Which matters more to you as a classic game player - graphics or playability?

[Video]

Playability for sure, don't get me wrong, graphics are nice, but playability is a must. It doesn't matter if a game looks great if its unplayable. I'm probably a bit biased, so are many people here, as many of us got our start on 2600 (or earlier) when systems weren't really capable of good graphics, but the original programmers made great fun playable games despite not knowing how, or being unable to make them look better.

[Giles N]

12 hours ago, MrTrust said:

Amiga for the first time.  2010 or so.  Oh, man, when I was a kid, seeing the ads for those games... that stuff was out of this world. And now I have one with a bunch of games, so I can go back and see all the awesome stuff I missed...

 

Turns out what I was missing was mostly frustration.  Everything looked great on that system, but maaaaaan, so many of the games were janky and broken, either by the controls or just the ridiculous level design/balance.

The Amiga was like the C64: the system that everyone made a version of everything for and invented some new stuff in addition.

 

I had the Amiga from 1989-1994(?).

Me and my brother actually completed 2 homebrews on it, which we never published to others, and it was great fun to make graphics for it.

My brother must have composed like 25-30 tracks to be used for … some future project…

 

As to games… some where unnecessary bad, just ‘why the heck did they screw them up, when they so easily could’ve … dropped, skipped, reduced, or given production more time etc. 

Too many really cool titles were just screwed up by sloppy production, due to stuff like ‘get it released before this or that season’.

 

However, the Amiga also saw some absolutely brilliant novel games, Turrican 1-3, Lotus 1-3, Shadow of the beast 1, perhaps 2 (even though this is the sort of game where the question of gameplay vs graphics come in - please don’t complain about sound in either of these).

Elite did some brilliant ports, just way too late: Ghost n Goblins, Space Harrier, Commando, Paperboy.

 

Amiga was like the C64 - it ended up having a super-massive library containing everything from ultra-cool Arcade ports (another example: Super Hang On) to dreadful, junk-designs by demo-people wanting to stuff a cool visual or neat scrolling or whatever into a game while being clueless to proper game-design build-up.

Edited October 9, 2023 by Giles N

[+GoldLeader]

Oooh,

 

I got another one!

 

Best Graphics in the arcade in 1983:  DRAGON'S LAIR

 

Best Gameplay in the arcade in 1983:  NOT Dragon's Lair

[Giles N]

28 minutes ago, GoldLeader said:

Oooh,

 

I got another one!

 

Best Graphics in the arcade in 1983:  DRAGON'S LAIR

 

Best Gameplay in the arcade in 1983:  NOT Dragon's Lair

gameplay is…
As bad as_ …

Hit or … _hit 
 

Ok, on a more serious note…

… no… forget it… 

Edited October 9, 2023 by Giles N

[Giles N]

21 hours ago, GoldLeader said:

Across various systems, there's plenty of odd exceptions where I might wish for better gameplay, but still really have a soft spot for a game based mainly on graphics and music.

So many C64 and Amiga games where so much about great music.

Bionic Commando looked often so pixelated one could hardly make out what the sprites were supposed to resemble… but the music… oh-man…!!

Black Lamp - awful gameplay, music was so good, you just had to try it a couple of times now and then.

Beyond the Ice Palace. Not bad. Just super-generic and short, but music was taking players straight to phantasy-land…

And the list to go on and on… C64 had a chiptune sound that became legendary. It is welldeserved.

 

Amiga had tons of wierd games, with semi-akward or not-perfect gameplay, which still was actually worth playing just to experience graphics, sound and all… ‘Unreal’ being a great example.

[BIGHMW]

22 hours ago, GoldLeader said:

 

Well Gameplay is King so it's no surprise that's what people (myself included) would pick. 

 

Across various systems, there's plenty of odd exceptions where I might wish for better gameplay, but still really have a soft spot for a game based mainly on graphics and music.  For example, Cool World for SNES is not a very playable game,  but I like the look of it;  especially the buildings with faces that move and show emotions or the backgrounds,  like places I want to go that are far off in the distance for some reason, or certain colorful levels like a cartoon candy land,  and the music is amazing to me!  It's very odd and a wonderful kind of strange that very few people like.  (Though I do wish it played better!)

 

Back to playability and graphics,  sometimes you Do get Both.  DARK CAVERN!  Brilliant Gameplay!  Perfect graphics as far as I'm concerned.  Best of all worlds!

^Sometimes you really can have it all!!!

Agreed on Dark Cavern. I found out about it on a YouTube video and found it in my massive archive of ROMs I have over several different platforms I have downloaded and decided to try her on my Flashback 9, absolutely great of a blend of both worlds, and by far one of M-Network's best 2600 translations of their Intellivision classics alongside their 2600 version of Tron - Deadly Discs, far better than Lock 'n' Chase (since one-up'ed by @RaymanC's Lucky Chase) or Burgertime (since one-up'ed by @splendidnut's Chaotic Grill).

[+bent_pin]

7 minutes ago, BIGHMW said:

Agreed on Dark Cavern. I found out about it on a YouTube video and found it in my massive archive of ROMs I have over several different platforms I have downloaded and decided to try her on my Flashback 9, absolutely great of a blend of both worlds, and by far one of M-Network's best 2600 translations of their Intellivision classics alongside their 2600 version of Tron - Deadly Discs, far better than Lock 'n' Chase (since one-up'ed by @RaymanC's Lucky Chase) or Burgertime (since one-up'ed by @splendidnut's Chaotic Grill).

Was Dark Cavern on other platforms other than the 2600?

[+GoldLeader]

1 hour ago, bent_pin said:

Was Dark Cavern on other platforms other than the 2600?

 

Dark Cavern is presumably based on Night Stalker for the Intellivision.  Now,  here's the thing;  I never had an Intellivision growing up,  so even though the fine Intellivisionaries right around here have shown me I'm probably missing out on some classics and I know they hold the game in high regard,   I'll be honest;  I don't get it.  Dark Cavern is Perfect!!  So trying out Night Stalker on various comps for PlayStation or Nintendo DS (?) or Evercade...Well it never made an ounce of sense.  Seemed like an unplayable mess.  Now some Intelivision fans can feel free to correct me and whap me upside my head if I'm wrong,  but I figured I was missing out on something.  Remembering how many people don't get Dark Cavern because they never read the manual,  I decided to try that.  And again I could be wrong but what I missed seems to be that in Night Stalker,  you can't Move and Shoot at the same time!   You have to stop every time you want to shoot...(WHaaaaa?)   Again please correct me if I'm wrong but that seems like a game breaking play mechanic for a maze game with robots.  I'm a big Berzerk fan and an even bigger Frenzy fan so I wouldn't put up with crappy gameplay like that (if you can even call it that).

 

But Fear Not!  Dark Cavern exists and so does a Homebrew for 7800 called Dungeon Stalker,  which takes the Night Stalker formula and goes medieval with it,  except it's very playable because you can move and shoot to your heart's content.  Honestly It's a ripper of a game and highly recommended,  however you do constantly have to keep scrounging ammo (like in Night Stalker) and it comes up as arrows instead of Bullets or LASERS or whatever is in Night Stalker, and it comes up in random amounts of less than 10...Dark Cavern fixes all that because you can scavenge as much ammo as you want (up to 99 bullets) if you can wander the maze long enough without getting killed, and then you can start your war on your terms!

[LatchKeyKid]

Graphics are what initially draws (pun intended) most players to a game initially but gameplay is what keeps them there.   That said... if you're a classic games player in 2023 (especially for 8 bit era) then playability likely takes precedence as you're by definition more forgiving in the graphics department due to the technical limitations of the era.

[Giles N]

20 minutes ago, LatchKeyKid said:

That said... if you're a classic games player in 2023 (especially for 8 bit era) then playability likely takes precedence

Yeah, and btw - the question was about which of the 2 was most important.

One could mske a case that with zero graphics (no pixels on the screen to interact with), you cannot even have gameplay.

By that standard, graphics is equally core to what constitutes a video-game.

But if the question is which one gets number one of good gameplay or good graphics, I think good gameplay is more core.

[Video]

Maybe I misunderstood, I took graphics to mean GOOD graphics. Yeah no graphics at all would be an issue.

 

Look at early 2600, so many games have barebones ugly graphics, space invaders, asteroids, pacman, heck, adventure, you're literally a square. All those could be better, even on 2600, but I've never played them for graphics, it was always gameplay, and these games are all spot on, even when people hate on them (pacman gets lots of hate) its always issues with the graphics. "Its not vector, there's only 6 rows of aliens, you fight ducks?!" Very few ever cite game play / playability as a reason they don't like it for whatever reason.

 

People want better graphics for sure, and I get that, graphics rule! But if it wasn't for playability, I doubt people would care about graphics.

[+GoldLeader]

Here's what's funny though;  Let's say I had 2 choices:  A new homebrew take on ADVENTURE on 2600 with new mazes, different colors and scenery,  different castles and rooms, new objects, etc.,  OR   A Brand New PS5 game where you explore an alien planet and it all looks perfectly real!

 

Which would I choose?

 

For ME,  not necessarily a normal person:

 

NO WAY!   A NEW ADVENTURE??!!!!  WOOHOO!  I CAN'T WAIT!!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

PS:  Not that I wouldn't also enjoy the other one,...I'd just be More Stoked on the Atari game!

[+Spriggy]

On 10/8/2023 at 9:57 AM, Flojomojo said:

Can’t play graphics. Gameplay all the way. But it’s nice when good graphics come along too. 

As has been reiterated here ... Atari 2600 is the true example of bad graphics (compared to now, including other 80's consoles which had far better gfx) but gr8 gameplay  (shovelware aside).  "Easy to learn, hard to master".

23 hours ago, GoldLeader said:

Dark Cavern is presumably based on Night Stalker for the Intellivision. 

 

Gr8 game on the ole 2600.  In case your bloody interested, the PAL version of DC was released by Telegames in Europe and Oz under the name 'Night Stalker' in '89.

http://www.atarimania.com/game-atari-2600-vcs-night-stalker_7808.html

[+GoldLeader]

9 minutes ago, Spriggy said:

As has been reiterated here ... Atari 2600 is the true example of bad graphics (compared to now, including other 80's consoles which had far better gfx) but gr8 gameplay  (shovelware aside).  "Easy to learn, hard to master".

Gr8 game on the ole 2600.  In case your bloody interested, the PAL version of DC was released by Telegames in Europe and Oz under the name 'Night Stalker' in '89.

http://www.atarimania.com/game-atari-2600-vcs-night-stalker_7808.html

 

Crazy!!

 

I honestly had no idea!

 

Next you'll probably tell me the score and bullet counters are in different spots or something...

 

 

 

PS:  I may have to try the PAL ROM to see what it does (or see if I have a 'corrected' one that will play) 

[+Spriggy]

1 minute ago, GoldLeader said:

 

Crazy!!

 

I honestly had no idea!

 

Next you'll probably tell me the score and bullet counters are in different spots or something...

Is that sarcasm I here beloved Goldy? 

[+GoldLeader]

1 minute ago, Spriggy said:

Is that sarcasm I here beloved Goldy? 

 

Sarcasm?  Me?   Perish the thought.

 

[+Spriggy]

@GoldLeaderI wouldn't have it any other way you skinny bastard!   More of it as far as I'm concerned in this day and age of ........ you know what!

 

 

 

 

 

[Flyindrew]

As someone who grew up in the golden age of arcades, I enjoy playing as many arcade ports on as many different systems as possible. Its cool to see what the programmers of that era were trying to accomplish as well as assess the strengths/weaknesses of each game and system. I personally take in this historical context while playing games on their original hardware.

[BIGHMW]

You know SOMETIMES, PAL versions of games when played on NTSC machines can be kind of a mixed bag. For example when I first played the Atari 8-bit version of Yars' Revenge called "Yar's Strike" that Lennart Bown @Thelen did back in 2009 that called for me to advocate for a 5200 conversion of years ago, it looked an ugly green on my NTSC XEGS as opposed to the proper color which is a reddish-orange, in which it was, it's just that I did not know at that time that it was programmed on a PAL machine.

 

Several years later Lennart Bown DID grace us Stateside gamers with a color-correct NTSC doing of his classic game, it's actually a dual-unit program, one that detects what unit it's being run on and picks the right one (either PAL or NTSC)

 

I'll give the PAL Night Stalker a go on my NTSC 2600 and see how she plays and looks. Who knows how many color hacks we can do to her afterwards, that's up to you!!!

[+GoldLeader]

@Spriggy  @BIGHMW

 

Howdy my bruthas!

 

FWIW,  I looked and I Do have the PAL ROM of Dark Cavern called Night Stalker - Telegames...So I popped in the ol Harmony cart and fired up my 7800.  It plays,  give or take a few black frames (video drops) every so often and it is in black and white!

 

So it looks like this:

 

 

When I am more used to seeing it look like this (This is Dark Cavern on my old TV):

 

 

UPDATE:  The more I played it,  the more frequent the screen drops became.  So once the screen is filled with robots, it absolutely becomes unplayable.  Oh well,  **sigh**  (This is S-Video going through a Retro Tink 2X Pro,  which does have problems for a tiny, select few games anyway (Mainly Empire Strikes Back has video drops)...I wonder if there will be problems when I get a RetroTink 5X Pro?)

 

 

Sorry for the quick derail,

 

Now back to your regularly scheduled program.

 

 

[+bent_pin]

31 minutes ago, GoldLeader said:

@Spriggy  @BIGHMW

 

Howdy my bruthas!

 

FWIW,  I looked and I Do have the PAL ROM of Dark Cavern called Night Stalker - Telegames...So I popped in the ol Harmony cart and fired up my 7800.  It plays,  give or take a few black frames (video drops) every so often and it is in black and white!

 

So it looks like this:

 

 

When I am more used to seeing it look like this (This is Dark Cavern on my old TV):

 

 

UPDATE:  The more I played it,  the more frequent the screen drops became.  So once the screen is filled with robots, it absolutely becomes unplayable.  Oh well,  **sigh**  (This is S-Video going through a Retro Tink 2X Pro,  which does have problems for a tiny, select few games anyway (Mainly Empire Strikes Back has video drops)...I wonder if there will be problems when I get a RetroTink 5X Pro?)

 

 

Sorry for the quick derail,

 

Now back to your regularly scheduled program.

 

 

So far I've just played it on my flashback portable. It will probably be one of the first games that I play on my 2600+

[+GoldLeader]

1 minute ago, bent_pin said:

So far I've just played it on my flashback portable. It will probably be one of the first games that I play on my 2600+

 

I just hope it plays properly.  For some reason the Emulated version sometimes allows robots to hug the walls and occasionally your shots will go right past them.  This will Never happen on the actual game.

[+GoldLeader]

So,

 

Another Update:

 

I tried playing it through composite, instead of S-Video, and ran it straight in instead of going through the Retro Tink (Which I Do love BTW, as it is usually flawless) and it displayed properly and had no video drops!

 

My camera sucks (as you all know, haha),  but here's a pic:  TBH,  It looks Way Better in real life!!

 

 

 

[+bent_pin]

43 minutes ago, GoldLeader said:

 

I just hope it plays properly.  For some reason the Emulated version sometimes allows robots to hug the walls and occasionally your shots will go right past them.  This will Never happen on the actual game.

Hmmmm, I did notice that one section in the lower-left corner does allow a robot to hug the one stretch of wall, on the flashback portable.

[+GoldLeader]

12 minutes ago, bent_pin said:

Hmmmm, I did notice that one section in the lower-left corner does allow a robot to hug the one stretch of wall, on the flashback portable.

 

Yeah,  That's it.  I couldn't remember if it happened on the portable or not, (I've had it happen on the Flashback (don't remember which one) and on the RetroN 77).  If the robot hugs the wall and you shoot down at him,  sometimes your shot goes right past him and he evades the shot.  I've never seen that happen when playing on the 2600 or 7800.