Incognito Cartridge Issues

[Spudster]

Bought a BackBit Pro and have been trying to get it working on my Incognito-equipped Atari 800. Further testing with all the carts I own showed that not all of them work.

 

Having an original first-run Incognito board and hearing the initial CPLD code had cart issues, I started down the rabbit hole of reprogramming my CPLD.

 

I was able to flash the 2.0 JED on to my Incognito (confirmed on the BIOS "Info" page), but I'm still running into cart issues. Here's my story.

 

The following cartridges were functioning prior to flash:

Congo Bongo

AtariWriter

Galaxian

 

The following cartridge wouldn't launch before, but did after flash:

Pole Position

 

The following cartridges will not work before or after:

Miner 2049er

River Raid

BASIC

Space Invaders

Backbit Pro

 

All cartridges work fine on my (glitchy) 1200XL that has a U1MB installed.

I've tried the "official" 2.0 JED, as well as the two JEDs found on the forums (Incognito-BETA-CPLD-2021_10_07-BIT3_VBXE.JED and Incognito-BETA-CPLD-2023_01_11-BIT3_VBXE.JED).

 

Incognito BIOS info screen: BIOS version: 4.20, Plugin: VB, Version: 2.20, JED version: 2.0, Computer: 800, CPU: 6502 1.79MHz, Video: NTSC 60, VBXE core: Not present

U1MB BIOS info screen: Version: 4.20, Computer: XL/XE, CPU: 6502C 1.79MHz, Video: NTSC 60

 

At this point I'm out of ideas. Anyone have any suggestions?

[Beeblebrox]

So - stating the obvious here I know - but to use carts you have (in the incognito bios) , disabled the PBI hdd and the boot to loader options, saved this in bios, powered down, popped the cart in the left cart slot, closed the bay door, and booted up? 

 

Also, jed 2.0 adds a few functions/menu extras irrc. Might be worth posting a few bios screen images up just in case one of the menu choices is incorrect. 

 

 

Edited December 28, 2023 by Beeblebrox

[Spudster]

3 hours ago, Beeblebrox said:

So - stating the obvious here I know - but to use carts you have (in the incognito bios) , disabled the PBI hdd and the boot to loader options, saved this in bios, powered down, popped the cart in the left cart slot, closed the bay door, and booted up? 

 

Also, jed 2.0 adds a few functions/menu extras irrc. Might be worth posting a few bios screen images up just in case one of the menu choices is incorrect. 

 

 

Yeah, I’ve been using as stripped down a profile as possible. Oddly enough, Miner 2049er is now working.
 

Attached are the screenshots of my primary testing profile. I’ve also tried the same settings, but configured as a barebones Coleen.

[bandit]

Candle came out with a Patch for the Cartridges, not sure for yours but I would check and see, it's here on AA That was for the first run boards

 

 

[flashjazzcat]

You already have the most recent JED, and there is no requirement to 'disable the PBI' on the Incognito in order to get cartridges working. I'd be inclined to check wiring with specific reference to RD4/5.

[Spudster]

12 hours ago, flashjazzcat said:

You already have the most recent JED, and there is no requirement to 'disable the PBI' on the Incognito in order to get cartridges working. I'd be inclined to check wiring with specific reference to RD4/5.

Well, it appears the idiot* who installed this Incognito wired RD4/5 backwards. Thanks a TON for pointing me down the proper road, and like most Atari hardware hackers, this is far from the first time you’ve helped (your YouTube videos were essential with my 1200XL + U1MB install).

 

On a side note, Lotharek’s instructions suggest replacing the RD4/5 resistors with 1.5K-2.2K ones (mine are 680) for better cart compatibility. All my carts are now working, so will likely leave well enough alone, but I’d like to know what your experience has been.

 

 

 

* Me

[Beeblebrox]

Glad all sorted. Easy mistake to make.

I always replace rd4/5 with 2.2k resistors. 

[Spudster]

1 hour ago, Beeblebrox said:

Glad all sorted. Easy mistake to make.

I always replace rd4/5 with 2.2k resistors. 

Then I shall do the same, especially since while the BBPro now loads, ROMs won’t run.

 

Will they need to be replaced again if I opt to return the machine to stock?

[Beeblebrox]

23 minutes ago, Spudster said:

Then I shall do the same, especially since while the BBPro now loads, ROMs won’t run.

 

Will they need to be replaced again if I opt to return the machine to stock?

Not sure. Guess so.

 

Reversing Incognito is of course possible, (although if you have done the ATR swap button mod it's more involved re-establishing the cut trace, replaced components, removing microswitch, the modded light emitter, etc).

 

Just make sure you have kept passive components, chips, etc replaced.

 

Personally I am not sure why anyone would want to reverse it given the Incognito allows it to run in colleen mode, and it adds to much to the 800.  For example a CF card full of 1000s of games and demos, images and music that load very quickly). 

See my incognito install guide in my signature BTW. (Compliments Fjc's original install vids). 

Edited December 29, 2023 by Beeblebrox

[Spudster]

4 hours ago, Beeblebrox said:

Not sure. Guess so.

 

Reversing Incognito is of course possible, (although if you have done the ATR swap button mod it's more involved re-establishing the cut trace, replaced components, removing microswitch, the modded light emitter, etc).

 

Just make sure you have kept passive components, chips, etc replaced.

 

Personally I am not sure why anyone would want to reverse it given the Incognito allows it to run in colleen mode, and it adds to much to the 800.  For example a CF card full of 1000s of games and demos, images and music that load very quickly). 

See my incognito install guide in my signature BTW. (Compliments Fjc's original install vids). 

Technically I agree that with the Incognito, reverting to stock is a trivial BIOS change, but I always try to keep the option of reverting all the hardware back to original on the table which is why I didn’t do any other mods. At this point, though, I can’t fathom ever selling my precious. I think to satisfy my inner perfectionist, I’ll just leave a note in the case outlining the components replaced.

 

Woah, I just realized it was YOUR guide I was following to flash the CPLD on this system. Some years back, I actually used the forum posts you linked when troubleshooting issues a bricked U1MB (which remains broke), but your guide was MUCH easier to follow, thanks! I now plan to follow your Incognito guide just to double-check all my work.

[flashjazzcat]

14 hours ago, Spudster said:

Will they need to be replaced again if I opt to return the machine to stock?

No - the recommended Incognito spec RD4/5 resistors won't affect the machine if it's returned to stock.

 

PS: the reason it's recommended to change these current limiting resistors is not to improve cartridge compatibility, etc, but to protect the Xilinx chip on the Incognito itself from the occasional cart which decides to put 5V on either of these signal lines. The Xilinx part was supposed to be '5V Tolerant', but Candle discovered early on when designing devices using this chip that no, it isn't (it blew up).

Edited December 30, 2023 by flashjazzcat

[Spudster]

As FJC pointed out, replacing those resistors didn’t help get the BBPro fully working. It still only gets to the selection menu, then fails trying to load any ROM. 😞 

 

I’m going to retrace all the installation steps just in case I boned some other connection. I could just be happy the BBPro works on my stock-ish 130XE and U1MB 1200XL (and 7800 and TS2068), but the 800 is my centerpiece, so I’m gonna keep up the fight.

[Overange]

You may of already done this, but have you connected the reset wire from the BackBit Cartridge to pin 3 of the cd4050 on your 800?

 

And if possible can you show the Backbit cartridge installed in your system(s)?

 

This will be good for others to see how it is installed and used.

 

[Spudster]

On 12/30/2023 at 11:14 AM, Overange said:

You may of already done this, but have you connected the reset wire from the BackBit Cartridge to pin 3 of the cd4050 on your 800?

 

And if possible can you show the Backbit cartridge installed in your system(s)?

 

This will be good for others to see how it is installed and used.

 

I’ve tried that in past, and just tried it again, but still no dice. Actually, it doesn’t change the behavior of the BBPro at all, but since the BBPro can’t successfully load a cart, this may not mean anything.

 

I've also just completed walking through @Beeblebrox’s (fantastic) guide, confirming I got all the jumpers and connection points correct.

 

So at this point, I’m out of ideas. Personally, this has the stink of a software compatibility issue, but I’m not familiar enough with the hardware OR software to say that with a great deal of confidence, thus am hoping those with more knowledge can guide me in the right direction

 

Following @Overange’s suggestion, attached is a shot of the setup from behind.

[Beeblebrox]

@Spudster one thing. Might be totally irrelevant, but with one pal incognito install I had frequent crashing and lockups. I replaced the gtia and it fix it. Up to that point there was no obvious indication gtia was failing as games like a tree Atariblast! played fine. 

[bandit]

If you already did this, ignore. Had a hard time finding this, anyway about 5 years ago someone needed this, someone told him do not use it, but it fixed the problem.

I post this on your post , anyway if you did it I will edit post .

 

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Posted January 3, 2013

ok, as promissed, here is a bios update that takes care of cartridge issue

you need to have SDX enabled while flashing (that doesn't mean you have to use it, just have to enable it since all flashers works through sdx cartridge banking register) and after it loads, wait untill normal (the same as it was while loading) screen appears - do not even think of pressing reset button ealier or turning off the machine

after flashing is done, please turn off your computer and make sure that flasher won't be executed at power up (if you're loading it through SIO device)

now you can use your cartridges normally

 

maybe someone could make a better instructions or video on how to do it

i would link them up to incognito page (there is one, just WIP, so i don't have it linked to the main page yet)

 

well, this is all for today

hopefully i'll have some more time tomorrow, so i could finnish with installation manual and overall pages

bios-update.xex 17.13 kB · 156 downloads

bios-update.xex

[Spudster]

On 1/1/2024 at 1:54 AM, Beeblebrox said:

@Spudster one thing. Might be totally irrelevant, but with one pal incognito install I had frequent crashing and lockups. I replaced the gtia and it fix it. Up to that point there was no obvious indication gtia was failing as games like a tree Atariblast! played fine. 

Just swapped with the GTIA in my 1200XL, with no change in behavior.

[Beeblebrox]

3 minutes ago, Spudster said:

Just swapped with the GTIA in my 1200XL, with no change in behavior.

no worries. Good to hear the gtia all good.

[Spudster]

On 1/1/2024 at 8:21 AM, bandit said:

If you already did this, ignore. Had a hard time finding this, anyway about 5 years ago someone needed this, someone told him do not use it, but it fixed the problem.

I post this on your post , anyway if you did it I will edit post .

 

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• Members
• • 3,188 posts
• Location:Lublin, Poland

 

• Report

Posted January 3, 2013

ok, as promissed, here is a bios update that takes care of cartridge issue

you need to have SDX enabled while flashing (that doesn't mean you have to use it, just have to enable it since all flashers works through sdx cartridge banking register) and after it loads, wait untill normal (the same as it was while loading) screen appears - do not even think of pressing reset button ealier or turning off the machine

after flashing is done, please turn off your computer and make sure that flasher won't be executed at power up (if you're loading it through SIO device)

now you can use your cartridges normally

 

maybe someone could make a better instructions or video on how to do it

i would link them up to incognito page (there is one, just WIP, so i don't have it linked to the main page yet)

 

well, this is all for today

hopefully i'll have some more time tomorrow, so i could finnish with installation manual and overall pages

bios-update.xex 17.13 kB · 156 downloads

bios-update.xex 17.13 kB · 0 downloads

Yeah, this made things worse. Not only does this BIOS not work with ANY cartridges, it doesn't play well with my FujiNet, which I use for mounting ATR files. I get 138 or NAKs when trying to access any FujiNet-mounted firmware ATRs via the built in SDX.

 

Tried copying the files to a CF card. Isn't detected in my SIDE2, but does get recognized if I put it in my Incognito. Sadly, if I run the flasher, it can't auto detect my Incognito.

 

So this project is now on hold while I figure out how to work myself out of this mess.

 

I'm starting to feel I'm too goddamn stupid for this hobby.

Edited January 3 by Spudster

[flashjazzcat]

Why are you flashing this? I thought you were already running the FJC firmware.

[Spudster]

8 hours ago, flashjazzcat said:

Why are you flashing this? I thought you were already running the FJC firmware.

Desperation.

[flashjazzcat]

37 minutes ago, Spudster said:

Desperation.

Well, the reason this made things worse is that the original main BIOS you've just flashed is a total mismatch for the PBI BIOS and loader, the former now being totally uninitialised when the machine boots. You might be able to get the machine to boot into an OS pending recovery flashing by disabling the 'SIDE Hardware' in the old setup menu. Failing that, use a TL866 or similar USB EPROM programmer to completely reprogram the PLCC flash ROM.

 

There are no known bugs pertaining to cartridge handling in the most recent versions of my Incognito firmware, so it's likely the problems lie elsewhere. To be honest, I'm surprised the RD4/5 swap wasn't the smoking gun here, although if the installer is capable of such an error, he's probably capable of more besides.

[Spudster]

3 hours ago, flashjazzcat said:

Well, the reason this made things worse is that the original main BIOS you've just flashed is a total mismatch for the PBI BIOS and loader, the former now being totally uninitialised when the machine boots. You might be able to get the machine to boot into an OS pending recovery flashing by disabling the 'SIDE Hardware' in the old setup menu. Failing that, use a TL866 or similar USB EPROM programmer to completely reprogram the PLCC flash ROM.

Makes sense. Thankfully I have a TL866. Just flash INCOG.ROM or INNOGOS.ROM, right?

 

3 hours ago, flashjazzcat said:

There are no known bugs pertaining to cartridge handling in the most recent versions of my Incognito firmware, so it's likely the problems lie elsewhere. To be honest, I'm surprised the RD4/5 swap wasn't the smoking gun here, although if the installer is capable of such an error, he's probably capable of more besides.

I felt the same, and after fixing RD4/RD5, it got 95% of the way there so at least the cart menu loads now. All the other connections look good, so not sure what else I could’ve screwed up during the install. The fact everything works with a U1MB, and all commercial carts work with the Incognito, makes this bewildering. Maybe it’s an issue with the BBPro firmware? If so, do you have a recommended path I suggest Evie check?

[flashjazzcat]

If it's just one or an isolated few carts having problems, then the law of troubleshooting dictates that it's probably the carts themselves. Note that the U1MB and Incognito firmware (mine, that is) are built from the same code base, so the absence of issues with U1MB may be significant. I have absolutely no experience of BBPro.

 

You want to flash either of the 512K images,, yes.

[Spudster]

On 1/3/2024 at 6:19 PM, flashjazzcat said:

If it's just one or an isolated few carts having problems, then the law of troubleshooting dictates that it's probably the carts themselves. Note that the U1MB and Incognito firmware (mine, that is) are built from the same code base, so the absence of issues with U1MB may be significant. I have absolutely no experience of BBPro.

 

You want to flash either of the 512K images,, yes.

Thanks boss. I figured the code was essentially the same between the two machines. This has to be some sort of conflict between Evie's code and yours. I'll ping her and see if she can help chase down the issue.

 

Thanks for the assistance. I was able to flash the current firmware to the chip (those PLCC packages are a PITA to remove!) and it's all back to the original configuration. Didn't even lose my profiles!