+mytek Posted May 14 Share Posted May 14 I just purchased one of these and tested it on my 576NUC+ S-Video output. AliExpress LINK Thus far my tests with my Atari using NTSC S-Video are every bit as good as my original RetroTink 2x. PROs Very inexpensive as compared to the RetroTink 2x (about $100 cheaper) Comes with a nice case at no extra charge Uses standard (not mini) HDMI port - no adapter required CONs Although it works great on my Atari NTSC S-Video output it's not as clean on my C64 PAL system with improved video upgrade board Apparently it's not so good with PAL video, has what look like horizontal scan lines, which can move and/or fade in & out ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Note1: the following video and still images are with an NTSC source. Note2: I made a comment about the "Cool World" still image not looking quite right, but in retrospect I think it was fine, and the colors are correct. Some pics for comparison. Had to do an angle shot so that the moire effect caused by the camera and LCD interaction wasn't as evident. AV Test: 576NUC+ S-Video Output directly into S-Video input on VIZIO monitor HDMI Test: 576NUC+ S-Video Output plugged into RetroScaler 2x S-Video input with RetroScaler 2x HDMI output directly plugged into HDMI input on VIZIO monitor ------------------------------------------------------------------------- I have another one coming from AliExpress, so I would suggest that people wait for my feedback on it before committing, just in case the quality varies. 11 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marauder666 Posted May 14 Share Posted May 14 They dont do PAL60 output. Other than that ok for cheap. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+MrFish Posted May 14 Share Posted May 14 For reference, here's some discussion about the subject from 2021. Obviously there is quite a price difference between then and now; but information about the device capabilities is still relevant (although I'm not sure that the RetroScaler wouldn't have had some firmware updates between then and now as well). Also, the RetroTink 2x Mini has not been available for purchase for a long time (several years); therefore, the lowest-cost RetroTink option is 2x the cost of the 2x Mini (2x Pro @ $139.99). Anyway, here's what was being said/shown 3 years ago on the subject: RetroScaler 2x / RetroTink 2x Mini comparison RetroScaler 2x - Problem on PAL system (from same thread) 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+mytek Posted May 14 Author Share Posted May 14 8 minutes ago, MrFish said: For reference, here's some discussion about the subject from 2021. Obviously there is quite a price difference between then and now; but information about the device capabilities is still relevant (although I'm not sure that the RetroScaler wouldn't have had some firmware updates between then and now as well). Also, the RetroTink 2x Mini has not been available for purchase for a long time (several years); therefore, the lowest-cost RetroTink option is 2x the cost of the 2x Mini (2x Pro @ $139.99). Anyway, here's what was being said/shown 3 years ago on the subject: RetroScaler 2x / RetroTink 2x Mini comparison RetroScaler 2x - Problem on PAL system (from same thread) Well that 2nd link possibly explains the problem I was seeing on my C64, since it was PAL not NTSC. However NTSC on my Atari looks every bit as good as if I feed it straight into the S-Video input on my VIZIO monitor, which produces the best video quality of any monitor I own. And I was going to do a direct comparison to my RetroTink 2x, but the damn mini-HDMI got torn off the PCB when I twisted the cable. I absolutely hate the use of mini connectors, and especially SMD ones when they aren't even required to be that small for this application. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+MrFish Posted May 14 Share Posted May 14 7 minutes ago, mytek said: Well that 2nd link possibly explains the problem I was seeing on my C64, since it was PAL not NTSC. However NTSC on my Atari looks every bit as good... Yes, the discussion was centering around the RetroScaler on PAL systems in particular. 7 minutes ago, mytek said: And I was going to do a direct comparison to my RetroTink 2x, but the damn mini-HDMI got torn off the PCB when I twisted the cable. I absolutely hate the use of mini connectors, and especially SMD ones when they aren't even required to be that small for this application. Yikes... I'm not fond of the trend towards mini HDMI connectors like that either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+mytek Posted May 14 Author Share Posted May 14 20 minutes ago, MrFish said: Yikes... I'm not fond of the trend towards mini HDMI connectors like that either. Yes that was a sad day when the connector literally ripped itself off the PCB - really pissed me off I can see when space is at a premium to go SMD and mini, but not for this application. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+MrFish Posted May 14 Share Posted May 14 2 hours ago, mytek said: the connector literally ripped itself off the PCB Gives new meaning to the term rip-off. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marauder666 Posted May 14 Share Posted May 14 I'll try with my PAL 600XL into a PAL LCD TV. Although, my S-video VCS looked good without any of those lines. PAL60 did have the lines, and incorrectly decoded colour too. Suspect, its seeing 60hz and trying to decode as NTSC colour. Pics to follow tomorrow. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Stephen Posted May 14 Share Posted May 14 Does it pass the "Flicker Term" test? A string of ____________________ on shitty devices will look like _-_-_-_-_-_ due to the odd flicker mode used. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+mytek Posted May 14 Author Share Posted May 14 54 minutes ago, Stephen said: Does it pass the "Flicker Term" test? A string of ____________________ on shitty devices will look like _-_-_-_-_-_ due to the odd flicker mode used. Hi Stephen, I just now tried running FlickerTerm80 V0.51 and it says it can't find the R: Handler. Since I don't have an 850 or PR Connection is there a version that maybe incorporates an R-Verter compatible handler instead that I can get to run? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted May 14 Share Posted May 14 You can use an R:BIN instead, it will run but you will have to set half duplex in terminal, as there is no device 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+mytek Posted May 14 Author Share Posted May 14 Thanks DOC, I figured it out just before you posted and just loaded RS232.com from the ATR, and then relaunched the app and just enabled the chat line to be able to type in stuff. But even before doing so, I could see that the RetroScaler 2x was correctly interpreting the Atari's video output because of the flickering that was occurring. Here's the result from entering underline and hyphen characters in the one line chat window. Looks correct 👍 EDIT: Also I noticed that the background was a very dark brown on my VIZIO monitor and black on my LG monitor. Probably just different contrast settings between the two TVs. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+mytek Posted May 14 Author Share Posted May 14 So I checked once again at the Retrotink website, and the mini version is out of stock and has been for quite sometime. So this is the cheapest alternative that would work with an S-Video input that is stocked. Buy LINK This is also the basis for saying that the RetroScaler 2x would be $100 cheaper. From what I've discovered, if you're running an NTSC machine with S-Video, the RetroScaler 2x looks every bit as good as non-converted S-Video going into a high quality monitor. However for you PAL folks I wouldn't suggest buying the RetroScaler 2x, since you'll just be disappointed, having weird horizontal scan lines. So go for the RetroTink 2x-Pro instead. And unlike many of the other cheap alternative converters, both the Retrotink 2x and the RetroScaler 2x do a true interlaced conversion so that programs such as FlickerTerm80 and 480i games and demos display properly. MemoPad 480i by @Rybags Stellar Shuttle 480i by @Rybags EDIT: Correction... it appears that interlace mode works better on a real monitor in some cases. When I took a good look at the MemoPad 480i output on HDMI vs true S-Video, the HDMI was a bit fuzzy especially for the smaller text (8x10, 8x8, 8x6 pixels). The Stellar Shuttle 480i wasn't bad, but still sharper on true S-Video. So bottom line is that although 480i mode does work with the RetroScaler 2x, it's compromised. However there really isn't a whole lot of stuff using this mode, so this might not be an issue if you are an NTSC user not looking for, or needing crystal clear 480i results. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marauder666 Posted May 15 Share Posted May 15 My PAL 600XL into a PAL TV gets those lines. Never noticed then on my PAL VCS, probably need to test again at some point. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+mytek Posted May 15 Author Share Posted May 15 5 hours ago, marauder666 said: My PAL 600XL into a PAL TV gets those lines. Never noticed then on my PAL VCS, probably need to test again at some point. Thanks for checking. Yep my PAL C64 does as well. I also have a NTSC C64, so I'll check that too. I suspect that one will work fine with this converter same as my NTSC Atari did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marauder666 Posted May 15 Share Posted May 15 It seems like it doesnt take into account the colour phase reversal on the alternate lines (maybe?) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+CharlieChaplin Posted May 15 Share Posted May 15 My perfect solution to convert A8 composite or S-Video to HDMI: https://www.amazon.de/Mcbazel-Composite-S-Video-Adapter-Konverter/dp/B07WYJSSKZ/ref=sr_1_1_sspa? Works extremely well with PAL machines (and according to the docs should also work with NTSC). Tested last weekend and it has no(ne) to approx. 1ms timing lag. But make sure to NOT connect composite and S-Video at the same time. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted May 15 Share Posted May 15 wow they really jacked the price up on that converter, it used to be 19! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+mytek Posted May 16 Author Share Posted May 16 (edited) So I got my NTSC C64 operational today and ran a couple of tests. And it looks very clean with no pesky horizontal lines like it had with PAL. So the RetroScaler 2x is definitely an NTSC only solution for HDMI output, and appears to be a multi-system solution. I finally found a camera and setting that gave me a straight on clean picture from my VIZIO monitor. It was a GoPro Hero 10 in photo mode. My only complaint is that the color saturation wasn't as good as reality. EDIT: actually the image still doesn't fully show how clean and saturated the color really is in reality - it's always a challenge to capture this taking a pic of an LCD screen. Also I think I used the wrong ISO setting in my camera, since the entire image is grainy. This C64 has the equivalent to my UGV board for the Atari installed, so it produces very good S-Video which is a pre-requisite to seeing good results from a converter. Garbage In = Garbage Out as they say. Edited May 16 by mytek Added note about captured image quality 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgdgagdae Posted May 16 Share Posted May 16 Is there any device like this that can take an RF input? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pseudografx Posted May 16 Share Posted May 16 (edited) I had purchased RetroScaler 2x a couple years ago and while it was not too bad, it showed very prominent horizontal lines in the blue shades. I then got a RetroTink 2x Mini, which did not have the issue. I think I already posted it some time ago, but here is the comparison: Retroscaler RetroTink P.S.: Oh, just noticed that you mentioned the scanline issue in one of the posts, so yeah, this is what it looks like with my PAL Atari 800XE. Edited May 16 by pseudografx 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+mytek Posted May 16 Author Share Posted May 16 2 minutes ago, pseudografx said: I had purchased RetroScaler 2x a couple years ago and while it was not too bad, it showed very prominent horizontal lines in the blue shades. I then got a RetroTink 2x Mini, which did not have the issue. I think I already posted it some time ago, but here is the comparison: Retroscaler RetroTink That only appears to be an issue with PAL. NTSC will not have those lines as we've been discussing. So yes PAL users will want to avoid this particular converter. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+mytek Posted May 16 Author Share Posted May 16 11 hours ago, dgdgagdae said: Is there any device like this that can take an RF input? Even if that were a thing, that would produce some pretty ugly results No if you're going to do this properly, you need the best S-Video you can get out of your Atari or alternative system for conversion. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pseudografx Posted May 16 Share Posted May 16 Btw. one other issue with both RetroScaler and RetroTink 2x Mini is that sometimes when changing Display List the upscaler loses sync and the image signal is lost for a moment. On some TVs/monitors it makes the screen to turn off and on, causing up to a few seconds of not displaying anything. This occurs with my 8-bit and my 2600 in some games/demos. As far as I know, this issue is fixed on the RetroTink 5x Pro (and 4K), but those are pretty expensive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beeblebrox Posted May 16 Share Posted May 16 (edited) I had one of these Retroscaler 2x Retrotink copies when I first got back into the A8 scene in 2021. I was knew to it all and at the time it allowed me to hook up to my then limited displays. I had no complaints but soon ditched these types of external boxes after getting my LG Flatron Digital TV and the likes of Sophia2, VBXE RGB, UGV and just plain ol Svideo. My LG TV has all the inputs so suits me. I just didn't want another powered box with loadsa cabling cluttering up my already trashed desk space heh heh. Nice to see it being put through it's paces in this thread though. IIRC I paid between £55 and £70 for it in 2021. Build quality and output, etc was pretty good from what I recall. Edited May 16 by Beeblebrox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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