Certain Atari 400 & atari xe games compatible with each other’s system???

[johannesmutlu]

 

Since the atari xe was just ac onsolized atari 400/800 with extra ram added to it while still remaining compatible with atari 400/800 peripherals,

But since atari also did made specific atari xe games wich cannot be played on the atari 400, but atari 400 games can be played on the atari XE system,

now what i do know is that atari designed the atari xe as a way to take rid off their stockpile of atari 400 games,however they also did put stickers on their atari 400 games saying that it is also ‘compatible with the atari xe system’,while some other companies did  replaced those old game pakages with new ones to sell them as atari XE games

HOWEVER atari also probably did had left some remaining atari 400 cartride pcb’s and put atari xe cartride shells on it and sell them as atari xe games instead as well,

 

BUT those approaches can cause lots of confusion to peoples NOWADAYS because some games like donkeykong and donkeykong junior are repakaged atari 400 games for the atari xe while still being compatible with the atari 400

because they are just exactly the same versions of it,

and since some atari xe games were compatible with the atari 400,you could play them just fine on your atari 400(i just wish they put a label on those xe games to tell consumers that it is also compatible with the atari 400)

however mariobros for example wich was designed with 64KB in mind will not work on the atari 400,and because of that it does makes me sad that once atari did made a demo version of mariobros for the 400,it eventually got cancled for release once atari was sold to jack tramiel

But also because of the game crash of 1983,had it been released then it would,ve be compatible with both the stock atari 400 and atari xe systems etc,,,

 

BUT as of now the only problem we face is that many sellers and buyers among consumers and youtubers do get confused whether a game is specific for the atari xe or also for the atari 400,leading to incorrect information such as that ebay sale picture or that youtube picture on the bothem,stating that mariobros is for both the atari 400,atari 800 and atari xe,wich is NOT fully true,while other xe games are compatible with the atari 400, just see what i mean by looking at those pictures,yes the atari 400 was already dead by 1987 but look at nintendo,they clearly stated wich gbc games did work on the old gameboy and wich gbc games only works on the gameboycolor,despite the old brick gameboy was already dead,so why not?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 12, 2023 by johannesmutlu
To redefining it.

[Rybags]

XE should be at or very near to 100% compatible with all previous official Atari cartridge releases and high 90%ile of carts in general.

Some exceptions and notes:

Missile Command - for it's keyboard control it directly accesses the system keyboard table in OS Rom, so there are at least 2 incompatible versions.  Otherwise the game is still playable, I suspect trackball and pause mode would be missing.

Other games - from memory some incompatible 3rd party carts due to OS differences.  Gorf is one.

In such cases, file versions that have been fixed will usually exist and can be used on any system >=48K.

[johannesmutlu]

15 hours ago, Rybags said:

XE should be at or very near to 100% compatible with all previous official Atari cartridge releases and high 90%ile of carts in general.

Some exceptions and notes:

Missile Command - for it's keyboard control it directly accesses the system keyboard table in OS Rom, so there are at least 2 incompatible versions.  Otherwise the game is still playable, I suspect trackball and pause mode would be missing.

Other games - from memory some incompatible 3rd party carts due to OS differences.  Gorf is one.

In such cases, file versions that have been fixed will usually exist and can be used on any system >=48K.

This is something very interesting to mention,now let’s hope that there will be a fixed version of mariobros running on a STOCK atari 400 or if somebody could track down the demo version of mariobros for the atari 400,because despite that there is a 5200 to atari 800 port of mariobros by a homebrewer,but that version cannot run on a stock atari 400,it actually makes little sense that 5200 to atari 800 port of mariobros since the xe version of mariobros can also run on a atari 800,

so am really on a hope for a fixed mariobros homebrew port for the stock atari 400 or that demo version of mariobros for the atari 400,whether in rom or repro cartride format,that would be a wet dream to come true,even if i have to trade in the supirior version of xe mariobros for it😁

Edited November 13, 2023 by johannesmutlu

[CPUWIZ]

Ik denk dat je misschien wilt opzoeken wat "wet dream" betekent.

[johannesmutlu]

30 minutes ago, CPUWIZ said:

Ik denk dat je misschien wilt opzoeken wat "wet dream" betekent.

Heel simpel,dat betekent ‘n natte droom,en wij weten allemaal maar al te goed wat ‘n natte droom in houd,maar het betekent vooral in het engels als gezegdw ook dat, indien je iets heel erg graag wilt hebben of hoopt dat iets uitkomt,dan hoop je daar heel erg op,vandaar ook het gezegde in het engels  ‘it would be a wet dream if it will becomes true’

tja ik weet niet of jij ‘n atari fan bent maar ik ben sins meer dan ‘n jaar en dag ‘n echte atari fan geworden,30 jaar lang was ik altijd en alleen nintendo fan,ik vond sega ook wel leuk maar nintendo vond ik toch leuker,ik ben dan ook apetrots op al mijn atari systemen die ik in de laatste 1,5 jqar heb aangeschaft en met nog meer geld te gaan sparen lijkt het einde nog steeds niet in zicht,

ook heb ik andere systemen zoals de C64,ti99 ,intelevision 2,colecovision etc,,, en ook daar ben ik apetrots op ze te bezitten😁

 

Edited November 13, 2023 by johannesmutlu

[tep392]

@johannesmutlu, Do you have any cartridges yet for your 400?  Do you plan on getting a multi-cart?

[+kheller2]

Um... aren't the only considerations 1) RAM and 2) OS-RevB vs XL OS   That should sum up what can be played on a "stock" 400.

[Rybags]

Pretty much, as well as 4 controllers on 400 (such games usually work on XL anyway)

 

[johannesmutlu]

On 11/14/2023 at 10:37 PM, tep392 said:

@johannesmutlu, Do you have any cartridges yet for your 400?  Do you plan on getting a multi-cart?

Well to your question ,i do have many cartrides for the atari 400 including donkeykong,donkeykong jr,pac man,popeye etc,,,

however i do also do own xe mariobros with the assumption that it would also work on a stock atari 400 since the seller did claimed that it would work on atari 400 as well on his auction site channel on ebay,BUT as it turns out,that game wouldn’t work on a atari 400,even not when upgraded to 48KB,

the homebrew port of the 5200 does work on a upgraded atari 400, however i do believe the demo version of mariobros from atari from 1983 should work on a stock atari 400,no ram upgrades,now if only i can track down that version somewhere online,i will be all over it,in such case i might as well buy a flashcard for the atari 400 and put that game on it and make my own costum label for it.  
 

Note: that the 5200 version of mariobros is 16KB but once it was ported to the atari 800,it became 20KB because of the added patch by the homebrewer so it can no longer on a stock atari 400,however atari’s own 5200 to 400 version(demo or cancled completed version) should work on a stock atari 400 because rather then addong a patch ,they probably changed some of the code to line it up with those memory locations of the atari 400 in order to keep it within the 16KB size (atari 5200 and atari 400 are the same hardware except having some different memory locations)
But again if only i could find that damn rom version of it or if a homebrewer does sell that version on his auction site and he can be 100% garantee that it will work on a stock atari 400, i definitely gonna buy that version,so my search and hunt goes on.

[tep392]

5200 version is not 16k. It’s a 32k cart with 20k of data. 

[johannesmutlu]

8 hours ago, tep392 said:

5200 version is not 16k. It’s a 32k cart with 20k of data. 

Huh wooow are you serious??? For what i do understand is that the atari 5200 only has 16KB  of ram,so in such case,how could mariobros being whether 20KB or 32KB work on the 5200???

thanks for mentioning this anyway😁👍

[tep392]

Why do you think that everything needs to be loaded into RAM?  The CPU can run code out of ROM or RAM. How do you think it’s possible for a system like the 7800 to run 128k ROM carts with only 4k of RAM? You seem to not understand some fundamental concepts of computer architecture. 

[johannesmutlu]

4 hours ago, tep392 said:

Why do you think that everything needs to be loaded into RAM?  The CPU can run code out of ROM or RAM. How do you think it’s possible for a system like the 7800 to run 128k ROM carts with only 4k of RAM? You seem to not understand some fundamental concepts of computer architecture. 

Well i do know there is a functionality called bankswitching wich could be done trough hardware or software,

the nes for instance does have 32KB of rom but to make 64KB games or above that range possible,the game needs to be splitted into sections of 32KB,16KB or 8KB etc,,,,along with a mapper wich can swap each section in and out of that 32KB rom once needed,

the atari lynx for instance needs to have the entire game loaded first into it’s 512KB rom and then from there the game depending on it’s size has to be bankswitched into sections of 64KB and load each section in and out of it’s 64KB ram,so normally atari lynx games cannot be bigger then 512KB or compressed 2MB into 512KB,why the atari lynx works in such weird way is because it was originally intended to use small cassette tapes instead,

just remember,if bankswitching wasn’t invented,then games couldn’t be bigger then the rom size of a certain system,

 

 

now about mariobros  i do know that xe mariobros is 64KB BUT that game is splitted in sections of 8KB so therefore it actually should technically work on 8KB atari 8bit computers if the bankswitching happens trough an mapper inside the cartride itself,BUT if the entire game is loaded into the 64KB ram of the atari xe or atari 65XE etc,,, then the bankswitching will probably happen inside the system instead trough it’s own hardware,wich doesn’t sound that strange to me if it was designed with floppy disks in mind since floppy disks could be 750KB in size sothat each section has to be loaded one by one in and out into it’s internal ram of the system (whether in sections of 8,16,32 or 64KB etc,,)

now as far as i do know no atari 5200 game uses bankswitching trough software,maybe trough the hardware,but if atari 5200 mariobros is bigger then 16KB (20 or 32KB) then i do wonder why the ported 5290 to 800 port of mariobros by a homebrewer wouldn’t work on the atari 400 with 16KB of ram since the atari 5200 also does has not more then 16KB of ram,so it makes me wonder why i would have to upgrade the ram of the atari 400 along with soldering stuff on it,now if it was just only a matter of plug & play i wouldn’t minded such ram upgrade,

Anyway my search for how and what and why will goes on and if that demo version of mariobros for the atari 400 will be ever dumped online and/or getting reproduced by a homebrewer on cart,disk or cassette tape,i definitely will buy one and download it and put it on a flashcard if i will get one😁

 

[tep392]

1 hour ago, johannesmutlu said:

 

 

 

now about mariobros  i do know that xe mariobros is 64KB BUT that game is splitted in sections of 8KB so therefore it actually should technically work on 8KB atari 8bit computers if the bankswitching happens trough an mapper inside the cartride itself,BUT if the entire game is loaded into the 64KB ram of the atari xe or atari 65XE etc,,, then the bankswitching will probably happen inside the system instead trough it’s own hardware,wich doesn’t sound that strange to me if it was designed with floppy disks in mind since floppy disks could be 750KB in size sothat each section has to be loaded one by one in and out into it’s internal ram of the system (whether in sections of 8,16,32 or 64KB etc,,)

now as far as i do know no atari 5200 game uses bankswitching trough software,maybe trough the hardware,but if atari 5200 mariobros is bigger then 16KB (20 or 32KB) then i do wonder why the ported 5290 to 800 port of mariobros by a homebrewer wouldn’t work on the atari 400 with 16KB of ram since the atari 5200 also does has not more then 16KB of ram,so it makes me wonder why i would have to upgrade the ram of the atari 400 along with soldering stuff on it,now if it was just only a matter of plug & play i wouldn’t minded such ram upgrade,

 

 

You are still quite confused.  First off, stop associating the size of banks with the size of RAM.  The two things have nothing to do with each other.  There's no benefit to making bank size equal RAM size.  Also, bank switching is a hardware mechanism.  There is no such thing as software bank switching.  The entire 64K XE Mario Brothers is not copied into XEGS RAM.  There is certainly a portion of it that runs directly out of ROM.  If you think about the 7800 which has games that were released up to 144k and that console only has 4k of RAM.  There is very little of that code that get's copied to RAM.

 

By the way, did you know the 5200 can map 32K of ROM without bank switching?  The entire 32K is visible to the CPU at all times.  That is actually an advantage over the computer line which only maps 16K to the address space. 

[+warerat]

1 hour ago, johannesmutlu said:

now about mariobros  i do know that xe mariobros is 64KB BUT that game is splitted in sections of 8KB so therefore it actually should technically work on 8KB atari 8bit computers if the bankswitching happens trough an mapper inside the cartride itself

 

The Mario Bros XE cart isn't going to work on the 400, for these two reasons:

1. The banked region is in the right cartridge address space and with the byte values as they are, OS-B will jump to low memory at $140D from the address at $9FFE-$9FFF.  The XL OS doesn't initialize right cartridges so it doesn't have this problem.
2. The game itself uses memory between $4000-$7FFF.  So on an un-expanded 400, this is a memory hole.  If you had 32K it would work, but you still have problem #1 unless you patch the OS.

How do I know this?   I spent 5 minutes with the Altirra debugger.

 

Given your visionary attention to detail, I think if you partner up with Ray Jackson between the two of you we could have an entertaining software porting renaissance for the 5200 and the 400.

[johannesmutlu]

1 hour ago, warerat said:

 

The Mario Bros XE cart isn't going to work on the 400, for these two reasons:

1. The banked region is in the right cartridge address space and with the byte values as they are, OS-B will jump to low memory at $140D from the address at $9FFE-$9FFF.  The XL OS doesn't initialize right cartridges so it doesn't have this problem.
2. The game itself uses memory between $4000-$7FFF.  So on an un-expanded 400, this is a memory hole.  If you had 32K it would work, but you still have problem #1 unless you patch the OS.

How do I know this?   I spent 5 minutes with the Altirra debugger.

 

Given your visionary attention to detail, I think if you partner up with Ray Jackson between the two of you we could have an entertaining software porting renaissance for the 5200 and the 400.

Now that’s what i call interesting information,i love how for instance modern vintage gamer from youtube could explain everything in detail including how to hack stuff,

thanks for mentioning this i really appreciate that👍

[CPUWIZ]

So, are you cured now?

[johannesmutlu]

On 11/23/2023 at 11:33 PM, CPUWIZ said:

So, are you cured now?

Well the more i know,the more i will.

[tep392]

On 11/23/2023 at 10:08 AM, warerat said:

 

The Mario Bros XE cart isn't going to work on the 400, for these two reasons:

1. The banked region is in the right cartridge address space and with the byte values as they are, OS-B will jump to low memory at $140D from the address at $9FFE-$9FFF.  The XL OS doesn't initialize right cartridges so it doesn't have this problem.
2. The game itself uses memory between $4000-$7FFF.  So on an un-expanded 400, this is a memory hole.  If you had 32K it would work, but you still have problem #1 unless you patch the OS.

How do I know this?   I spent 5 minutes with the Altirra debugger.

 

Given your visionary attention to detail, I think if you partner up with Ray Jackson between the two of you we could have an entertaining software porting renaissance for the 5200 and the 400.

Very interesting. I just hacked the Mario Bros XE image to replace all the 9FFC 00's with 01's.  It seems to be running just fine now on my 800 with 32k of RAM installed.  I'm using the cart image in my Ultimate Cart.  Sadly, I don't think Johannesmutlu will ever be brave enough to open up his 400 and install a 32K RAM card, so he is going to miss out on running Mario Bros XE on his 400.

 

edit: FYI for Johannesmutlu. 32K RAM cards can be installed in the 400 without any soldering required. Just pull out the 16K card and replace with 32K card.

[johannesmutlu]

On 11/29/2023 at 6:12 PM, tep392 said:

Very interesting. I just hacked the Mario Bros XE image to replace all the 9FFC 00's with 01's.  It seems to be running just fine now on my 800 with 32k of RAM installed.  I'm using the cart image in my Ultimate Cart.  Sadly, I don't think Johannesmutlu will ever be brave enough to open up his 400 and install a 32K RAM card, so he is going to miss out on running Mario Bros XE on his 400.

 

edit: FYI for Johannesmutlu. 32K RAM cards can be installed in the 400 without any soldering required. Just pull out the 16K card and replace with 32K card.

Are you sure it’s the xe version of mariobros you hacked to run on a 32KB ram card for the A400 and not the 5200 port of it???

i ask this because for what i,ve seen on youtube is that both the glenn and stampan hacked version of mariobros are both ported from the 5200,mmm,

now if only i could find a 32KB ram card and ultimate flashcard for the A00,i might consider opening my atari 400 and try it out myself,just maybe,,,,ever in the near future.

[tep392]

5 hours ago, johannesmutlu said:

Are you sure it’s the xe version of mariobros you hacked to run on a 32KB ram card for the A400 and not the 5200 port of it???

i ask this because for what i,ve seen on youtube is that both the glenn and stampan hacked version of mariobros are both ported from the 5200,mmm,

now if only i could find a 32KB ram card and ultimate flashcard for the A00,i might consider opening my atari 400 and try it out myself,just maybe,,,,ever in the near future.

Of course I’m sure. Download the file I posted in the other thread and run in emulation if you want to verify. 

[CPUWIZ]

20 minutes ago, tep392 said:

Of course I’m sure. Download the file I posted in the other thread and run in emulation if you want to verify. 

Why do you even entertain a response, he didn't even read what you posted properly?

[tep392]

1 hour ago, CPUWIZ said:

Why do you even entertain a response, he didn't even read what you posted properly?

I guess I have a high annoyance threshold.