Tempest Posted March 28 Share Posted March 28 I've hooked my Atari 800 up to a nice little 14" PVM monitor that I had laying around and while the image looked great, I noticed that there was a lot of black border around the image. When showing a solid blue background (like in BASIC) there had to be a good inch and a half on each side. Using the blue background as a guide, I filled the entire screen, but then I noticed that the Incognito menu (FJC firmware) was cut off on the top and bottom. Games don't seem to be cut off, just the Incognito menu. I adjusted the vertical size until the menu was no longer cut off (the horizontal was still ok), but now I wonder if my image no longer has the correct aspect ratio since it's wider than it is tall. Will this be ok or will games look off? Is the Incognito menu abnormally tall or something (maybe adjusted for PAL screens)? The other thing I noticed is now that I have he image going to the sides of the screen I don't see the overscan artifacts on the side (this always bothered me in games like Moon Patrol). I see this as a good thing, but are there any games that made use of this area that I'm not going to see now that it's cut off? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rybags Posted March 28 Share Posted March 28 (edited) The usual case with NTSC is that there's no non-display in the vertical plane. With PAL we usually see at least just under a character height worth at top and bottom. (use SE. 4,3,4 to set a border colour first so you can clearly see the offscreen areas) Also the usual with NTSC was that you'd lose at least part of the first character (and also often with PAL) - that's why we have the 2 character margin (which probably could be just 1 for 99% of cases) Plus/4 has almost identical default screen architecture though I think their character start is slightly to the right vs ours. If you have an adjustable monitor I'd advise leave a couple of pixels at left/right for border. The usually always black nondisplay at top/bottom, similar though you want to leave a little more top/bottom with PAL. In most cases games didn't really use the display outside the normal 320 horizontal though in some cases it can be useful to see a bit more. All that said though, if you differ too much from your video system's norm, you might end up with an aspect ratio that you're not used to. Edited March 28 by Rybags Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tempest Posted March 28 Author Share Posted March 28 Does the Incognito loader screen display for PAL height or NTSC height? I ask because so far it's the only thing that has displayed that high on my monitor. Maybe @flashjazzcat can answer that? I don't mind the top few lines of the Incongnito loader being cut off as it's just eye candy if it means I I can completely fill my screen top to bottom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted March 28 Share Posted March 28 3 minutes ago, Tempest said: Does the Incognito loader screen display for PAL height or NTSC height? I ask because so far it's the only thing that has displayed that high on my monitor. Maybe @flashjazzcat can answer that? I don't mind the top few lines of the Incongnito loader being cut off as it's just eye candy if it means I I can completely fill my screen top to bottom. Which firmware version are you running? I redesigned the UI a year or two back and the loader and setup menu are dramatically less tall than in prior versions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tempest Posted March 28 Author Share Posted March 28 6 minutes ago, flashjazzcat said: Which firmware version are you running? I redesigned the UI a year or two back and the loader and setup menu are dramatically less tall than in prior versions. The most current one from about a year or so ago (the redesigned one). Like I said, if I expand the image so the blue BASIC screen fills the screen completely the top and bottom of the Incognitom SIDE loader screen are cut off a bit (not a ton, but several lines). The sides seem to be ok. I can take a picture tonight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted March 28 Share Posted March 28 (edited) The loader is certainly still a few scan lines taller than the setup menu and the standard graphics 0 display, but not by much. I would expect most NTSC users to have a small amount of black border top and bottom of the standard display anyway. The redesign was done expressly to address the NTSC overscan issue, and I haven't heard of any other problems since that was done. Here's the firmware (the Incognito loader now has exactly the same geometry as that of SIDE3) in NTSC aspect ratio, shown alongside the standard display: Here's the same firmware running on a real NTSC 800XL: The monitor is using stock picture geometry (RGB signal from VBXE), and nothing is cut off. Edited March 28 by flashjazzcat 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjedavison Posted March 28 Share Posted March 28 12 minutes ago, Tempest said: The most current one from about a year or so ago (the redesigned one). Like I said, if I expand the image so the blue BASIC screen fills the screen completely the top and bottom of the Incognitom SIDE loader screen are cut off a bit (not a ton, but several lines). The sides seem to be ok. I can take a picture tonight. You ideally want to a bit of a border all the way around the basic "blue screen" display, as the A8 is capable of changing the colour of (and, with some clever programming, displaying stuff in) the overscan border. I don't know the exact proportions/pixel values offhand, but on most TVs it was a fairly large margin at the top and bottom and pretty thin ones either side. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tempest Posted March 28 Author Share Posted March 28 1 minute ago, pjedavison said: You ideally want to a bit of a border all the way around the basic "blue screen" display, as the A8 is capable of changing the colour of (and, with some clever programming, displaying stuff in) the overscan border. I don't know the exact proportions/pixel values offhand, but on most TVs it was a fairly large margin at the top and bottom and pretty thin ones either side. I think you're right on the proportions. Looking at some screenshots on AM I'm seeing large borders on the top and bottom and very small ones on the sides. Although I'm not sure if I want any border on the sides because you get those weird artifacts in some Atari games (Moon Patrol and Track & Field come to mind). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted March 28 Share Posted March 28 1 minute ago, Tempest said: Although I'm not sure if I want any border on the sides because you get those weird artifacts in some Atari games (Moon Patrol and Track & Field come to mind). That's what Mytek's 'VGate' was designed to overcome, but I have yet to see any junk in the borders of the LG in the photos when the picture is set to 4:3 (and A8 displays stretched sideways to 16:9 AR are an eyesore and an abomination). 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tempest Posted March 28 Author Share Posted March 28 1 minute ago, flashjazzcat said: That's what Mytek's 'VGate' was designed to overcome, but I have yet to see any junk in the borders of the LG in the photos when the picture is set to 4:3 (and A8 displays stretched sideways to 16:9 AR are an eyesore and an abomination). First I've heard of that, I'll have to check it out. Based on what I'm hearing I think the Incognito screen dimensions are correct and I need to dial my H and V width back a bit. I just wanted to make sure that I wasn't demforming the picture by having a larger border on the top than on the sides. I'm used to adjusting the monitor size for more modern systems using the 240p suite so filling the screen completely is normal on those systems. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted March 28 Share Posted March 28 I think I just got lucky with the LGs since they don't display much horizontal border, so effectively they do the same job as the VGate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rybags Posted March 28 Share Posted March 28 (edited) Realistically you'd want 2 character heights additional top and bottom of the default text screen to cater for games, demos and software you're likely to come across. The system can actually do 3 character heights top/bottom additional to the default (6 total = 30 for 240 scanlines) Generally it's demos that will use a lot of the potential screen area where games will be a bit more conservative. On PAL - IMO there's no reason really to not have the entire 240 scanlines visible and most CRTs will be that way. Edited March 28 by Rybags Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beeblebrox Posted March 28 Share Posted March 28 (edited) 2 hours ago, Tempest said: First I've heard of that, I'll have to check it out. I've installed UGV's in many of my XEs and 800XLs. (XE's benefit greatly as in my experience with stock PAL XE video circuits they ain't the best. This is a bonus alongside the Vgate functionality. I believe Sophia2 has Vgate functionality too(?) See here: I am in the UK and buy them from a very reputable Ebay seller for £15. Bargain. All you need is a socketed GTIA chip and a few wires and you can hook it up to the existing Din5 Bear in mind this was the first time I had installed one and these days I do it in a far neater way than in that post heh heh. Edited March 28 by Beeblebrox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted March 28 Share Posted March 28 Are there any photos of the unwanted overscan crap which V-Gate is intended to 'gate' out? As I've said: the LG M227WD and M197WD don't show enough horizontal overscan area to expose any unwanted peripheral graphical data anyway (you see no more horizontal border area than you probably would on a well-adjusted CRT in 4:3 mode), so V-Gate was always totally redundant for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beeblebrox Posted March 28 Share Posted March 28 (edited) 6 minutes ago, flashjazzcat said: Are there any photos of the unwanted overscan crap which V-Gate is intended to 'gate' out? As I've said: the LG M227WD and M197WD don't show enough horizontal overscan area to expose any unwanted peripheral graphical data anyway (you see no more horizontal border area than you probably would on a well-adjusted CRT in 4:3 mode), so V-Gate was always totally redundant for me. I too have a LG M227WD. On my stock and non-UGV enhanced A8s I've often seen crap when running the Alley Dog demo, with the segment towards the end with the pets. Will see if I can take a pic sometime. So this segment (which is being cleaned up by UGV): ...on my non UGV A8s will normally have DLI crap at either edge of the screen, even on my LG M227WD with 16:9 ratio Next time I run the demo I'll snap a pic. Edited March 28 by Beeblebrox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted March 28 Share Posted March 28 (edited) 22 minutes ago, Beeblebrox said: On my stock and non-UGV enhanced A8s I've often seen crap when running the Alley Dog demo, with the segment towards the end with the pets. Thanks - I'll download it and have a look. Depending on the results, my next question will be is the effect any different from what one would have seen on a CRT back in the 80s or 90s, and therefore not the 'fault' of the display device but the software itself. That would imply that the purpose of V-Gate isn't to compensate for the overscan area visible specifically on LCDs, but to simply mask graphical data which would always otherwise be visible anyway. I'll have a look, anyway. EDIT: Yes, the effect is visible in Altirra (I'm filming a customer machine on the desk at the moment, so can't test on real hardware just now): So clearly a software matter rather than a display issue. Doesn't really bother me so I'd be reluctant to install hardware in order to hide it. Indeed, fifty per cent of what's there is still visible on the V-Gate photo. Edited March 28 by flashjazzcat 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tempest Posted March 28 Author Share Posted March 28 Btw I'm dealing with a crt monitor if that helps any. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Stephen Posted March 28 Share Posted March 28 I use ACP.xex to setup my displays, as it has nicely defined corners on the display. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tempest Posted March 28 Author Share Posted March 28 5 minutes ago, Stephen said: I use ACP.xex to setup my displays, as it has nicely defined corners on the display. Where can I get that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beeblebrox Posted March 28 Share Posted March 28 5 minutes ago, Tempest said: Where can I get that? acp.xex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beeblebrox Posted March 28 Share Posted March 28 just looking on Youtube here is an example of the crap you can see on that segment of the Alleydog demo on non UGV A8s: A still: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted March 28 Share Posted March 28 35 minutes ago, Beeblebrox said: just looking on Youtube here is an example of the crap you can see on that segment of the Alleydog demo on non UGV A8s I'll have a look on the LG in a bit. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beeblebrox Posted March 28 Share Posted March 28 (edited) ... I seem to recall it's pretty bad running off my Incognito'd 800 off the LG. Edited March 28 by Beeblebrox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted March 28 Share Posted March 28 (edited) This is obviously all subjective since this doesn't bother me in the least (real hardware, VBXE, LG M227WD) and doesn't strike me as something in need of 'correction' (and - as I say - a portion of it is still visible on the gated display). In any case, it was great to be obliged to sit through this amazing demo from start to finish. Extremely impressive, and the music was particularly top-notch. Edited March 28 by flashjazzcat 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woj Posted March 28 Share Posted March 28 Just to complete the info - Sophia 2 also has the vgate option, but also does not always cut everything I'd imagine to be cut. Another example to test, One screen I remember where I could imagine vgate in action is the PoP title screen. And another one is IK EE. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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