+Stephen Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 3 hours ago, Cris1997XX said: Thinking about it, maybe we should get Space Harrier on 7800 first 😂 The 8-bit version we got was awesome! But it used so many tricks specific to the 8-bit's custom chips, it wouldn't be a straight port in any way, coming to the 7800. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cris1997XX Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 13 minutes ago, Stephen said: The 8-bit version we got was awesome! But it used so many tricks specific to the 8-bit's custom chips, it wouldn't be a straight port in any way, coming to the 7800. Yeah, we'd be lucky if the 7800 version even manages to look somewhat like this... 1 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagChris Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 (edited) 32 minutes ago, Cris1997XX said: Yeah, we'd be lucky if the 7800 version even manages to look somewhat like this... Well since the 7800 version of Ballblazer seems to whoop a bit on the XL/XE version...you're probably right. Edited January 3 by JagChris 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Stephen Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 Have neither of you two seen the 81 sprites demo that was recently posted? 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagChris Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 47 minutes ago, Stephen said: Have neither of you two seen the 81 sprites demo that was recently posted? I'm not sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Stephen Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 24 minutes ago, JagChris said: I'm not sure. My bad - it was 86 sprites. Please, go read this thread and watch the video. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagChris Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 Thanks for pointing that demo out. Never seen it. However we're kinda looking pseudo 3D scaling examples. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Defender_2600 Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 2 hours ago, JagChris said: However we're kinda looking pseudo 3D scaling examples. Typically, they're just a sequence of sprites that have different sizes, and that's the strength of the 7800. It doesn't make much sense to compare the 7800 to other 8-bit home systems when it comes to scrolling, background graphics, etc. The 7800 works in a completely different way, it was designed as an arcade machine, generally all you see on screen are sprites, small or giant sprites depending on your needs. esempio_dobkeratops.mp4.565a1467ad55beec727a033a55c0c07c (1).mp4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagChris Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 4 minutes ago, Defender_2600 said: Typically, they're just a sequence of sprites that have different sizes, and that's the strength of the 7800. It doesn't make much sense to compare the 7800 to other 8-bit home systems when it comes to scrolling, background graphics, etc. The 7800 works in a completely different way, it was designed as an arcade machine, generally all you see on screen are sprites, small or giant sprites depending on your needs. Not on a technical.level, a visual level. We are looking at results like what players would have seen back in the 80s-90s. They don't care what's going on under the hood. Extrapolating road rash we are trying to see how motor psychos speed might combine with Ball blazers rolling grid and Space Harriers sprites. End result clues are all we have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Defender_2600 Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 1 hour ago, JagChris said: Not on a technical.level, a visual level. We are looking at results like what players would have seen back in the 80s-90s. They don't care what's going on under the hood. Extrapolating road rash we are trying to see how motor psychos speed might combine with Ball blazers rolling grid and Space Harriers sprites. End result clues are all we have. Nothing personal, but this approach is not very useful and over the years has caused enormous misinformation and even sterile discussions. All the innovation that the 7800 homebrew scene has shown is certainly not based on observation of what had already been produced. If you are really interested in understanding the potential of the 7800, you have to look under the hood, and today we have a wealth of information and tools. Or simply ask or wait for a programmer's opinion. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagChris Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 43 minutes ago, Defender_2600 said: Nothing personal, but this approach is not very useful and over the years has caused enormous misinformation and even sterile discussions. Can you elaborate on how looking at end results of comparable systems isn't useful and leads to sterile discussions? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagChris Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 The sprite sheet was cool @Defender_2600 but that doesn't tell us how fast it can do those things. Or if someone were to reverse engineer road rash and port it for fun how well it would translate over. How well do you think it would translate? What are your thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Defender_2600 Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 5 hours ago, JagChris said: Can you elaborate on how looking at end results of comparable systems isn't useful and leads to sterile discussions? If you don't look under the hood, you can't tell if the system is pushed to its limits or if it's simply bad programming, bad pixel art, insufficient ROM space, etc. Since you talked about scaling, I showed you a sequence of sprites... no magic tricks needed to get Space Harrier on 7800. And about sterile discussions never mind, I wasn't referring to you. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Defender_2600 Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 1 hour ago, JagChris said: The sprite sheet was cool @Defender_2600 but that doesn't tell us how fast it can do those things. Or if someone were to reverse engineer road rash and port it for fun how well it would translate over. How well do you think it would translate? What are your thoughts? 7800 MotorPsycho is already faster, the motorbike has larger dimensions and the vertical resolution of the playing field is much higher than the SMS conversion. I think a well optimized 7800 conversion can run faster than the SMS version. Adding side trees and additional colors is no problem. I'm not a fan of the game though. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrunchyTC Posted January 3 Author Share Posted January 3 22 hours ago, Lostdragon said: Well, one of Carl Mey's first projects as technical director for E. A in 1989,was creating a banked road effect, planned for a brand new NES racing game and as impressive as the road-scaling effect was, banking would be beyond the NES capabilities, so he moved the concept onto the Sega MD and thus Road Rash was born. That is very interesting to know! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg2600 Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 9 hours ago, Defender_2600 said: Typically, they're just a sequence of sprites that have different sizes, and that's the strength of the 7800. It doesn't make much sense to compare the 7800 to other 8-bit home systems when it comes to scrolling, background graphics, etc. The 7800 works in a completely different way, it was designed as an arcade machine, generally all you see on screen are sprites, small or giant sprites depending on your needs. This is an excellent point, on the arcade machine. In fact I just saw the Bubble B thread and that reinforced it. As I said, I don't think you could or should try to exactly reproduce Road Rash on the 7800. It's already been done on 8-bit for one. Also, I don't mind that the 7800 is a fairly different animal than the Japanese consoles, I like that about it. I would also concur that RR is not a game I'd like to see either. I have always died for a more accurate Pole Position II, or for bikes, why not an updated/vastly improved Motor Psycho? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Defender_2600 Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 29 minutes ago, Greg2600 said: I would also concur that RR is not a game I'd like to see either. I have always died for a more accurate Pole Position II, Among many projects, I was working on a graphics update of 7800 Pole Position II which makes a big difference, maybe one day I will find the free time to finish it. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zzip Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 7 hours ago, JagChris said: The sprite sheet was cool @Defender_2600 but that doesn't tell us how fast it can do those things. That sprite sheet says it's from the arcade version of Super Hang-On. Those sprites have 9-10 unique colors each, so on a 7800 they would most likely need to be scaled down to one of the 160 modes on a 7800 because that's where the colors are. likely the same would be true of the Road Rash graphics and the end result might look more like the Game Gear version than the SMS version, which isn't necessarily the worst thing ever: Every head-on driving game on the 7800 uses a 160 mode. so unless someone pulled off some serious wizardry, a 7800 port wouldn't be able to match the resolution of the SMS version. 7 hours ago, JagChris said: Or if someone were to reverse engineer road rash and port it for fun how well it would translate over. A straight port might not work so well, ideally a coder would implement a road rendering system optimized for the 7800's special capabilities One thing to keep in mind is the SMS has two years of development on the 7800 and NES, that's more than a full Moore's Law cycle. It has more RAM onboard. It often outshines the NES and 7800. I don't think its sprite capabilities are as flexible as the 7800 though. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg2600 Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 2 hours ago, Defender_2600 said: Among many projects, I was working on a graphics update of 7800 Pole Position II which makes a big difference, maybe one day I will find the free time to finish it. A sound upgrade too? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Defender_2600 Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 8 minutes ago, Greg2600 said: A sound upgrade too? Not from me, but never say never. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Defender_2600 Posted January 7 Share Posted January 7 On 1/3/2024 at 6:04 PM, zzip said: That sprite sheet says it's from the arcade version of Super Hang-On. Those sprites have 9-10 unique colors each, so on a 7800 they would most likely need to be scaled down to one of the 160 modes on a 7800 because that's where the colors are. likely the same would be true of the Road Rash graphics and the end result might look more like the Game Gear version than the SMS version, which isn't necessarily the worst thing ever: Every head-on driving game on the 7800 uses a 160 mode. so unless someone pulled off some serious wizardry, a 7800 port wouldn't be able to match the resolution of the SMS version. As usual, your post is trivially superficial and hides the goal of belittling the graphics capabilities of the 7800. I can prove you wrong once again, word for word, but I won't do it now. I'll just add that Hang-On Jr. can be made on 7800 in high resolution 320 mode, with about the same colors as the arcade version and with the bikes in 9 colors. Then, the comparison with the Game Gear is ridiculous. And once again, the 160 mode can be very close, almost indistinguishable, or better than the 256 mode (when you have few colors and/or small sprites like the SMS sometimes does or worse the NES). For the 7800, I converted graphics from much more powerful arcade machines than the SMS and often you wouldn't know the difference between the two versions when looking at them on a CRT. Arcade 256 mode VS 7800 160 mode: ________________________________ Arcade 384 mode VS 7800 160 mode: SMS palette example_dobkeratops.mp4.565a1467ad55beec727a033a55c0c07c (1).mp4 Either way, your reputation precedes you: 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg2600 Posted January 7 Share Posted January 7 I used to play the system vs system arm flexing game years ago, there's no point now. Blaming the hardware is pointless. The successes and failures of nearly every console often came down to corporate support, money, marketing, creativity, and vision. At this point, does it matter? I think experimental homebrew, both in hardware and software, has never been more exciting. I just saw a Tomb Raider demo for the damn 32X that looked great! I WANT to see more experimental 7800 homebrew, just like with any other system. All of these old systems had potential, you could do a lot with them, if you did the programming work. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagChris Posted January 7 Share Posted January 7 On 1/3/2024 at 7:56 AM, Greg2600 said: As I said, I don't think you could or should try to exactly reproduce Road Rash on the 7800. Every port of a game is different. This goes without saying. This is just a thought exercise. If you don't like RR then you can imagine this being a thought exercise of how well these things would apply to a pole position. Quote It's already been done on 8-bit for one. Yeah lot of things have already been done on the 8-bit. Pac man. Frenzy. Popeye. PETSCII Robots. etc. Someone should have stopped them! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zzip Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 On 1/6/2024 at 11:38 PM, Defender_2600 said: As usual, your post is trivially superficial and hides the goal of belittling the graphics capabilities of the 7800. I can prove you wrong once again, word for word, but I won't do it now. I'll just add that Hang-On can be made on 7800 in high resolution 320 mode, with about the same colors as the arcade version and with the bikes in 9 colors. Then, the comparison with the Game Gear is ridiculous. I would be happy to be proven wrong, but unless there's code showing this kind of thing in action, I can only go by what the 7800 documentation says about 320 modes, and examples to date. Still mockups don't prove anything. Let's see them in action and we'll talk. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Defender_2600 Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 On 1/8/2024 at 3:50 PM, zzip said: I would be happy to be proven wrong, but unless there's code showing this kind of thing in action, I can only go by what the 7800 documentation says about 320 modes, and examples to date. So as usual you didn't understand anything about the documentation, or explain to us technically in detail why Hang-On Jr. cannot be done in 320 mode, referring to the documentation in question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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