O2: Console or Computer?

[Mindfield]

Okay. I've gotten into this debate with someone over whether or not the Odyssey2 is a console or a computer. He insists it's a computer by definition. I say not. My response to his insistence was thus:

 

Well, as far as I'm concerned, it's a console for several reasons:

 

1. It is not user-programmable without a development kit

2. It does not have any means of external storage - software must be burned on to ROM/PROM/EPROM or executed through a development bridgeboard (if they made such a thing)

3. There are no peripherals available for it with the exception of replacement joysticks for the O2 model with detatchable joysticks.

 

Now, even if there was a cartridge with a programming language on it for the O2, that still wouldn't make it a computer; the 2600 had a BASIC programming cartridge too, and even a keyboard of sorts to be used with it (two "keyboard" (really, keypad) controllers positioned side-by-side) but that still didn't make it a computer.

 

Sure, the O2 box copy bills it as a computer, but that's simply because it has a keyboard -- a hair-splitting definition at best -- however the keyboard in and of itself doesn't allow the O2 to do anything a normal computer can do; given the software that was released for the O2, all it really amounted to was a controller with a lot of buttons -- you could type your guesses in Hangman or Crypto-logic instead of selecting the letters one by one with a joystick. Convenient, yes, but you still couldn't program it on-board with that keyboard. That still had to be done externally.

 

So. Console or computer?

[ubersaurus]

It's as much a computer as the 2600 or astrocade.

[MegaManFan]

The Astrocade comes much closer to being a computer than the 2600, even if you're one of the lucky few with a Spectravision add-on.

[sku_u]

It's a computer. All game systems are computers. They have to be in order to read the code present on the carts/cds.

[MegaManFan]

A Gameboy e-Reader can be a "computer" by that definition.

[Mindfield]

It's a computer.  All game systems are computers.  They have to be in order to read the code present on the carts/cds.

 

But that's a boiled-down technical definition based on the simple fact that it "computes" a generalized set of instructions. By that definition, the higher end HP programmable graphing calculators are computers, too -- they've made games for these things. But there is a particular set of criteria that sets a computer apart from a gaming console, and as far as I'm concerned, the O2 is far more fitting of the console category than computer.

[sku_u]

But that's a boiled-down technical definition based on the simple fact that it "computes" a generalized set of instructions.  By that definition, the higher end HP programmable graphing calculators are computers, too -- they've made games for these things.  But there is a particular set of criteria that sets a computer apart from a gaming console, and as far as I'm concerned, the O2 is far more fitting of the console category than computer.

 

Ultimately, computers compute mathematical formulas and break down chains of 0s and 1s. In essence, a computer is a calculator, so even those calculators you just mentioned are computers.

[Mindfield]

But again this is a bare-essentials definition under which any devices that do more than just sit there are computers. DACs/ADCs, digital cameras, sound and video cards, modems, printers, MP3 players, digital monitors and televisions, digital graphic equalizers, routers, optical mice, and more can technically all be put under this umbrella definition.

 

I'm consider the more esoteric criteria that differentiate home computers from game consoles, disregarding the common, basic elements that can be used in either device (CPU, sound processor, video processor, etc.). For example:

 

Game systems:

- Are not user-programmable

- Can only accept pre-recorded and/or pre-manufactured media (cartridges, cassettes, CD-ROM/GD-ROM/DVD-ROM/Laserdisc)

- Have no means of storage (SRAM for saving games notwithstanding)

- Are strictly designed for entertainment and/or educational purposes (i.e. no practical household or business use)

- Have no peripherals that are not related to entertainment (i.e. joysticks, paddles, or other controller input devices, but no disk drives/hard drives, modems, printers, keyboards, etc. Some consoles do have modems and/or keyboards, such as the PS2, XBox and GameCube, and I recall the Game Boy Printer, but they still fall well within the rest of the above criteria)

 

Computers are:

- User-programmable, often with a built-in BASIC language (or FORTH in the case of the Jupiter Ace) such as most 8-bit machines

- Have a multipurpose operating system built-in that control the main functions of the system (i.e. do more than simply bootstrap cartridge code)

- Serve numerous purposes in addition to entertainment

- Have expansion options (printers, disk drives, hard drives, modems, etc.)

 

And so on.

[sku_u]

By those standards, Odyssey2, Atari 2600, and Bally Astrocade are all computers in some seense because all of them have some form of BASIC programming carts available regardless of how rudimentary they might be and also all have expansion ports. They are also game systems in that they do not have a means of storing information, and are primarly used for entertainment.

[Mindfield]

By those standards, Odyssey2, Atari 2600, and Bally Astrocade are all computers in some seense because all of them have some form of BASIC programming carts available regardless of how rudimentary they might be and also all have expansion ports.  They are also game systems in that they do not have a means of storing information, and are primarly used for entertainment.

 

None of them have dedicated expansion ports. They have cartridge ports, which in a sense can be adapted for use as expansion ports, but they were designed and intended for the insertion of game cartridges.

 

As I said, there has been some level of crossover with some game systems -- yes, they all have some form of BASIC programming-type thing available (even the Intellivision had that with the ECS keyboard) but that still didn't make them real computers in the traditional sense.

[sku_u]

As I said, there has been some level of crossover with some game systems -- yes, they all have some form of BASIC programming-type thing available (even the Intellivision had that with the ECS keyboard) but that still didn't make them real computers in the traditional sense.

 

In the traditional sense, they are computers. They are not computers in the modern sense.

 

The first computers were programmed with swithes to calculate large algorythms. Those wouldn't be computers either by those terms.

 

I'm just having some fun with you

[Nukey Shay]

Nevertheless, the word "console" exists. And since many didn't bill themselves as "user-programmable" when they were designed, I think it's safe to put all those into that catagory.

[Ze_ro]

Technically, the system "computes" things, therefor it's a computer

 

That's crappy logic of course, since the meaning of "computer" as "something that computes" is far too vague.

 

The O2 is a console.

 

--Zero

[desiv]

OK, so they are all computers..

 

Consoles are just a subset. A type of computer.

 

The real question should be:

 

What is a console?

And is the O2 a console, or just a computer that plays games? (ala a C64 or Atari400, albeit much weaker.. :-)

 

And remember, just when you think you've got it figured out, I'm going to ask about the Colecovision and the Adam. :-)

 

My gut on this one..

 

A console is a special purpose computer, designed to be attached to a Television and designed primarily for gaming.

 

Now, issues with my definition. You could argue it includes the C64, Amiga, Atari 400/800, and others.. Because although they perform business functions, they are considered by many designed for gaming. That might not be wrong.. The Amiga was an AWESOME computer, but to be honest, at least the Amiga 500 was designed for gaming and to be hooked to a TV, so I think I might consider it a console. Although, if you think (it might be) it was designed PRIMARILY to be hooked to a monitor and just could also be hooked to a TV, maybe not...

 

Other ideas? Definitions???

 

Either way, the O2 is a console, as a subset of the computer. :-)

 

desiv

 

p.s. The ZX81 is a computer since it was NOT designed PRIMARILY for gaming, even tho it was designed PRIMARILY (only) for a TV set. IMHO..

[Mindfield]

The ADAM would be a computer. It has expansion options, peripherals available (disk drives, hard drives, modems, memory expansion, etc.), business software (other than the built-in word processor, which is more like a text processor). It was user programmable, and was used for a great many things. Although it is capable of playing all Colecovision and purpose-built ADAM games, it was aimed squarely at the children's educational market, and its commercials touted its word processing abilities and educational software. However, I've been on BBSs run by ADAMs, and I've seen the numerous peripherals that are available for it -- it's quite remarkable, actually, that they did so much with the ADAM, even if most of it was independently done long after Coleco abandoned it.

 

Also, you can't judge a computer or console's status as one or the other by what it connects to for a display; pretty well all the old 8-bit computers (Apple notwithstanding) were designed to be connected to a television, though most of them did have RGB monitor connections.

 

The Colecovision, however, is still a console. It does have a purpose-built expansion port (mostly used by the 2600 adapter) but it cannot be converted to a computer in the same manner as the ADAM already is one. Ditto Intellivision and its ECS keyboard to an even more limited degree. There are still no other expansion options available for the Inty other than that keyboard (and the Intellivoice, of course) and it can't be used as a computer as we know it.

[Ze_ro]

There are a number of devices which blur the lines between console and computer... The Commodore 64GS and Atari XEGS are both computers turned into consoles, and can be used for either function. Both were marketed towards the gaming community though. However, as much as these systems could be called consoles, you wouldn't extend the term to include the Atari 8-bits and C-64's as consoles as well, despite the fact that they have essentially identical hardware.

 

The Dreamcast will happy run NetBSD, and given a network connection, mouse, and keyboard, will happily function as a computer. The PS2 Linux bundle is in the same category. You would certainly never call the Dreamcast or PS2 a computer though.

 

In the end, this whole debate is rather futile. Po-tay-to, po-tah-to.

 

--Zero

[Ze_ro]

Bloody hell... why can't we delete our own posts around here?

 

-Zero

[desiv]

:-) You haven't seen the Colecovision+Adam have ya? :-)

 

Search for "Colecovision Expansion Module 3". There's not much difference between the Adam and the Colecovision with Module 3.

 

But you could argue that the module is really almost a standalone Adam computer and that the Adam is a seperate computer with a Colecovision built-in.

 

And I didn't say it's what was designed to be hooked to a TV. I said what was designed to be hooked to a TV AND primarily for games. That's why I specifically mention the ZX81 not being a console, even tho it was designed to be hooked to a TV. And I don't consider Vectrex or handhelds as "consoles" because they don't attach to TVs.

 

It's a fine line. If I hook up a keyboard to my PS2 (which I don't have) and browse the Internet, is it no longer a console? If I use Linux on it? It should have anything to do with what software is available after. It should be (IMHO) what is was primarily designed for. The PS2 is a console because it was designed to primarily play games on a TV. Same with the XBox. If I took a mini-ITX in a tiny case, did video-out, and loaded it with just games, and sold it, it's a console. If someone takes that box and loads a full Linux dist on it with Openoffice, it's still a console. Now, if I loaded the same box and put a full Linux dist on it with Openoffice and some games and sold it that way, it's a no longer a console.

 

But all of those variations are computers.

 

Is the XEGS a game system or computer? With or without keyboard? I'd say it's a console, because it was designed PRIMARILY for games and for display on a TV, even tho it's hardware is nearly identical to some Atari computers, but they weren't "intended" to be consoles, XEGS was,

 

Other non-console game playing machines?

Vectrex : Standalone with it's own monitor.

ColecoAdam : Marketed for games AND Word Processing.

Amiga/C64 : Tough call, but I believe they were intended to be productivity AND game machines, at least at the time they were released.

 

Consoles?

Amiga CDTV & CD32: Marketed for games only.

Colecovision : Marketed for games only.

PS1, PS2, Xbox,N64 : Same as above..

2600,O2,NES, etc.. : Same as above

 

desiv

 

Also, my Adam is sitting under my Apple//e in the computer room. My O2 is sitting next to my 7800 in front of the TV.

My Vectrex is at work right now. :-)

[desiv]

The PS2 Linux bundle is in the same category.

 

Here's how weird I am..

 

I would call the PS2 Linux bundle a computer, because it's being sold as such, even tho I wouldn't consider the PS2 retail a computer, even with a keyboard add on.

 

I think "console" is a "marketecture" term, and as a result, it's the intent of the market that makes the difference, not the hardware/software.

 

desiv

[Nukey Shay]

I think "console" is a "marketecture" term' date=' and as a result, it's the intent of the market that makes the difference, not the hardware/software.[/quote']

Exactly...whether we treat it as a full computer and not just a gaming platform is our own choice. It's still a console to most people.

 

So everything is a console, and everything is a computer. It's entirely up to you how you use it.

[Phosphor Dot Fossils]

I love the Odyssey2.

 

But it's just a console.

 

The Odyssey3 was going to be aimed more at being a computer, though more in the Mattel Aquarius sense of the word "computer."

[Ze_ro]

You people are putting way too much effort into this discussion.

 

--Zero

[Rob Mitchell]

In the traditional sense, they are computers.  They are not computers in the modern sense.

 

In an even older tradition .. before World War II .. dictionaries defined Computer as someone who did the equivalent of mental labor as they did mathematical calculations and completed mathematical or logarithmic tables.

 

A Console is a center where functions happen. So before there were video game consoles and boom boxes .. there were TV consoles, stereo music, entertainment consoles, juke box consoles. So a console is where control functions are collected and centered for use. Another example: Studio Sound Mixer console. Manufacturing has control consoles. So a desktop with the spaghetti of cabled periperal attachments is a computer console.

 

Now Nolan Bushnell considered game players interacting with the VCS 2600 as a low level of computer programming. You turn a knob or push a stick .. and the computer is set to respond to your input and generate an output on the screen. But even with this kind of loose definition of programming, the transistor based PONGs are computers in that they are responding to paddle inputs with a specific algorithm and an output result on the TV.

 

So all these things are computers .. so call them what they are .. Video Game consoles with computer brains.

 

Rob Mitchell, Atlanta, GA

[ianoid]

Clearly it's a Compusole.

 

ian

[BassGuitari]

3. There are no peripherals available for it with the exception of replacement joysticks for the O2 model with detatchable joysticks.

 

It has The Voice speech-synthesis module.

 

And Odyssey 2 is what is commonly thought of as a console.