The Paddles

[tradyblix]

On 12/28/2023 at 11:48 PM, akator said:

The paddle pack is back in stock at Amazon US.

I checked 2 days later, and it's "currently unavailable" again. 

 

https://www.amazon.com/Game-Cartridge-Paddle-Pack-Atari-2600/dp/B0CG7MTGPD/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2RMWJY33WF2V8&keywords=atari+4+in+1+paddle&qid=1703989334&sprefix=atari+4+in+1+paddle%2Caps%2C107&sr=8-1#customerReviews

Edited December 31, 2023 by tradyblix

[Glokenpop]

9 hours ago, remowilliams said:

  

 

On the subject of paddle movement being more jumpy/coarse on the 2600+ in Breakout.

 

I was trying out the new Atari paddles earlier.  These videos are the new Atari paddles being moved slowly - 2600 on the left, 2600+ on the right.  I can't say I'm seeing much difference ?

 

 

   

 

 

 

 

Thanks for doing that. The 2600+ looks worse to me but I wasn't aware the original did it as well.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

Looks to me like moving pixel by pixel. There are only 160.

[tradyblix]

I played super breakout on the 1.1 update for the 2600+ and maybe it's just that I'm getting better at the paddles or they're better in that release (although someone said it's worse). But it seems fine to me. 

 

I tend to think most people just don't have a lot of paddle experience 

[ErwinHooi]

I noticed that player 3 and 4 on the second set of paddles don’t work correctly with Warlords! They barely reach one third of the position range:( I connected both the new and original paddle controller set to the second connector but both with same result. With no controllers connected it already shows that player 3 and player 4 positions are incorrect. Such a bummer, so no need to order a second set of paddles for now!

[tradyblix]

On 12/31/2023 at 4:49 PM, tradyblix said:

I played super breakout on the 1.1 update for the 2600+ and maybe it's just that I'm getting better at the paddles or they're better in that release (although someone said it's worse). But it seems fine to me. 

 

I tend to think most people just don't have a lot of paddle experience 

Actually I was wrong after I played those games on the Atari 50 collection there is definitely an issue

[Sean_1970]

6 hours ago, tradyblix said:

Actually I was wrong after I played those games on the Atari 50 collection there is definitely an issue

I recently played the 4-in-1 cart and Breakout was the only game with jittery paddles, so I’m satisfied there’s nothing wrong with the controller itself and I can’t see how Breakout specifically could have issues unless Stella isn’t emulating it correctly?

[DEANJIMMY]

19 minutes ago, Sean_1970 said:

I recently played the 4-in-1 cart and Breakout was the only game with jittery paddles, so I’m satisfied there’s nothing wrong with the controller itself and I can’t see how Breakout specifically could have issues unless Stella isn’t emulating it correctly?

I don't have the new pack but games and paddles from the old days and paddles on a Mikrohändler Joystick with no jitter.

Yesterday I tested paddle games and hardware on my 2600 Jr for an coming event of Dr. Pong and yes, this jitter is game related.

Warlords, Medieval Mayham, Crazy Brix (on 7800), Solar Storm did play smooth and fine.

However Super Breakout (and therefore probably Breakout) and Kaboom give you a slight jerky paddle control with same setup.

 

So, Super Breakout and Kaboom give you paddles with very little but noticable jitter in best case on original hardware.

 

But the effect was much stronger, when I played these games on my 2600+ (V1.0, did not check on V1.1).

 

So the problem is in these two games but on original hardware it is barely noticable, so most of us forgot how it was.

On the 2600+ the effect is stronger and if you compare it with smooth other games you played right before, it feels broken.

Edited January 3 by DEANJIMMY

[Sean_1970]

4 hours ago, DEANJIMMY said:

I don't have the new pack but games and paddles from the old days and paddles on a Mikrohändler Joystick with no jitter.

Yesterday I tested paddle games and hardware on my 2600 Jr for an coming event of Dr. Pong and yes, this jitter is game related.

Warlords, Medieval Mayham, Crazy Brix (on 7800), Solar Storm did play smooth and fine.

However Super Breakout (and therefore probably Breakout) and Kaboom give you a slight jerky paddle control with same setup.

 

So, Super Breakout and Kaboom give you paddles with very little but noticable jitter in best case on original hardware.

 

But the effect was much stronger, when I played these games on my 2600+ (V1.0, did not check on V1.1).

 

So the problem is in these two games but on original hardware it is barely noticable, so most of us forgot how it was.

On the 2600+ the effect is stronger and if you compare it with smooth other games you played right before, it feels broken.

That’s interesting. Maybe the old paddles have more play which makes the jitter less noticeable? Meaning the slight resistance of the new paddles makes it more obvious because the movement is being tracked better - I think that makes sense?

 

Added: Just played a couple games of Super Breakout - game 1 and 3 - vanilla and double. Double seemed a little more stable - actually managed to clear the board 😁 Switched to Circus Atari and that was much more stable (managed to clear the board once there too 😇). I did notice with Circus Atari I could get the on-screen figure to move just by shaking the paddle a bit, even when not touching the dial. Could be the potentiometer in the new one is more sensitive as well 🤔

Edited January 3 by Sean_1970

[DEANJIMMY]

51 minutes ago, Sean_1970 said:

That’s interesting. Maybe the old paddles have more play which makes the jitter less noticeable? Meaning the slight resistance of the new paddles makes it more obvious because the movement is being tracked better - I think that makes sense?

I do not have the new paddles!

But Super Breakout and Kaboom (same cart, same paddles, same TV) give you on real 2600 a little jitter which seems to be related to the programming of the game.

How ever on the 2600+ emulation it is a little bit worse, so people start to notice.

 

So, the problem ist in the games and the emulation makes it more noticable. I am sure with some fine tuning in UI you could get the same experience as on a 2600 Jr but even there it is not so good. I once thought my old paddles have jitter but now I know that my Paddles on the Mikrohändler are perfect, so I am sure the games trigger the problem and it gets a little bit worse with emulation. Play Solar Storm or Video Olympics and then compare it with Super Breakout or Kaboom. With same console, TV and paddles you get worse results on Super Breakout and Kaboom. On the 2600+ it is just easier to notice, as it gets a bit more worse.

Edited January 3 by DEANJIMMY

[Sean_1970]

5 minutes ago, DEANJIMMY said:

No, that's not what I meant. I do not have the new paddles!

But Super Breakout and Kaboom (same cart, same paddles, same TV) give you on real 2600 a little jitter which seems to be related to the programming of the game.

How ever on the 2600+ emulation it is a little bit worse, so people start to notice.

 

So, the problem ist in the games and the emulation makes it more noticable. I am sure with some fine tuning in UI you could get the same experience as on a 2600 Jr but even there it is not so good. I once thought my old paddles have jitter but now I know that my Paddles on the Mikrohändler are perfect, so I am sure the games trigger the problem and it gets a little bit worse with emulation. Play Solar Storm or Video Olympics and then compare it with Super Breakout or Kaboom. With same console, TV and paddles you get worse results on Super Breakout and Kaboom. On the 2600+ it is just easier to notice, as it gets a bit more worse.

No I understood you don’t have the new paddles, I was just musing as to what the difference could be between them since I don’t have old ones to compare the feel of in my hand.

 

i think the emulation has some kind of tuning options for sensitivity, but giving users some kind of UI to adjust might be better than having a global adjustment that is hidden and might make some games worse. I still prefer paddles to other analogue interfaces for these games 😊

[chad5200]

For Super Breakout, Breakout and Kaboom, the paddles on the NEW 2600+ are "jumpy".  And by "jumpy" I mean, they are not as smooth (I am not saying they jump back and forth or jittering like you'd see with dirty old paddles).  There is less "resolution" between steps on the NEW 2600+.

 

There is no doubt about it.  It's quite obvious when you compare the same well cleaned classic paddles (or even the brand new CX30+ paddles) on the NEW 2600+ vs. the ORIGINAL 2600 in the games of Breakout, Super Breakout, and Kaboom. 

 

Let's take Super Breakout for example, you will find that for every ONE "step" the paddle takes on the ORIGINAL 2600, the same ONE "step" jumps twice as far on the NEW 2600+.  This means the ORIGINAL 2600 has twice the resolution for fine movement.  It's quite noticeable.

 

Seems like it's the Stella paddle emulator that would be causing this?  Or does the NEW 2600+ hardware not have the same paddle control resolution as the ORIGINAL 2600?

 

Really hoping this gets addressed!

 

[Thomas Jentzsch]

22 minutes ago, chad5200 said:

Seems like it's the Stella paddle emulator that would be causing this?  Or does the NEW 2600+ hardware not have the same paddle control resolution as the ORIGINAL 2600?

Stella's sensitivity is 100% by default for paddle games. Must be the 2600+ then.

 

Did that happen with the 1.0 build too?

[chad5200]

23 minutes ago, Thomas Jentzsch said:

Stella's sensitivity is 100% by default for paddle games. Must be the 2600+ then.

 

Did that happen with the 1.0 build too?

Yes.

 

[tradyblix]

12 hours ago, Sean_1970 said:

I recently played the 4-in-1 cart and Breakout was the only game with jittery paddles, so I’m satisfied there’s nothing wrong with the controller itself and I can’t see how Breakout specifically could have issues unless Stella isn’t emulating it correctly?

super breakout has issues (not unplayable) with the way the paddle moves. it's not smooth. It doesn't seem to be the controller specifically. Compare the way it moves to Super breakout inside the Atari 50 collection on PS5 and it's obvious. 

 

Now.. is that the emulation ? the processor ? something else ? I dunno. 

Maybe the original 2600 was like this and the Atari 50 collection is TOO SMOOTH (?) I dunno. I never played paddle games on my light sixer much and have no TV to hook it up to today to check. 

Edited January 3 by tradyblix

[infinite.pies]

The last time I played with original paddles must have been around 1983!

 

Now, I know that's a very long time ago, but I vividly recall being extremely frustrated with the jittery paddles, so much so that I hated playing breakout. 

 

I was extremely surprised when I started playing breakout on the 2600+ with new paddles, as I felt it was a vast improvement.

 

I've never played with any other emulation, and I don't (yet) have super breakout to try.

 

Maybe my memory is faulty, or maybe there's some other issue at play, but the new paddles feel relatively good to me! I've been playing mostly using a 27" computer monitor rather than a huge TV, so maybe that's helping? Or maybe my original paddles were a bit dodgy? Who knows?

 

I'm not doubting that some people are experiencing problems, but I'm just offering my experience so far. 

[+remowilliams]

2 hours ago, chad5200 said:

For Super Breakout, Breakout and Kaboom, the paddles on the NEW 2600+ are "jumpy".  And by "jumpy" I mean, they are not as smooth (I am not saying they jump back and forth or jittering like you'd see with dirty old paddles).  There is less "resolution" between steps on the NEW 2600+.

 

That's why I checked it and posted those videos earlier of both systems, and I'm not seeing a difference really.  As Thomas Jentzsch mentioned above, it's a course resolution for the 2600.

[Sean_1970]

55 minutes ago, tradyblix said:

super breakout has issues (not unplayable) with the way the paddle moves. it's not smooth. It doesn't seem to be the controller specifically. Compare the way it moves to Super breakout inside the Atari 50 collection on PS5 and it's obvious. 

 

Now.. is that the emulation ? the processor ? something else ? I dunno. 

Maybe the original 2600 was like this and the Atari 50 collection is TOO SMOOTH (?) I dunno. I never played paddle games on my light sixer much and have no TV to hook it up to today to check. 

When I play super breakout on Atari 50, I’m using a DualSense touchpad, so not even the same technology, but even with an analogue thumb stick do we know if Eclipse is using Stella for emulation?

 

It would be interesting to know if anyone has tried the new paddles with Stella on a computer platform (assuming that’s even possible). Might could be playing with the sensitivity would get different results!

[Sean_1970]

6 minutes ago, remowilliams said:

 

That's why I checked it and posted those videos earlier of both systems, and I'm not seeing a difference really.  As Thomas Jentzsch mentioned above, it's a course resolution for the 2600.

So if the 2600+ was increased to 1080p output, as Ben from Plaion has suggested is his goal, would that make a difference?

[chad5200]

5 minutes ago, remowilliams said:

 

That's why I checked it and posted those videos earlier of both systems, and I'm not seeing a difference really.  As Thomas Jentzsch mentioned above, it's a course resolution for the 2600.

I am doing A/B comparisons with the same TV, the same (brand new CX30+) paddles, and the same game (Super Breakout) between a 2600 and 2600+. 
 

The issue is obvious if you compare this way. The 2600+ does not have the paddle resolution that the 2600 has in Super Breakout.

 

[+remowilliams]

1 minute ago, chad5200 said:

I am doing A/B comparisons with the same TV, the same (brand new CX30+) paddles, and the same game (Super Breakout) between a 2600 and 2600+. 

That is exactly what those two videos capture, 2600 on the left 2600+ on the right.

[chad5200]

8 minutes ago, remowilliams said:

That is exactly what those two videos capture, 2600 on the left 2600+ on the right.

Do the same thing but with Super Breakout. 

[tradyblix]

35 minutes ago, Sean_1970 said:

When I play super breakout on Atari 50, I’m using a DualSense touchpad, so not even the same technology, but even with an analogue thumb stick do we know if Eclipse is using Stella for emulation?

 

It would be interesting to know if anyone has tried the new paddles with Stella on a computer platform (assuming that’s even possible). Might could be playing with the sensitivity would get different results!

Yeah I don't know. I know enough to say that I can't say. 

 

It's not just the feel of the controls tho. It visually is much cleaner moving pixel to pixel on Atari 50 than on the 2600+. 

 

It's not really a big deal for me tho as paddle games are more of a curiosity for me than actually something I play often

Edited January 4 by tradyblix

[chad5200]

Here is a quick video showing the difference between the classic 2600 and the new 2600+ in regards to paddle resolution in the game Super Breakout.

 

Same game, same TV, and same paddles (the excellent brand new CX30+) used on both systems in this comparison.  I have a line near the bottom to help show the differences.

 

 

 

[Sean_1970]

44 minutes ago, chad5200 said:

Here is a quick video showing the difference between the classic 2600 and the new 2600+ in regards to paddle resolution in the game Super Breakout.

 

Same game, same TV, and same paddles (the excellent brand new CX30+) used on both systems in this comparison.  I have a line near the bottom to help show the differences.

 

 

 

It’s weird that it’s so specific to this and Breakout - what’s your experience with Circus Atari (which I find a lot less jittery on 2600+) and Kaboom (which is pretty jittery)?