AtariAge + Atari Q&A

[leech]

7 hours ago, zzip said:

More like we're told how great the Jag could have been if only developers could figure out how to unlock the hidden power  

 

The system held promise, but had a weak games library.   You hit the nail on the head,  Tramiel Atari never spend enough on game development/marketing to be truly competitive.

One of the biggest issues Atari has always had (reaching back at least to the 8bit days) has been their less than friendly attitude toward 3rd party developers.  When the ST was released, they had a nice amount of people excited for it, so got a lot of software that was written there first, then ported to other systems... but that seemed to dwindle out after the Amiga became more available, and I think Commodore were more willing to give out documentation (or Amigas to code for in the case of the story with Bullfrog).  I think by the time the Jag came out, Atari had to go around and beg companies to develop for it, and they just kept bleeding the money.  It's weird architecture didn't help (same as the Saturn, which also has some really cool potential that I don't think ever was quite realized.)

[Shawn]

1 hour ago, roots.genoa said:

Not exactly. The Pokémon Company is its own thing, even though Nintendo has shares in it.

 

Agreed. It's a yes and no type deal for sure.

[Shawn]

2 hours ago, jgkspsx said:

I think it was 2010. I got a set! They’re really nice with a fun Mario theme.

 

They still make regular hanafuda sets too.

 

Wow. It's been that long already eh? Time sure flys!

[carlsson]

5 hours ago, Flojomojo said:

Meh, everyone has a price. Especially if they get to stay on and keep running it they way they like. 

While I know nothing about Atari's plans for the future, long or short term, I doubt obtaining yet more online communities, in particular those that has no common ground with the brand, is in their strategy. In that case, I would rather expect some medium sized retro gaming expo/market get a request for buying in with partial ownership or however those events are setup. Perhaps not PRGE but something one level smaller. But yes, that is just wild speculation.

[Nall3k]

@Albert I don't know if anyone really has anymore questions, probably could close the thread.

[Albert]

31 minutes ago, Nall3k said:

@Albert I don't know if anyone really has anymore questions, probably could close the thread.

I need to go through the entire thread (oh dear, over 56 pages at 25 posts per page) and add some of the questions and answers to the first post.  I am also going to create a 2600+ forum in the 2600 forum and start moving some threads into that, and likely will create a "Homebrew Compatibility" thread for the 2600+ that can be updated as homebrew games are tested (and obviously I can test AtariAge-related titles). 

 

 ..Al

[Crimson Cross]

20 minutes ago, Albert said:

I need to go through the entire thread (oh dear, over 56 pages at 25 posts per page) and add some of the questions and answers to the first post.  I am also going to create a 2600+ forum in the 2600 forum and start moving some threads in that, and likely will create a "Homebrew Compatibility" thread for the 2600+ that can be updated as homebrew games are tested (and obviously I can test AtariAge-related titles). 

 

 ..Al

Cool on all fronts and especially the compatibility list...

[+jgkspsx]

1 hour ago, Shawn said:

Agreed. It's a yes and no type deal for sure.

It is a fully separate company with its own management, headquarters, and staff. Nintendo co-owns it with Game Freak and Creatures Inc but it operates autonomously.

[TrogdarRobusto]

10 minutes ago, jgkspsx said:

It is a fully separate company with its own management, headquarters, and staff. Nintendo co-owns it with Game Freak and Creatures Inc but it operates autonomously.

I met with Pokémon a few times when I worked in Europe. Really interesting dynamic in that organization. It did feel like they were largely masters of their own domain, but something was also off a bit .. a little odd? Not sure how to describe it. Super successful brand however, so they are doing something right. 

[Kirkland]

On 9/11/2023 at 7:38 PM, Albert said:

No, I hate doing that.  They've been on the site like that for over 20 years, they've already been copied ad nauseam, why change that now?  And I'd love to replace many of the images with higher-resolution scans, and replace poor images with higher-quality images.

 

 ..Al

I'm plodding through scanning Atari 5200 manuals at 1200dpi before heading back to Atari 2600 manuals.  Any thoughts on hosting 3rd party titles (like Activision, Imagic, etc.)? Or will those remain just html/text files to remain "safe" due to the new ownership's legal department?

[Giles N]

2 hours ago, Albert said:

I am also going to create a 2600+ forum in the 2600 forum and start moving some threads into that, and likely will create a "Homebrew Compatibility" thread for the 2600+ that can be updated as homebrew games are tested (and obviously I can test AtariAge-related titles). 

Could you do the same for/with the 7800, it would’ve nice, thanks!

[Albert]

10 minutes ago, Giles N said:

Could you do the same for/with the 7800, it would’ve nice, thanks!

Yes, it would include 7800 games as well, no reason to have two lists. 

 

 ..Al

[Giles N]

27 minutes ago, Albert said:

it would include 7800 games as wel

👍🏻

[Wildstar]

On 9/7/2023 at 8:13 AM, CapitanClassic said:

Since the ROMs have been removed from the AtariAge database, I wonder how long the Harmony Cart page will be hosted by AtariAge.

 

The Atari 2600+ release makes sense now. Atari needs new hardware if they want the ability to sell new software. I don’t personally understand the homebrew market myself though, since my understanding is that selling 400+ copies of a game is a blockbuster hit. With those numbers, I don’t see how a company can make much money. And for the older original titles, your rereleases are competing with 120 Million loose used cartridges.

 

Here’s hoping Atari keeps preservation of the history of their games and company alive. Congrats Al, enjoy the sale of your site. Hope you got close to $1.5 million.  

 

 

Homegrown game development is a 'hobbyist' kind of thing. Traditionally, you don't do it for money in the sense that you don't strive or expect to earn a living.

 

Once you are developing games clearly as a commercial activity to pay yourself and others the wage/salary of typical commercial game development, then you are a commercial video game development business. This category has sub categories from indie/small game development studio (often startups) to the megasize corporate video game development studios.

 

If you are a smaller studio, you are probably better off with 2d type games. You are not going to want to make 3d games with small project teams. Especially when it comes to stuff even remotely like Starfield and other major studio releases. You can strive to make modern PC resolution 2d games version of a "Chrono Trigger" like game. Doable but time consuming. Not a weekend slapped together game. This type of commitment would be more than an average homebrew game.

 

Commercial video game requires serious commitment and advisable to get some crowdfunding or something along the line. I think Atari could contribute in whatever way they can to stimulate homebrew and commercial video game development for their systems. 

 

 

[Wildstar]

On 9/7/2023 at 9:25 AM, TrogdarRobusto said:

We took the emulation route, as I understand it, because it allowed us to do a few things:

1) get it out the door quicker
2) keep the price down
3) have a more stable supply chain
4) there are probably a few more reasons but that is what I am aware of

Will we someday make a 2600/7800 console that does not use emulation? I really don't know. Everyone loves the idea, not sure how practical it is. Time will tell. 

I can say that the emulation works and looks amazing. The first time you see an 8-bit game on an HD monitor, super crisp with vibrant colors, it is a bit disorienting. But you get used to it quick because it looks and plays amazing.

I don't know if all homebrew games work with the 2600+, we are keeping a compatibility list on our site. I would hazard a guess and say probably not? Will we work with the homebrew community to add compatibility ... where we can, 100%. This community has some very smart people in it, I bet you can help us figure it out.

I'll say this straightforward. The original Atari hardware IP are not going to be manufactured as they were. For one, original NMOS chips by MOS Technologies, Inc. are nearly impossible to be made now. The old foundry doesn't even exist anymore. Torn down, brownfield site. You need the same or compatible equipment and the photomasks. Those would likely have to be remade and re-engineered for contemporary foundry equipment on modern .35 micron and smaller die. Original chips were fabricated on 1 to 5 micron. Jaguar Era was on .35 micron to 1 micron. Most likely, hardware reimplementation of Atari's traditional hardware IP for the various chips would be in FPGA or ASIC form. This requires hardware engineers capable of making cycle exact or near perfect reimplementation which can be a highly challenging task. Software emulation of the old hardware is easier and easily fixed and patched. Technology has moved on so much. If someone wants to endeavor with making a FPGA reimplementation for the various custom chips in the old Atari consoles and computers, they could just do it. Besides, the patents expired a while back for most Atari hardware. Even the patents for the Jaguar had likely expired. They're good for like 20 years and they don't renew.

 

Atari SA most likely know this. What really made Atari was the content. Atari made custom hardware to support the games but it was the game and it's content. The games, and apps are what matters and the value of the IP of Atari or any console, computer, etc. 

 

There's a niche market for preserving the classic hardware and potential for FPGA based drop in replacement for original chips. This isn't something Atari SA would do themselves. They could help or otherwise not get in the way. This way the niche markets that support these legendary classics. There is no way for Atari to make the ROI for selling FPGA based drop in replacement. Most people who does this, they do so voluntarily while they may have a regular day job as a hardware engineer doing custom hardware for various embedded systems. The retro hardware stuff is hobby time. 

[Wildstar]

On 9/12/2023 at 2:42 PM, TrogdarRobusto said:

hah. I looked through the forum and there is no dedicated amiga thread, but it has been referenced quite a lot in this thread. 25 posts so far.

There are active dedicated sites for Commodore 8 bit and Amiga systems. We don't need to make dedicated sub forum thread for it. There is certainly a part of Atari's history that intersects with Commodore and Amiga ( relating to Jay Miner and the Lorraine project ). I have been around with these computers and the industry since the 1980s.

[Wildstar]

On 9/12/2023 at 3:06 PM, desiv said:

Yeah, I have Amiga OS 3.2 from Hyperion for my A1200...

That said I also use AmigaForever from time to time...  (Yes, I also use WinUAE...)
I just wish they could get along...  They both could have a place and work together...

 

As a fan of retro, I don't see a problem with regurgitating old stuff...

Buy out both Cloanto and Hyperion and those who currently owns the C= trademark and various IP

[Wildstar]

Seriously, regarding IP. IP is collateral for things like lines of credit, loans, etc. Things, corporations deals with on a day to day basis. If IP is not marketed and defended, those rights becomes unenforceable in court. This dilution of the rights is exactly what happed with Commodor and Amiga IP. Atari like Disney has to periodically re-release as well as take documented legal effort demonstrating due diligence. Intellectual Property rights is a responsibility. If Atari gave away the games for free, there will be no current economic value for them. In long run, like Disney, they have to make new content not just re-releases. 

 

Technically, if you don't own the copyrights, you do not have any legal distribution rights. All these download sites for game roms and disk images are technically engaged in copyright infringement. Technically, you can not legally make even backup copies unless permission was explicitly granted in written form. Even then, when you sell your copy, you must destroy the backup copies except one working copy and you must give it to whoever bought your original copy. You may not legally retain any copy of it on any media because you only paid for that game once. (Unless you bought multiple times the same game). That's the law. 

 

Atari SA owns various IP and has various licenses. This cost money. Atari needs to make new content. It can be 2d and 3d games. They could partner with devs and publish them. Atari brand and namesake does a lot in getting attention to new games made by less known devs. As a publisher, they can do a lot because of the brand recognition of this legacy brand. 

 

How will Atari help devs publish games? Steam and itch.io are distribution platforms but Atari can get games not only attention on these platforms but also in brick and mortar stores. Now, of course Atari can't just publishing every game without some quality control and encourage quality games. 

 

 

[Wildstar]

2 hours ago, Wildstar said:

Seriously, regarding IP. IP is collateral for things like lines of credit, loans, etc. Things, corporations deals with on a day to day basis. If IP is not marketed and defended, those rights becomes unenforceable in court. This dilution of the rights is exactly what happed with Commodor and Amiga IP. Atari like Disney has to periodically re-release as well as take documented legal effort demonstrating due diligence. Intellectual Property rights is a responsibility. If Atari gave away the games for free, there will be no current economic value for them. In long run, like Disney, they have to make new content not just re-releases. 

 

Technically, if you don't own the copyrights, you do not have any legal distribution rights. All these download sites for game roms and disk images are technically engaged in copyright infringement. Technically, you can not legally make even backup copies unless permission was explicitly granted in written form. Even then, when you sell your copy, you must destroy the backup copies except one working copy and you must give it to whoever bought your original copy. You may not legally retain any copy of it on any media because you only paid for that game once. (Unless you bought multiple times the same game). That's the law. 

 

Atari SA owns various IP and has various licenses. This cost money. Atari needs to make new content. It can be 2d and 3d games. They could partner with devs and publish them. Atari brand and namesake does a lot in getting attention to new games made by less known devs. As a publisher, they can do a lot because of the brand recognition of this legacy brand. 

 

How will Atari help devs publish games? Steam and itch.io are distribution platforms but Atari can get games not only attention on these platforms but also in brick and mortar stores. Now, of course Atari can't just publishing every game without some quality control and encourage quality games. 

 

 

Minor but important legal correction... "Technically, if you don't own the copyrights, you do not..." should read: "Technically, if you don't own the copyrights or possess an active and valid license by the copyright owner(s) , you do not..."

Edited September 14, 2023 by Wildstar

[CapitanClassic]

6 hours ago, Wildstar said:

Technically, you can not legally make even backup copies unless permission was explicitly granted in written form.

Another correction, you absolutely can make a backup copy, no permission needs to be explicitly granted, because it is implied.

 

USA copyright

It does say, “special conditions have been put in place by the copyright owner that might affect your ability or right under section 117 to make a backup copy,” so it might be possible to prevent a backup from being made, but you have it reversed. They have to explicitly forbid it in the license. (Not the other way around)

 

[+DrVenkman]

6 hours ago, Wildstar said:

Technically, if you don't own the copyrights, you do not have any legal distribution rights. All these download sites for game roms and disk images are technically engaged in copyright infringement. Technically, you can not legally make even backup copies unless permission was explicitly granted in written form. Even then, when you sell your copy, you must destroy the backup copies except one working copy and you must give it to whoever bought your original copy. You may not legally retain any copy of it on any media because you only paid for that game once. (Unless you bought multiple times the same game). That's the law

Please tell me you don’t have a law license in any jurisdiction. Because if you do, you might want to give it back. 

[AMenard]

4 hours ago, Wildstar said:

Minor but important legal correction... "Technically, if you don't own the copyrights, you do not..." should read: "Technically, if you don't own the copyrights or possess an active and valid license by the copyright owner(s) , you do not..."

It depends on where you live. Nobody here cares unless you're distributing. Heck, there are daily copy party at the National Library in Montreal if you go to the media floor. You see people with piles of CD and Bluray/DVD with laptops ripping away, and there are photocopy machine on each floor...

[Crazy Climber]

Is it time yet???

 

 

Too soon???

[zzip]

17 hours ago, leech said:

One of the biggest issues Atari has always had (reaching back at least to the 8bit days) has been their less than friendly attitude toward 3rd party developers.  When the ST was released, they had a nice amount of people excited for it, so got a lot of software that was written there first, then ported to other systems... but that seemed to dwindle out after the Amiga became more available, and I think Commodore were more willing to give out documentation (or Amigas to code for in the case of the story with Bullfrog).  I think by the time the Jag came out, Atari had to go around and beg companies to develop for it, and they just kept bleeding the money.  It's weird architecture didn't help (same as the Saturn, which also has some really cool potential that I don't think ever was quite realized.)

Yeah ST also had a bunch of companies producing development tools so anybody with a standard ST could get started developing games, didn't need Atari knocking at your door to beg you to port something.    For consoles you need to obtain a dev system.   Jaguar had a Falcon-based dev system that by all accounts didn't work very well and had documentation that was problematic.   So for a developer, developing games for it was a headache, for an audience that wasn't guaranteed to materialize, add in the Tramiels tendancy to burn bridges, it's not surprising they'd have trouble attracting developers to an unproven and complicated system.

[roadrunner]

On 9/13/2023 at 10:22 AM, www.atarimania.com said:

Yes, tons of them on the Commodore 64 as well. 

 

Your definition of a release may be different. To us, a game made with Pinball Construction Set / Boulder Dash Construction Kit and distributed in the public domain is still an original creation so it counts as a single program.

Has Atari tried to buy your site yet?
It will be a sad day to see all the roms removed.