can someone point me to the least expensive, yet still legit, SIO2PC device?

[newTIboyRob]

11 hours ago, BillC said:

You have already posted that you want your Atari/PC to be in different locations, an SIO2PC device is not compatible with this configuration.

To have them in different locations you will require a drive emulator with local storage(SD/CF card, many devices) or WIFI/network connection(Fujinet).

An alternative is to acquire an older/inexpensive computer/laptop that could be used with AspeQT and an SIO2PC in the same location as the 600XL.

So from the above, the gist is:  the SIO2PC device is out for me due to location logistics, and the middle sentence referring to  "drive emulator with local storage" a good example  of that would be the SDrive Max, yes?

[tuf]

4 minutes ago, newTIboyRob said:

So from the above, the gist is:  the SIO2PC device is out for me due to location logistics, and the middle sentence referring to  "drive emulator with local storage" a good example  of that would be the SDrive Max, yes?

 

You need to bite the bullet and get the SDrive (or the SIO2SD that Lotharek sells, same thing essentially) and the 600XL RAM expander.  Everything else will be more complex and unnecessary.

1. Order a $30 64k upgrade for the 600XL: https://www.ebay.com/itm/275980989691
2. Order the S-Drive from The Brewing Academy (or the guy here who offered) for $70
3. Enjoy

 

[newTIboyRob]

Over the weekend, I also had emailed an Ebay hand crafter of an SIO2PC USB Interface who was kind enough to answer, but I received his reply just tonight. Somehow the way he answered made me back up and myself try to understand the theory of just what the differences between the SIO2PC USB interface and the SDrive Max are. I think I never absorbed something really key here: the SIO2PC USB is called an interface, something vital to my understanding.

 

The SIO2PC USB interface is that and just that only, an interface, it's not a file storage unit like the SDRIVE max is. He went on to distinguish that The PC stores all the image files... then I put that together with my situation of since I need location portability, and from the above quoted post of BillC, it really looks like the SIO2PC USB interface, though I wanted it to be, is really NOT my best bet here, then, is it?  So based on things thus far, it still keeps pointing to the SDrive Max. 

 

I'm sorry to some of you that it may seem I keep pounding the same drum, but this is the equivalent of trying to explain AI to a 90 year old man. Luckily, I am not the latter. To be fair, at first, I still say this can be all be a little confusing. I mean that interface had a chip in it, so, naturally I thought it was a storage chip for files when really it wasn't, it was just electronics for communication with a PC. Compounding matters is that he mentioned that you could load programs from cassette and copy to ATR or CAS image, which that interface could do.  (He also mentioned that the SIO2PC USB interface didn't necessarily require additional memory I've been speaking of, technically, but I then thought it practical terms it would have given me more memory headroom, which was why I had been putting it together with that SIO2PC USB interface as a combination choice.)

 

But the bottom line is: due to my dual locations, I actually still would need a device that will both download AND store the files, AND that can be moved from place to place, thus I am really talking about the SDrive Max here and NOT the SIO2PC USB interface, in light of my particular case.

 

I hope that what I learned from the Ebay email and from Bill C is putting it more into focus for me now as I am trying to understand the theory behind all this... did I get it correct above?
 

Edited September 26, 2023 by newTIboyRob

[newTIboyRob]

Tuf... while I was typing, you had made your last post, thank you.

[newTIboyRob]

From past experience, is the cost to do an inner 64K RAM expansion around the same $30 cost as just buying the 64K plug in external expansion piece provided in the Ebay link from tuf above or is it likely to be more or less?

Edited September 26, 2023 by newTIboyRob

[+slx]

4 hours ago, newTIboyRob said:

From past experience, is the cost to do an inner 64K RAM expansion around the same $30 cost as just buying the 64K plug in external expansion piece provided in the Ebay link from tuf above or is it likely to be more or less?

The required hardware for a simple internal expansion is cheaper (e.g. the kit listed here, maybe even cheaper if you buy all the parts individually and get instructions on the web). But unless you’re equipped and qualified to install it yourself or have it installed for a beer at a local meeting, shipping the machine out and back will be way more expensive than the external expansion, the only drawback of which is the lack of a case (which can probably be 3D printed). 

 

If you decide to expand the machine's RAM internally and send it somewhere it probably makes more sense to splurge on a 320K or 576K expansion like this (which is not that much more expensive) to make the machine compatible with newer home-brew games. More RAM might also be nice to use as a Ramdisk if you plan to program on the machine. (AFAIK there's also a spreadsheet that makes use of at least 128K RAM which would be quite an expansion from your cassette based spreadsheet. 😆)

 

As virtually all programs sold during the machine's commercial lifetime will run on 64K the simple board linked above should satisfy your needs via plug-and-play if it's mostly the 1980s Atari feeling you're after.

 

 

Edited September 26, 2023 by slx
added information

[bfollowell]

On 9/24/2023 at 2:06 PM, Geister said:

The Fujinet is an SIO device that lets you connect wirelessly to internet archives of ATARI software and download them directly to the Atari.

SD Max is an SD card based SIO device that lets you load Atari software to an SD card and load it as if on a local drive.

While technically true, this statement is still not 100% accurate. Your statement makes it sound like the SDrive-Max uses SD cards and the FujiNet doesn't, but that isn't true. The both use SD cards, but only the FujiNet can access files stored on a computer wirelessly, or can access files across the Internet. In basic form, they are both disk/cassette drive emulators. The FujiNet just does much more as far as emulating other devices such as modems, printers, etc.

 

[bfollowell]

6 hours ago, newTIboyRob said:

From past experience, is the cost to do an inner 64K RAM expansion around the same $30 cost as just buying the 64K plug in external expansion piece provided in the Ebay link from tuf above or is it likely to be more or less?

I would think you should be able to do the internal RAM upgrade for about $10, assuming you were comfortable opening your machine and soldering a couple of wires. If not, you'd need to find someone to do it for you. Since it sounds like this is outside of your comfort zone, you would probably be better off spending the extra $20 to get the external plug-in RAM upgrade.

 

[BillC]

10 hours ago, newTIboyRob said:

a good example  of that would be the SDrive Max

or the Sdrive/SIO2SD/SIO2USB/Side2/Side3/Fujinet. The Sdrive Max became a popular choice because it has a touch screen display which allows selection of the desired ATR, and also supports protected ATX images.

[Beeblebrox]

Just to add upgrading the 600xl internally is around £5, ($10?) worth of chips and some wire. 

 

In the UK I spend £9 on 4 x chips here as this seller sells them in fours:

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/225089380047?var=523982652256

 

The upgrade is so easy as the 600xl is already socketed. 

 

I do the version here which is very ready to do. Takes less that 30mins for someone with even entry level soldering skills. 

 

I've done this with every 600XL I've owned, along with the chroma hook up mod to get svideo working. 

 

• These are the common ICs involved in the various upgrades methods detailed on AA (annotated in green) (ignore the red box around u18 btw - couldn't be bothered to edit it out 😞

 

I opted for this version of the 64K upgrade after lots of advice from TF_HH

 

1. Remove the chip U18 (74S32) and insert jumper between holes on pins 8 and 10 *.

2. Remove chips U5 and U6 ( 74LS158 ) . Bend the pins : pin 3 of U5 , U6 to the pin 10. Insert chips back into place so that the bent pins do not come in contact with anything .

3. Connect pin 3 of the U5 to A14(PB pin 18) and pin 10 of the U6 to A15 (PB pin 20).

 

4. Replace Dram chips U11 and U12 with the new Dram chips.

 

*I saw the method where you remove U18  (74LS32) chip completely and just bridge the points 10 and 8 using a wire. 

See here

 

I bridged 10 and 8 points but instead of the jumper wire as illustrated above in the socket, I opted for soldering the pins underside of pcb. This made sense to me and I was advised that jumpering using a wire is precarious.

 

The jumpering of the 2 x wires U5 (pin/leg 3) and U6 (pin/leg 10) going to these points on the PCB which are some of the viable pick up points for A14 (leading to parallel bus pin 18) and A15 (leading to parallel bus pin 20):

See here

 

Once done, this incrediblly cheap method of upgrading brings your 600xl in line with the 64k 800xl, and opens up a world of Atari software which usually means at least 32k and above. 

 

I personally have 64k as a minimum for all my A8's.

 

 

 

Edited September 26, 2023 by Beeblebrox

[Tillek]

https://www.ebay.com/itm/394571591984

 

$10 worth of chips and some wire... and some instructions.

 

Edited September 26, 2023 by Tillek

[+Stephen]

12 hours ago, newTIboyRob said:

From past experience, is the cost to do an inner 64K RAM expansion around the same $30 cost as just buying the 64K plug in external expansion piece provided in the Ebay link from tuf above or is it likely to be more or less?

If you can't find anyone local to you, I am in Ohio and can do the upgrade for you.  The only issue will be, as mentioned, cost of shipping.  Feel free to PM me if interested.

[newTIboyRob]

@Stephen  , thank you, very nice of you to offer that. But, should I have to take the expansion route after all, by the time I would ship it there and back, plus your doing the internal upgrade, that all would still be about the $30 cost of just buying the external RAM piece, plugging in and going... but a very nice gesture nevertheless.

[pirx]

possibly the cheapest and still good drive emulator: https://allegro.pl/oferta/atari-sdrive-micro-rev-2-0-10511691306

[newTIboyRob]

So each day I learn more, and I am definitely just about ready to buy the SDrive Max.  Let's leave the 64 K internal mod or external RAM cartridge discussion aside for a minute and focus on the SDrive Max now. I watched the video below, and surprisingly to me, I followed it most of the way. Maybe there's hope for me yet.  But what I still don't seem to be getting: how DOS and BASIC and the need for extra RAM come into play:

 

 

Keep in mind I've never used DOS before as I've never had a disk drive, I am just used to the blue screen Atari Basic typical for when you first turn on the Atari 600 XL. That's all I've ever used for programming and saving programs in basic to the 410.

 

You'll note how at 2:32 in, he clicked on D1 to select an image, selected MYDOS 3.08a.atr which he had already had stored in the Max, clicked ok, thus assigning that image to d1, and booted the Atari 800 up to that image. That part amazingly I get. At 3:03, he's got the blue screen Basic XL Version 1.02 and the Ready prompt up, but he doesn't actually get into DOS until he types that word and gets into it.

 

So my 2 questions:

 

1) When I get the Max, will I also need to have assigned this MYDOS file (say to D1) the way he does in order to type in new BASIC programs and save them, or even to retrieve tape files of homemade tapes I eventually will want to call up?  In other words, now will I have to use a DOS file to be able to do the type of simple programming in basic I was used to, which was straight from the boot to Atari Basic?  Again, that's the only way I know how. 

 

2) If indeed I now must use that DOS file just to even get to that Basic XL Version 1.02 screen above, is this needing to use this DOS file the reason I need this extra 64K Ram expansion?  Meaning, it's sort of like a chain reaction: you now need the DOS file to do your programs in basic (you no longer can do them the way you were used to), DOS eats up RAM, thus you need the 64K RAM extension for headroom, that kind of thinking?

 

When I added the cost of the SDrive, the Micro SD card and external power I must get... if I can also avoid this $43 extra RAM cost (tax and shipping included) I would love to, but not if it means I really couldn't use the Max in the way I want/intend to, in which case I must do the expansion. 

 

Though I have cleared many many hurdles, I still just can't seem to get it clear in my mind as to how or why I would need this extra RAM we've been discussing, if all I want to do is access simple basic tape programs from the Max and type in and save some new basic programs?  If I put even 15 total files in it that would amaze me, despite the massive arsenal of Atari software soon to be at my disposal. We're talking some basic programs, the modded BCalc from my other post, and how ever many basic programs I do. As fun as they are, I wouldn't be loading Frogger and the like in there.  Keep in mind also that I have an 800XL soon to be repaired, thus there is much more power inherently in that one, so perhaps I can still "get away" with avoiding the expansion on the 600xl, the expansion which would render it the 800 XL's equivalent anyway.  

 

It's heretofore been recommended that I need both Sdrive and expansion. But perhaps someone (other than TGB who I have probably worn out by this point!) can dissect and answer those 2 questions so as to separate these concepts, and phrase it in a very simple way, so it will click in my mind: the SDrive's relation to DOS, BASIC, and the need or not need for Expansion based on my intended streamlined usage mentioned above. 

 

 

Edited September 28, 2023 by newTIboyRob

[TGB1718]

Have answered most of your concerns in a PM to you.

Just one point, you don't need to go to DOS for anything your trying to do, almost everything can

be done from BASIC.

 

Maybe the only thing you would go to DOS for is to get a disk directory if you forgot the names of your saved files.

(and even that can be done with a simple BASIC program you could load and run)

[invisible kid]

Is there a minimal basic program already common that just simply lists the files? Right now I use the Antic Magazine Menu program, but it is a little much to just list the directory as it formats the output and allows you to choose a program to run, I would just like it to list the files.

[TGB1718]

18 minutes ago, invisible kid said:

I would just like it to list the files.

This should do it, don't forget to put the D : else nothing happens

 

32000 DIM B$(40),A$(40)
32010 ? "ENTER FILESPEC:- "
32015 REM CAN USE WILDCARDS
32016 REM LIKE D:*.BAS
32020 CLOSE #3:INPUT B$
32030 TRAP 32060
32040 OPEN #3,6,128,B$
32050 INPUT #3,A$:PRINT A$:GOTO 32050
32060 CLOSE #3
32070 END

 

With a small change, it can default to *.BAS by just pressing RETRUN

 

32000 DIM B$(40),A$(40):A$="D:*.BAS"
32010 ? "ENTER FILESPEC:- "
32015 REM CAN USE WILDCARDS
32016 REM LIKE D:*.BAS
32020 CLOSE #3:INPUT B$
32021 IF B$="" THEN B$=A$
32030 TRAP 32060
32040 OPEN #3,6,128,B$
32050 INPUT #3,A$:PRINT A$:GOTO 32050
32060 CLOSE #3
32070 END

[invisible kid]

Perfect! Thanks. I modified it to be even more simple and will just list all files, thanks!

 

32000 DIM A$(40)

32010 CLOSE #3

32020 TRAP 32050

32030 OPEN #3,6,128,"D:*.*"

32040 INPUT #3,A$:PRINT A$:GOTO 32040

32050 CLOSE #3

32060 END

 

Edited September 28, 2023 by invisible kid

[+Larry]

So the SDrive Max can R/W to ATRs, but Read Only for CAS files? 

I hadn't seen that video before. Sorry he is no longer doing business.

[bfollowell]

11 minutes ago, Larry said:

So the SDrive Max can R/W to ATRs, but Read only for CAS files? 

I hadn't seen that video before. Sorry he is no longer doing business.

Yes, Gavin is one of the best!

 

He had some personal issues come up and had to step away from the Atari scene for a while. Let's hope he gets to come back some day soon, in  one form or another. If not, I know we all wish him well and I thank him for the many excellent products he sold me over the past few years.

 

[TGB1718]

28 minutes ago, Larry said:

So the SDrive Max can R/W to ATRs, but Read only for CAS files? 

Yes, that's correct, there is no Tape control on the S-Drive other than select the .CAS file and START

 

There is no facility to RECORD/REWIND etc.

Edited September 28, 2023 by TGB1718

[HiassofT]

You won't need a DOS if you just want to "CLOAD" a CAS file stored on SDrive/SIO2PC/... But note that "CSAVE" won't work - this has to do with the way the Atari accesses tapes (it outputs FSK signals, not normal serial data, and SDrive et al can't cope with that).

 

As soon as you want to load or save a file from/to a disk (image) - i.e. LOAD "D1:MYPROG.BAS" or SAVE "D1:FOOBAR.BAS" you need to have a DOS loaded - which needs memory.

 

You only need to bring up the DOS menu  (which is usually a separate file stored on the disk, loaded when you want to bring up, needing even more memory) when you want to eg format a disk, delete or copy files etc in a convenient way. You can perform some operations without the menu, by using cryptic XIO commands, but you still needs to have DOS loaded (as this is what provides those functions and access to D:).

 

so long,

 

Hias

[+Larry]

So if you are happy with the limitations of 16K, you're good.  If you want to save a program, you will need a Dos of some type.  Some of the very early versions of MyDos 3.07, 3.08,  etc. are pretty small.  But once any Dos is loaded, you will have little memory left for BASIC programs.  Lite Dos might be OK for your particular needs.  It's free, so you can try it.  In the early days of 8K and 16K systems (and I'm talking about 1980 and 1981 -- 800s and of course 400s), people used all kinds of tricks to make every byte count.  There is an APX program called MASHER that compressed BASIC programs.  But that all ended pretty quickly as ram prices fell and 32K and 48K systems became very common.  You'll make a great leap forward by getting the SDrive, and you can wait and see if you are satisfied with 16K before getting a ram upgrade.

[dmsc]

Hi!

4 hours ago, Larry said:

So if you are happy with the limitations of 16K, you're good.  If you want to save a program, you will need a Dos of some type.  Some of the very early versions of MyDos 3.07, 3.08,  etc. are pretty small.  But once any Dos is loaded, you will have little memory left for BASIC programs.  Lite Dos might be OK for your particular needs.  It's free, so you can try it.  In the early days of 8K and 16K systems (and I'm talking about 1980 and 1981 -- 800s and of course 400s), people used all kinds of tricks to make every byte count.  There is an APX program called MASHER that compressed BASIC programs.  But that all ended pretty quickly as ram prices fell and 32K and 48K systems became very common.  You'll make a great leap forward by getting the SDrive, and you can wait and see if you are satisfied with 16K before getting a ram upgrade.

I strongly recommend using BW-DOS, as it is small and does not need the resident menu (DUP), so it will work better with little memory.

Attached is my current devel version, at load it gives you 7554 bytes of free memory, or 7.2k from basic.

 

Have Fun!

 

bwdos.atr