyone have other suggestions or accept this choice?

I've also attached a short program that converts an ACT file to a DAT file, as well as 'plugin.s'—a part of the Ultimate 1MB plugin package. This package includes a DAT file and uses it to change the VBXE palette.

 

(2)

 

Let's determine what the resulting file should be that we need. I understand that we need:

1. core FX with the NTSC palette
2. core FX with the NTSC palette + 320KB Rambo extension

 

Do we need GTIA cores with PAL Blending for the NTSC region (NTSC palette)?    Probably not... And if someone wants to mix everything freely, I recommend purchasing Ultimate 1MB, where thanks to Jon's efforts you can set the selected palette to any core that is currently being used.

NTSC_Contemp.dat.hex NTSC_Contemp.dat NTSC_Contemp.act act2datConverter.py plugin.s

[mutterminder]

13 hours ago, Piotr D. Kaczorowski said:

 

Is there any other option besides the NTSC palette that is included in the plugin for Ultimate 1MB?

I hesitate to post here as I haven't actually installed my VBXE in an of my machines yet.  But here is my two cents anyway. For me, thus far, I'm not sure what the proper NTSC palette should look like.  Everyone of my Atari computers has a slightly different appearance on my monitor, such that I usually adjust the hue control to achieve a pleasing visual appearance in a game for which I am familiar with the colors.  Because of this, there should definitely be a choice of palettes, or a least a way to adjust the palette.

 

 

[+-^CrossBow^-]

For me I was using the game RGB with the robot you control that has to access the colored panels as an example of what the colors should be. On the VBXE those colors on the title screen are not the colored Red, Green, and Blue but more like maroon, teal, and purple if I recall and no amount of adjusting the trimmer in my 130xe would correct for it. So I would think that as long as those colors can be made to at lest represent what they are on that games title screen, it is a good universal start. 

 

Might just use the ACP (?) test screen as well but then for some odd reason, I think it actually tends to look correct through the VBXE when games don't so... I would need to check that again.

 

[Piotr D. Kaczorowski]

1 hour ago, mutterminder said:

I hesitate to post here as I haven't actually installed my VBXE in an of my machines yet.  But here is my two cents anyway. For me, thus far, I'm not sure what the proper NTSC palette should look like.  Everyone of my Atari computers has a slightly different appearance on my monitor, such that I usually adjust the hue control to achieve a pleasing visual appearance in a game for which I am familiar with the colors.  Because of this, there should definitely be a choice of palettes, or a least a way to adjust the palette.

 

 

Thank you for your comment. If you haven't suggested another palette, then NTSC_Contempt remains the release candidate.

[Piotr D. Kaczorowski]

20 minutes ago, -^CrossBow^- said:

For me I was using the game RGB with the robot you control that has to access the colored panels as an example of what the colors should be. On the VBXE those colors on the title screen are not the colored Red, Green, and Blue but more like maroon, teal, and purple if I recall and no amount of adjusting the trimmer in my 130xe would correct for it. So I would think that as long as those colors can be made to at lest represent what they are on that games title screen, it is a good universal start. 

 

Might just use the ACP (?) test screen as well but then for some odd reason, I think it actually tends to look correct through the VBXE when games don't so... I would need to check that again.

 

Thank you for your comment.  Please check this sofware with NTSC_Contempt using Altirra emulator.  If you haven't suggested another palette, then NTSC_Contempt remains the release candidate.

[Piotr D. Kaczorowski]

14 hours ago, wildstar87 said:

I know that the Altirra NTSC palette was discussed a while back (and I thought decided on).  I'm actually thinking this is the same one being used by the U1MB plug-in, but FJC would know for sure.

@wildstar87, thank you for your comment.  Actually U1MB uses NTSC_Contempt palette.  Currently it is the release candidate.

[Piotr D. Kaczorowski]

A brief explanation. VBXE is built on an FPGA and it's not possible to implement a permanent change of colors within the FPGA itself. What can be done is:

• build a core with a single standard palette for the NTSC region
• install Ultimate 1MB, which has the ability to set an alternative palette upon computer startup (e.g., an NTSC palette).

[leech]

I believe there is a swap of colors between an 800 and 800xl, no?  Would it make sense to have those two available?  I think the NTSC_Contempt one is based upon the XL+ colors.

 

Ultima IV is a prime example of this, when you are booting it, if you hit Control+X it will prompt you to pick color bars between a blue/brown and a brown/blue.

Edited September 1, 2023 by leech

[Piotr D. Kaczorowski]

10 minutes ago, leech said:

I believe there is a swap of colors between an 800 and 800xl, no?  Would it make sense to have those two available?  I think the NTSC_Contempt one is based upon the XL+ colors.

 

Ultima IV is a prime example of this, when you are booting it, if you hit Control+X it will prompt you to pick color bars between a blue/brown and a brown/blue.

Maybe... It's hard to say, because here in Europe we have PAL. VBXE will not standardly have just NTSC Articting, but this topic will be supplemented at the end of the year. Please, let's focus on the choice of palette. If you have the opportunity, please check the proposed palette on Altirra and see if games and programs look at least 90% the way you would find satisfactory. We know we won't please everyone, but it's a good start (or perhaps more of a continuation?). Let's move on.

[mutterminder]

14 hours ago, leech said:

I believe there is a swap of colors between an 800 and 800xl, no?  Would it make sense to have those two available?  I think the NTSC_Contempt one is based upon the XL+ colors.

 

Ultima IV is a prime example of this, when you are booting it, if you hit Control+X it will prompt you to pick color bars between a blue/brown and a brown/blue.

This is not really the same thing.  That is because Ultima IV uses artifact colors,  the game is not actually using a color palette, it's just that the 800 and 800XL have different video circuitry.  But it would be nice if the VBXE supported artifact color modes.

[leech]

41 minutes ago, mutterminder said:

This is not really the same thing.  That is because Ultima IV uses artifact colors,  the game is not actually using a color palette, it's just that the 800 and 800XL have different video circuitry.  But it would be nice if the VBXE supported artifact color modes.

Yeah, I was just using that as an example.  But you are right of course, and of course artifacting colors on the VBXE would be awesome.  I believe that is what the Apple IIGS does, it emulates the artifacting from the Apple II.

[Piotr D. Kaczorowski]

 

3 hours ago, mutterminder said:

This is not really the same thing.  That is because Ultima IV uses artifact colors,  the game is not actually using a color palette, it's just that the 800 and 800XL have different video circuitry.  But it would be nice if the VBXE supported artifact color modes.

 

2 hours ago, leech said:

Yeah, I was just using that as an example.  But you are right of course, and of course artifacting colors on the VBXE would be awesome.  I believe that is what the Apple IIGS does, it emulates the artifacting from the Apple II.

 

So from what I'm reading, you support the NTSC_Contempt palette as a release candidate.

 

Artifacts are an entirely different matter, which, we can say today, are the result of kind of post-processing performed by the TV. We know that this is a subject that would be attractive to the NTSC region, but it's a completely different topic, and I'll ask about that in another thread. Let's focus on the color palette - that is, whether the blue color in the SELF TEST in the memory test is indeed that shade of blue...

[scottinNH]

19 hours ago, leech said:

I believe there is a swap of colors between an 800 and 800xl, no?  Would it make sense to have those two available?  I think the NTSC_Contempt one is based upon the XL+ colors.

 

Ultima IV is a prime example of this, when you are booting it, if you hit Control+X it will prompt you to pick color bars between a blue/brown and a brown/blue.

(For Piotr): my vote is for "NTSC_Contempt". I am not currently a VBXE customer.

 

(Responding to leech's comment:) I also remember a color shift with the XL, due to artifact timing or something like that. However... even if you went as far as documenting this with screenshots from Ultima running on real hardware, the limitation remains: sounds like VBXE can only contain one (1) palette. Which means it MUST to be the XL/XE.

 

It seems the only alternative would be a 400/800 version of VBXE meaning two (2) products. I'm assuming that idea was considered and rejected.

 

It is kind of neat that Ultimate 1MB will have a way to force override the palette at boot, but as the Atari world moved on to XL/XE colors loading the old palette would not be common.

Edited September 2, 2023 by scottinNH

[Piotr D. Kaczorowski]

NTSC Artifacting / PAL Blending - post-production modules that will be available at the end of 2023.

 

 

• NTSC Artifacting (and PAL Bleding) will be added later this year. However, it will be added externally as part of the Micro HDMI output board project (HAVO), which will include a post-production module during conversion RGB to digital signal. Regardless of the set VBXE core, they will offer the following options: no post-processing, PAL Blending, NTSC Artifacting Mode 1 (400/800), NTSC Artifacting Mode 2 (XL/XE).

 

• A similar post-production module solution will be featured in the upcoming new version of the Medusa upscaler designed by AcidMaker of Lotharek Team.

 

(My yellow posts are general comments on the thread).

Edited September 2, 2023 by Piotr D. Kaczorowski

[Piotr D. Kaczorowski]

Thank you very much to the entire community for the ongoing discussion since 2017, and for the comments in the last few days and hours.

 

The 'NTSC_Contempt' palette has been sent to Electron with a request to build an official VBXE core for the NTSC region specifically with this palette.

 

 

 

[mutterminder]

4 hours ago, Piotr D. Kaczorowski said:

NTSC Artifacting / PAL Blending - post-production modules that will be available at the end of 2023.

 

 

• NTSC Artifacting (and PAL Bleding) will be added later this year. However, it will be added externally as part of the Micro HDMI output board project (HAVO), which will include a post-production module during conversion RGB to digital signal. Regardless of the set VBXE core, they will offer the following options: no post-processing, PAL Blending, NTSC Artifacting Mode 1 (400/800), NTSC Artifacting Mode 2 (XL/XE).

 

• A similar post-production module solution will be featured in the upcoming new version of the Medusa upscaler designed by AcidMaker of Lotharek Team.

 

(My yellow posts are general comments on the thread).

This is great news. I guess this means I have to buy a HAVO as well.

[tebe]

VBXE FX v126 NTSC palette cores

VBXE_FX_v126_cores_ntsc_palette.7z

[+Stephen]

Thanks so much!!!

[Piotr D. Kaczorowski]

We did it! :))))))))))))))))

[Peri Noid]

Good job.