tape based type-in spreadsheet basic program for Atari 600XL or 800XL

[ivop]

6 minutes ago, Stephen said:

Make sure you are writing to the correct channel.  It's been too long - I don't remember if it was left channel = data, right channel = audio (music could b played back while loading, States & Capitals for example did this).  Given that you have just the data file, I would recommend outputting the audio in MONO, therefore writing it to BOTH channels.  This way it doesn't matter which is the correct one.

I already supplied a mono WAV file, so he should be okay.

2 hours ago, newTIboyRob said:

Oh, I was using the green line out jack at the back of the PC into the Aux In on the tape recorder, so still an Out to In. (The Realtek Speakers are in another jack at the back of the computer.)  If they are both outputs back there though, shouldn't the green line out have worked to aux in?   Maybe I should try disconnecting the speakers at the back of the PC and try that jack straight into the tape recorder you are saying?  I played back the tape and no sound/tones had made it to tape. (I noticed that long lead in you mentioned too.)

No sound on the tape means you are either playing the sound to the wrong audio device or you record from the wrong output jack. Google says: Select Start (Windows logo Start button) > Settings (Gear-shaped Settings icon) > System > Sound. In Sound settings, go to Choose your output device, and then select the speakers or headphones you want to use.

 

If you can record straight from the same output you use for your speakers you can leave the settings as is.

Edited September 23, 2023 by ivop

[newTIboyRob]

So there's good news and there's bad news. First, the good news. I unplugged the speakers and used its rear jack, set the master volume to 50 running out of the PC out and tried 8ish on the tape recorder. This time I heard the data, so I thought, maybe, finally, I got it. And.... I did!!!  This version, unlike the type in program, does indeed work, just as everyone-but me- has experienced. I went back and tried the calculations and the replicate we talked about, and those all worked too. The arrows, however, weren't working even in 4x19 mode, but since you can't walk within cells anyway, what's the real use for these anyway?  Maybe you can tell me.

 

I also couldn't figure out the formula to add all the numbers from cells B1 through B12; I only could do say 2 at at time and then total.  I was thinking it was something like a range SUM (B1, 12) or the like, as it wouldn't be all B1+B2... 12, because that wouldn't fit anyway.

 

So just to finish the discussion on the program I typed and the program changes I had to make...   I spent like 1.5 hours again going over the program code, line by line, even with someone assisting me, and found 0 typos... checked every line, every character and with great detail. Why then, were the calculations not working???  Then I looked at the tape itself. By my past recording of music to cassettes, the WAV from CAS file was a longer dump... I would say more like 4 minutes, which is about double in time of what the CLOAD AND CSAVE were using with the type in program, with that being roughly 2 minutes and change. Not sure if it is the bit rate with the .WAV or related concept that made it take longer, or if it was additional data - maybe something was actually missing in my type in program somehow?- that made it take longer. But I did something so that if I really wanted to check that I always can... I took consecutive actual screen shots of the working program, loading in bits and pieces at a time on screen before running it: LIST 1,20... all the way through the last line of the program, for some rainy day when, if I wanted to, I could always check the working program's code vs. the one I typed, just so see where the discrepancy was and get some closure with that...to be honest it's been kind of haunting me. I'm the type that would want to know why the WAV one was working why mine wasn't if there were no typos to blame.  But at least I finally have a working program safely saved to tape. I wrote down the exact settings that enabled me to do so, so when I need to make another tape from the WAV file stored on my computer, I can get it exactly right again.  All this also means that I don't have to work on translating the Apple program I originally started. That was Trouble!

 

Now... the bad news... I thought I would try to save the data in the pic below to test out the save-ability of the data part of the program. I noticed the 410's CSAVE from the program wasn't one long continuous CSAVE as I was used to when saving a basic program; the motor paused, then started, then paused, then started... And guess what?  It ate the tape. Not just ate it, devoured it, like it was JAWS. Completely tangled, irreparable. How's that for cruel irony!   I tried to gently ease it out, but that thing was clawed in there, a  sure goner.  I saw small wires were loose, 1 even came out... long story short... after all my winding road with the program, the thing couldn't be usable anymore.  Even more odd,  before the munch, it was recording and playing back perfectly but not rewinding, and now, after the debacle, it was rewinding but not recording or playing.... Go figure!  But at least I got the main program saved to tape before its untimely death!

 

So now I find myself in complete limbo with how to actually run this program that I finally got to work, after all these twists and turns. This was the last of a total of 3 of the 410's I had, and the only one that was working until just now. I realize I'm in the minority here, but I kind of like the outdatedness and clunkiness of using tape still with the 600xl.  As far as I know though, it's still the same old story- that you can't just use any old tape recorder, it must be Atari-specific?  I remember seeing the list of compatible after market recorders, one was by GE, but it hasn't been easy to get any usable recorder in nice condition that could last awhile, and I can see why people put their money towards pursuing other avenues for data recording....but... I still like tape, and until I can find a viable recorder, this program is now just plain unusable. Unbelievable.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 23, 2023 by newTIboyRob

[TGB1718]

I see where your coming from, but I think you're realising how frail these mechanical devices are, even the tapes themselves

are prone to jamming, my wife still has 100's of tape she's recorded over many, many years, but every now and then we

will get a jam or a "chew", fortunately she has me to fix the tapes, but it does show these things are just getting a little past 

their best.

 

I think it's time to bite the bullet and get the minimal upgrades, I think you will find there's still a ton of fun to be had, just

a lot less pain.

 

[+Larry]

@newTIboyRob  You know, if money is truly an issue, there are folks here who would very likely donate surplus equipment to get you going (you may have to pay shipping).  Clearly, this project shows that you have perseverance.  Just think what awaits you with 64K and and an ATR-friendly device!  BTW, where are you located -- U.S. based, or?

[_The Doctor__]

All of those tape drives simply need TLC, new belts are in expensive. cleaning, lubing cost is practically nothing, torn wires should not occur ever, that sounds like the chew was not removed carefully or went unnoticed for quite a while somehow. With the cassette not rewind and such, you shouldn't have been running it as that indicates the belts are at issue.

Never having seen wire torn off in that manner before, I'd bet a soldering iron, some solder will remedy that situation handily as these are from the age of full sized components. All is not lost. Fix all 3 at once as it will cost the least per datasette that way.

Edited September 23, 2023 by _The Doctor__

[Forrest]

Source for Atari belts https://console5.com/store/parts/belts/atari.html

[ivop]

9 hours ago, newTIboyRob said:

I also couldn't figure out the formula to add all the numbers from cells B1 through B12; I only could do say 2 at at time and then total.  I was thinking it was something like a range SUM (B1, 12) or the like, as it wouldn't be all B1+B2... 12, because that wouldn't fit anyway.

One of my examples showed summing. It's done by specifying a range, like B1:B12.

 

9 hours ago, newTIboyRob said:

So just to finish the discussion on the program I typed and the program changes I had to make...   I spent like 1.5 hours again going over the program code, line by line, even with someone assisting me, and found 0 typos... checked every line, every character and with great detail. Why then, were the calculations not working???  Then I looked at the tape itself. By my past recording of music to cassettes, the WAV from CAS file was a longer dump... I would say more like 4 minutes, which is about double in time of what the CLOAD AND CSAVE were using with the type in program, with that being roughly 2 minutes and change. Not sure if it is the bit rate with the .WAV or related concept that made it take longer, or if it was additional data - maybe something was actually missing in my type in program somehow?- that made it take longer.

The extra length is garbage. I noticed it, too. It's in the cas file and hence ended up in the WAV file. When CLOAD stops, all of the program is loaded. The rest of the tape can be discarded.

 

Sorry to hear your that once you finally have it working, your tape drive acts up.

 

As for the arrow keys, remember you have to press control, too.

[newTIboyRob]

I just wanted to take a step back here and mention a few things. Kind of like a thread summary. If you go back to the very first page and my very first post and the reason for this thread in the first place, and read down page 1, it will explain a lot of what I was trying to do at the time, which was now 3 weeks ago. Keep in mind that a LOT has transpired since then and it turned out that the near future came sooner than expected. But then again, no one could have predicted just how soon and when that was actually going to be. It was just a matter of time, but it was a good long equipment run heretofore.

 

I had, and again, this was at-the-time, a perfectly working 410, which just last night went on me. So, at that time, I wasn't really considering the 64K RAM extension and SIO2USB cable route, nor even thinking that far ahead since I am not a gamer anymore and I also didn't see myself really needing or wanting anything else out of the glorified game console that is the 600 XL but to use what I already had: the Atariwriter cartridge, the 410, and then to find  its basic spreadsheet companion. Hence this long, long, long quest.  Why would someone spend money on something otherwise if they didn't really have to?  Get the spreadsheet, and call it a day was the only thought/desire.

 

Even then though, I listened to quite a few options, and now, based on what just happened last night, I think the best alternate suggestion I've come across is the one recommended in the middle of that first page by @MrFish    I actually did consider his suggestion at that time, as he knows, but I put it aside as I was still trying to get use out of my 410 which was working in the way I needed it to. FFW to now, and I am tending to think like I often do, as @TGB1718 does, in that much as I want to use tape, to find a recorder that is in great shape is just too tall of an order, (because eventually it is going to require repair even if ok at the time of purchase), and the cost of a newly refreshened 410, I mean, with a good solid motor/s, new belts, lube, the works... would cost somewhere in the price range of going the RAM upgrade and SIO2cable route anyway, (which is why most, if not all of you, were recommending I head in that direction in the first place, I know, I am/was aware of that even then), when I really didn't want to. Now that the critical and last remaining piece of related working gear I had just broke, it's pretty much that now I have to.

 

For me, it's been a sad and ironic twist of fate (enter violins) for me to have had to gone through all this with the a) needing to be translated program in the other thread, the b) non working type in program in this thread, and c) the cassette file which didn't work at first but then with much perseverance, did work.. all this and now, I can't even use it, well at least for the time being. But that has to change. The only thing I can think of here is that my journey will be a good blueprint to show someone who comes after me what truly lies ahead of them when you are dealing with antiquated and somewhat involved equipment.

 

So I guess I have to head in the technology direction, which will likely wind down this thread (maybe to relief of many!) since I need to explore the aforementioned now, and will likely have questions (hopefully not too many!) for future new tech-related posts. 

 

 

You've all been super helpful with this saga, especially all the names I usually thank (ivop, TGB, Fish, Doc)  and I sincerely thank you once again for all your guidance.

 

[chevymad]

I'm curious how the long lines are input. I tried the poke, but that still won't allow the full line to be input. I loaded the cassette file into altirra and the whole extra long line is shown. What's the trick? 

[+Stephen]

30 minutes ago, chevymad said:

I'm curious how the long lines are input. I tried the poke, but that still won't allow the full line to be input. I loaded the cassette file into altirra and the whole extra long line is shown. What's the trick? 

When typing, use abbreviations for the commands.  ? instead of PRINT, "GO." instead of GOTO, etc.

[+MrFish]

Something else that may not have been mentioned yet is using @dmsc's basicParser tool to optimize the program and save on RAM usage. It won't produce something that can be typed in, but it could be saved onto cassette, etc.

 

[newTIboyRob]

@MrFish ...  I am very close to making the SIO2Cable and 64K RAM expansion purchase, thanks to you. I just have a few things I want to make sure of before I take the plunge.  Should I post a few questions with basically yes or no answers here?

[newTIboyRob]

I looked into those abbreviations. There were still lines where even those wouldn't have helped it, so I divided the lines up.

Edited September 24, 2023 by newTIboyRob

[+MrFish]

34 minutes ago, newTIboyRob said:

I just have a few things I want to make sure of before I take the plunge.  Should I post a few questions with basically yes or no answers here?

Go ahead; but I'd open a new topic for it, rather than just tossing them into this topic; it might be more easy for someone else just starting out to find some useful information. Make sure to use the correct terminology too: the device you're talking about is an "SIO2PC USB" device.

 

[dmsc]

Hi @newTIboyRob!

 

About the long lines, those are because the program that you typed is not the "original" one, it is recovered from a version that was protected, with all the variable names erased. So, to un-protect it, the variables were replaced by V1 to V99, making some of the names bigger.

 

IMHO, that Basic spreadsheet program is not a good program to type in, it is big and slow, and not a very good learning experience 🙂 

 

Here is a better option: I ported B-CALC to work in 16K memory and load from a cassette, attached is the .CAS file and a binary image. You can test the .CAS file in an emulator and see it works - it would give you about 3k of free memory for your spreadsheet, see:

 

What I did was to assemble the code from the magazine to address $700 instead of $2000, and skipped the test for "D" device on SAVE and LOAD, so it works with "C:". Then, I compressed it to make loading shorter and converted to a bootable CAS file. The magazine article with the instructions is here: https://archive.org/details/analog-computing-magazine-63/page/n50/mode/2up

 

Sadly, the program is too large to convert to a BASIC tipe-in in 16K, as you would need the BASIC source plus the decoded binary in memory at the same time, and this is more than 16K for a 6k program like this. It would need to be typed in different sections and then appended together, a very difficult task without some disk drive.

 

And a simple recommendation - if you need some very inexpensive device to connect to your Atari, you can build a SIO2PC-USB using an usb to serial adapter, like this: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32273550144.html ... you will start to enjoy your Atari 🙂, like this: 

 

 

Have Fun!

 

bcalc-cassete.cas bcalc-cassete.bin

Edited September 24, 2023 by dmsc

[newTIboyRob]

 

2 hours ago, dmsc said:

About the long lines, those are because the program that you typed is not the "original" one, it is recovered from a version that was protected, with all the variable names erased. So, to un-protect it, the variables were replaced by V1 to V99, making some of the names bigger.

Aha, maybe that is why the long program I typed, sans typos, didn't work. Makes sense now. Something or things could very well have gotten "lost in the translation", literally. Thank you for that dmsc and for the magazine and your work above, I will refer back to it when I next get set up.  Regarding your recommendation though, I would still go the purchase route, as I see what you posted would involve soldering, which is not my strong suit.

 

Ok, Mr Fish, from your comment, it sounds like I shouldn't post them here so I won't.

[chevymad]

3 hours ago, Stephen said:

When typing, use abbreviations for the commands.  ? instead of PRINT, "GO." instead of GOTO, etc.

The lines that are too long though don't have any commands. They're just setting the variables. I'm not sure how you can cload the program, then list it and have lines that are too long to be entered. 

Edited September 24, 2023 by chevymad

[newTIboyRob]

How ironic too, as now BCalc, which was the original spreadsheet I was trying to have all along, was in fact able to be modified and ported after all was said and done to work within the 16k confines. And with cassette, no less.

Edited September 24, 2023 by newTIboyRob

[reifsnyderb]

To speed up any BASIC program, patching the OS with Fast Math for the floating point code and using Altirra BASIC will make a huge difference.  Both require EPROMs and a burner, unfortunately.  These two changes should result in exponential speed increases.  Altirra BASIC is much faster than Atari BASIC and adding the Fast Math roughly doubles the speed of math computations.

Edited September 24, 2023 by reifsnyderb

[_The Doctor__]

Almost any of the Other BASIC carts will make things faster, but the 16K limit is still tough even when using those carts. You certainly wouldn't get BASIC XE to do much.

TurboBASIC uses memory for itself, I am not certain that a 100 percent cartridge model TurboBASIC is around. If you are going to burn eproms for BASIC variant and FPU/OS you might as well do the dirt cheap RAM upgrade while you are in there.

[reifsnyderb]

16 minutes ago, _The Doctor__ said:

If you are going to burn eproms for BASIC variant and FPU/OS you might as well do the dirt cheap RAM upgrade while you are in there.

Maybe so, but adding the extra RAM takes the fun out of it.   😁

[+Larry]

11 hours ago, newTIboyRob said:

@MrFish ...  I am very close to making the SIO2Cable and 64K RAM expansion purchase, thanks to you. I just have a few things I want to make sure of before I take the plunge.  Should I post a few questions with basically yes or no answers here?

It's 2023, so this may not still be a problem, but be aware that some SIO2PC-USB cables/boards have (had?) bogus FTDI chips, and don't work or do not work correctly.  Lots of threads about these cables here at AA.   FWIW, I still think that the SIO2PC is the most flexible peripheral system ever created, and the lowest cost, too (assuming one has an old laptop, etc. to host its system).

[+Larry]

@dmsc

"About the long lines, those are because the program that you typed is not the "original" one, it is recovered from a version that was protected, with all the variable names erased. So, to un-protect it, the variables were replaced by V1 to V99, making some of the names bigger."

 

Could you explain how this works?  The only thing I can think of is that the original variables are still in the Variable Name Table, and the new ones were added, making it longer. (?)

[+MrFish]

4 hours ago, Larry said:

FWIW, I still think that the SIO2PC is the most flexible peripheral system ever created, and the lowest cost, too

It's good for cross-development work too, because the files you're working with on your PC can be instantly available on the Atari. Other devices require constant swapping of a CF or SD between your PC and whatever device you're using (SDrive, AVGCart, SIDE, etc.). It's basically like a network connection between your PC and your Atari. You can also use the same directories with Altirra and your Atari, giving you simultaneous access to your files with emulation (and all it's development benefits) and real hardware.

 

4 hours ago, Larry said:

(assuming one has an old laptop, etc. to host its system)

My host system is always my main PC. My Atari sits right next to that. So, I don't need any extra machine to use it.

 

[TGB1718]

5 hours ago, Larry said:

It's 2023, so this may not still be a problem, but be aware that some SIO2PC-USB cables/boards have (had?) bogus FTDI chips, and don't work or do not work correctly.  Lots of threads about these cables here at AA.   FWIW, I still think that the SIO2PC is the most flexible peripheral system ever created, and the lowest cost, too (assuming one has an old laptop, etc. to host its system).

I've had nothing but trouble with many different types of SIO2PC USB devices, they are just so flakey.

 

I have an original SIO2PC that I made in the 90's, that I used with an old laptop, then I thought what if I buy

a PCIE RS232 card for my PC, cost me about £10, works a treat, never any dropouts, I mainly use it to backup

my U1M/SIDE3 130XE and my 800's Incognito to my PC via PCLINK.