MSX Community? Thread?

[Captain Cozmos]

If there is anyone around here that works with the MSX I am over in the Coleco/ADAM thread.

I disassembled several Colecovision games and posted the source in or around my various threads.
With some short work, I have no doubts you can adapt them for the MSX.

All the links in the sources are accounted for and you can move the subroutines and data around with no issues as long as you take into consideration a proper assembly language format.

 

You will have to account for any Coleco BIOS routines that are different from the MSX such as Timers, controllers, NMI.  Not to mention memory locations which are set at $7000 on the Colecovision.
 

Assemble with TNIASM.

 

I only ask that you do not sell my work.  If you make something new from what this teaches you then fine but if you are out to change a couple of graphics then sell the game as some new item then I just won't publish any more source code.

I share this with you for historical record and learning.  Maybe some of you will be inspired to make new software.

Captain Cozmos

[+wavemotion]

Over on TFH website (no link provided purposely), they have a folder of Colecovision ports to the MSX. It looks like... as near as I can tell, all of them. At least many hundreds of CV games got ported many years back. 

 

Everything makes it to the MSX - and many of the new CV homebrews in the last decade (especially when using the SGM which brings the CV closer to the MSX for sound and memory) are ported from the MSX.

 

 

[M-S]

Atariage is very focused on systems popular on North America, and the MSX wasn't, even worse, the 2 and 2+ upgrades weren't even released over there. I think no one even mentioned anything when the creator of MSX announced the 3 upgrade recently. But sure, I'll follow your projects over there, I kind of like the simplicity of TMS9918 graphics.

[KG7PFS]

On 11/9/2023 at 11:08 AM, M-S said:

Atariage is very focused on systems popular on North America, and the MSX wasn't, even worse, the 2 and 2+ upgrades weren't even released over there.

I always thought that was weird. All those Japanese brands that were household words in America, and none of them ever sold a computer? Oh, they *did* sell computers? THEN WHY NOT HERE?

[+OLD CS1]

1 hour ago, KG7PFS said:

I always thought that was weird. All those Japanese brands that were household words in America, and none of them ever sold a computer? Oh, they *did* sell computers? THEN WHY NOT HERE?

Different markets have differing tastes and influences which transcend brand.

[M-S]

The MSX is literally identical to the Coleco ADAM in most ways, with just a few internal modifications it could have been made into an MSX compatible computer. The reason nobody did it was most likely because other brands were already in the US market and not in the rest of the world.

[Boschloo]

On 12/2/2023 at 7:08 PM, M-S said:

The MSX is literally identical to the Coleco ADAM in most ways, with just a few internal modifications it could have been made into an MSX compatible computer. The reason nobody did it was most likely because other brands were already in the US market and not in the rest of the world.

It was definitely better than the ADAM. Coleco saddled it with that weird proprietary magnetic tape drive that nobody asked for or wanted. The MSX was huge in Brazil. I'm not sure the Brazilian models were NTSC. They may have been. They use PAL-M which reads NTSC in color. But NTSC tvs see PAL-M in black and white. I should look into it, the stuff put out by Gradiente is on par with Sony.

 

It was actually illegal to import microcomputers commercially into Brazil until 1992. This forced Brazilian companies to produce clones of popular computers. Some of the clones turned out superior to the original.  Some were licensed, but many were original. The funniest one was the Apple II Plus produced by a company named Milmar. It copied the Apple logo and name. Most customers didn't even realize they were buying an unofficial clone. 

Kind of like when China had such a convincing fake Apple Store that even the employees didn't realize that they didn't really work for Apple. 

Edited December 11, 2023 by Boschloo

[carlsson]

Yes, my dream fantasy consists of two computers that never happened:

• Mattel entering the home computer market by partnering with someone who could make a MSX compatible computer, instead of launching Radofin's Aquarius. Mattel might have started off by licensing Sord's M5 computer, which they anyway were looking to get to America but probably didn't have the distribution network for. Once there, the next model could've been fully MSX1 compliant.
• Coleco looking to build upon their console, as noted could have made the ADAM a proper MSX1 computer.

Indeed the MSX standard was announced in June 1983 with the first computers emerging in Japan by October the same year, in a time where the home computer scene was about to shift quickly. While 8-bit machines like the C64 and Atari 800XL still had large parts of the market by mid-1984, I think yet another 8-bit with (almost) the same audiovisual capacities as the TI-99/4A that just closed down, may have been seen as a dead end on the US market, in particular if distribution networks, software etc had to be made (or imported). I'm not sure if Mattel + Coleco on their own would have changed things, but it couldn't be worse than the two offerings they had. Sure, it would have meant two of the biggest rivals on the market suddenly had compatible software, including cartridges.

[+OLD CS1]

8 hours ago, Boschloo said:

It was definitely better than the ADAM. Coleco saddled it with that weird proprietary magnetic tape drive that nobody asked for or wanted.

The ADAM had a disk drive available.  How prevalent was it bitd?

[Krebizfan]

On 12/11/2023 at 6:46 PM, OLD CS1 said:

The ADAM had a disk drive available.  How prevalent was it bitd?

Not very. The disk drive was announced in Nov 1984 while the Adam was terminated in Jan 1985. Only a small number of drives were placed in stores or were in inventory when the surplus companies took over the stock. The Adams that remained in use after 1985 got third party drives but that was only a community of around 20,000 IIRC. 

 

Coleco had spent about a year developing for the Tabor 3.25" disk drive but that was not going to be viable by early 1984. Tabor itself shut down in Aug 1984. 

[Boschloo]

On 12/11/2023 at 3:38 PM, carlsson said:

Yes, my dream fantasy consists of two computers that never happened:

• Mattel entering the home computer market by partnering with someone who could make a MSX compatible computer, instead of launching Radofin's Aquarius. Mattel might have started off by licensing Sord's M5 computer, which they anyway were looking to get to America but probably didn't have the distribution network for. Once there, the next model could've been fully MSX1 compliant.
• Coleco looking to build upon their console, as noted could have made the ADAM a proper MSX1 computer.

Indeed the MSX standard was announced in June 1983 with the first computers emerging in Japan by October the same year, in a time where the home computer scene was about to shift quickly. While 8-bit machines like the C64 and Atari 800XL still had large parts of the market by mid-1984, I think yet another 8-bit with (almost) the same audiovisual capacities as the TI-99/4A that just closed down, may have been seen as a dead end on the US market, in particular if distribution networks, software etc had to be made (or imported). I'm not sure if Mattel + Coleco on their own would have changed things, but it couldn't be worse than the two offerings they had. Sure, it would have meant two of the biggest rivals on the market suddenly had compatible software, including cartridges.

Reading into what you just wrote, are you saying that the MSX was obsolete by the time it was released?

[+OLD CS1]

1 hour ago, Boschloo said:

Reading into what you just wrote, are you saying that the MSX was obsolete by the time it was released?

Me, I say, largely, yes, and it could be argued as to what made it so.  But, it was built on known good, tried and true components, which were inexpensive.  Texas Instruments was pushing the 9918A to anyone who would buy it -- used in arcade machines, home computer video upgrades, the ColecoVision, &c. -- so it was a widely available chip.  Same with the PSG (9919 and derivatives.)  And, of course, we all knew the Z80 and its monster footprint.  The MSX standard was more about a single standard taking over a market segment than a single brand.

 

At the time of adoption, there were (arguably) more capable video chips available.  Commodore's VIC-II, Atari's video chips, the Nintendo PPU (proprietary to the NES,) and others.  For sound, Yamaha had at least a couple of YM chips available by this time, as well.  As for the Z80, there were definitely better CPUs at the time in the 16- and 32-bit arena, like the Motorola 68000 which was released in 1979.

 

But again, the standard appears to have been focused on inexpensive, available, known, and, I will add here, easy to implement.

 

So, yeah, I say the MSX standard was obsolete in terms of technology when it was ratified, but that does not make it unusable by any means.

[carlsson]

Yes, all of the critical components in the MSX were off-the-shelf, at least 4 years old at the time the standard was defined. It was adequate for a home computer, but by no means cutting edge. Perhaps the operating system and the glue holding it all together was a bit more revitalizing, but on a market looking forward for the next thing - and in my opinion the US market has always been more forward-looking than Europe, perhaps even Japan - it would have represented yesteryear's computing standards.

 

Even a system like the Amstrad CPC, which was designed based on coming around all the known flaws with other computers, and while still being an 8-bit Z80 system, would probably not have a market in the US, in particular if it was launched after the Apple Macintosh. Yes, I know the later was at least 5 times, if not 10 times as expensive, but money often is a secondary matter if the tech is there.

 

Of course there is some lead time, in particular if R&D is required. I don't remember exactly when ASCII and Microsoft begun plotting for the MSX standard, but the Spectravideo SVI-318/328 were out in early 1983 and if the hardware standard was said to have been based on those, there was very little time to make changes. Even if there was an earlier reference platform using TI's chips (late 1981, early 1982?), it may have been too soon and with e.g. the Motorola 68000 still too pricey for Japanese electronics firms to consider to join to make a new computer standard.

 

Given that even the Atari ST and Amiga seem to have had fairly marginal market shares, I strongly believe 1984 would have been a pivot year for new computers to get into the American markets, before Macintosh and various IBM PC clones became too prevalent. That means even if the MSX2 in 1986 had come with a 68000, sort of poor man's X68000, it probably had been too late.

[Boschloo]

On 12/14/2023 at 3:58 PM, carlsson said:

 one of the driving factors behind the MSX was to create a low-end, 8-bit variant of the PC standard, though without trying to be overly MS-DOS compatible.

But why? Why create a low-end 8-bit variant, when the future was obviously not 8-bit?

[carlsson]

Very good question. Maybe to squeeze the last bit out of the 8-bit home computer market? While there were a few Japanese brands producing home/personal computers, like Sharp, NEC and Fujitsu, it wouldn't surprise me if there was a general feeling that the US brands would take over unless the domestic ones combined forces.

 

I also have a feeling that the upper end of the market shifted very fast from late 1982 to early 1984. Though the IBM PC had already launched in 1981, the general access to 16-bit systems may have seemed something far into the future at the time MSX as a standard was initiated. By the time the first computers went for sale, the future had come much closer, partly due to Motorola dropping the prices on 68000 after four years on the market. Also, like I wrote above, it is possible that 8-bit home computers were considered to be relevant far longer in the markets where MSX actually was sold, than in the markets where it wasn't.

[+OLD CS1]

I would go so far to say cost.  Lower cost puts computers in the homes of people who might not otherwise have them.  I know that was the case for my family.  A $100 computer with a $50 rebate put the TI-99/4A in my house, along with a bunch of clearance game cartridges.

[carlsson]

Much thanks to Jack and Clive, though the others including Ray may have tried to push down the prices a little before that.

 

Now that I think of it, a MSX with 68008 would be similar to the QL: lower resolution but more colours and hardware sprites (*). Sound wise the AY chip probably is easier to get going, but I think the Intel 8049 can bit-bang more sound out of it. I'm not sure if the system would have to reduce the clock to 3.58 MHz to make the custom chips work and perhaps boost the speed during vertical blank, probably some arcade games could be analyzed to see how they work.

 

(*) I'm not entirely sure if the ZX8301 has any sprite capacity or just bitmapping.

 

It would have been interesting to see what Sega would have done if the MSX1 had a different CPU than the Z80. I learned earlier this year that Sega started designing the SC-3000 home computer, but when they found out about Nintendo's upcoming Famicom video game, they reworked the design to also include the SG-1000 console, which thus was an afterthought and not Sega's initial plan. Apparently the SC-3000 was mainly intended for the Japanese market, more likely the lower end than competing with what the big three (Sharp, NEC, Fujitsu) already were selling.