TrogdarRobusto Posted June 1 Share Posted June 1 (edited) Hello, I wanted to start a thread to discuss Atari’s position on trademarks in relation to potential use by members of the AtariAge community. I know there has been a lot of discussion and conjecture about how Atari will behave in this area and what we have done in the past. Neither Al nor I are on the legal team and this isn’t legal advice, but we can shed some light on the topic. Our legal team assures us that it is always trying to balance the importance of protecting Atari and its IP with the passion of our fans and their desire to create games. Atari is actively working on a plan to allow developers to use the Atari platform logos when they are creating and selling products, as long as they use the logo and copyright line correctly (this would now include Intellivision). There typically will not be a cost associated with the use of Atari marks, and a simple license agreement would need to be signed. The materials are a work-in-progress and we are still formalizing the plan and updating our terms of service. I know this has been a specific area of interest and concern in the homebrew community, and I am sure we will get some useful feedback as we implement the plan. We can use this thread to have that discussion when the time comes. We have also been working with people who have been improperly selling games that Atari owns, or games based on or referencing Atari IP, to bring them under agreements so they can do so legally. In the past perhaps these individuals would have received a cease and desist (and perhaps they still do) and that may have been the end of it. It doesn’t mean everyone and anyone will get a license, but our posture is that we are willing to work with people under a proper agreement, and you don’t have to move heaps of units for that to happen. This is also true for business entities selling products using our trademarks or copyrights without our permission. For reasons I expect are self-evident, we can’t have companies selling products with our intellectual property on or in them without our permission. But if a company wants to sell products that are high-quality and the community appreciates them, sometimes (not always) our licensing team may bring them into the fold as an authorized licensee. The sellers will sign an agreement and carry on selling. Some products are even added to the Atari web site. Edited June 1 by TrogdarRobusto 6 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrogdarRobusto Posted June 1 Author Share Posted June 1 I do want to call out that our team is continually scouring the internet for non-licensed products, of which there is an endless stream, and we’ve engaged vendors who specialize in this work of protecting brands and their IPs. We can announce a new game and we will see counterfeit t-shirts for sale within 24 hours. We have an obligation to our shareholders and fans to go after counterfeit products and other trademark infringements, as these infringing products have a deleterious impact not just on Atari, but on our licensees who work hard everyday to properly and legally bring products to consumers. As part of that enforcement effort, some fan activity may incorrectly get flagged. Anytime the system thinks it sees someone using an Atari trademark improperly (like selling something directly, or using the logo as an endorsement for products and services) it will shoot off a flare. An unfortunate by-product of this effort is that sometimes activity that Atari may not normally ask to be taken down will get flagged and a takedown notice or cease and desist letter will be sent. When that happens we endeavor to resolve it amicably and quickly. We will also try to use those situations to better clarify what is and is not allowed. Additionally, Albert is now involved in this review process, and he will help verify that products that are flagged are legitimate violations in order to reduce the number of false positives received by community members. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrogdarRobusto Posted June 1 Author Share Posted June 1 (edited) One example of how the current team at Atari approaches this topic differently from prior leadership is the situation regarding atari2600.org. That was a site run by @Andrew Davie that provided resources to 2600 developers. It was a passion project and a valuable resource to the community. Under the prior administration, the site was caught up in a sweep of domain names, and Andrew received a cease and desist notice for using an URL with “Atari 2600” in it. Andrew knows the story better than I do, but he was unable to resolve the situation with Atari and ended up not only giving up the domain name, he also shuttered the site. We regret the outcome and apologize to Andrew, that situation could have been handled better and it’s the kind of matter that the current team at Atari is actively working to handle differently. We believe an active developer community working on Atari platforms is incredibly important to the health of the community and the long-term success of the brand and the company. Hopefully that comes through, and we know that we need to prove it day-in and day-out through our actions. Edited June 1 by TrogdarRobusto 10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Sauron Posted June 1 Share Posted June 1 Thanks for discussing this topic with the community, @TrogdarRobusto. This was one of the big topics in the "Atari buys AA" thread that had been brought up and discussed before. Forgive me if I'm missing the answer to this question, but what if someone wants to develop a game using Atari IP for one of the classic consoles or computers? Is there a process in place for asking for permission for this? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrogdarRobusto Posted June 1 Author Share Posted June 1 (edited) 2 hours ago, Sauron said: Forgive me if I'm missing the answer to this question, but what if someone wants to develop a game using Atari IP for one of the classic consoles or computers? Is there a process in place for asking for permission for this? Nothing published at the moment, but yes, really we mostly work with developers using our IP ... that is more or less our games business. If you have a prospective project maybe bring it to @Albert to start the process? Edited June 1 by TrogdarRobusto 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RodLightning Posted June 1 Share Posted June 1 Thanks for taking time to create this thread. Upon reading about Andrew Davie's site, I just visited https://atari2600.org/ just out of curiosity. Please forgive if this has been discussed in detail elsewhere, but the content at that address is all in French and seems to be a lot of blog posting about Luminous Productions. This is indeed a shame for anyone stumbling across the domain and finding it full of content having nothing at all to do with Atari or 2600 development. Why not send a cease and desist to the current owner? A Whois lookup unfortunately yields no easy info on who currently owns it. One way of partially making things right would be to get that particular domain pointing back to something useful. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred_M Posted June 1 Share Posted June 1 (edited) Thank you @TrogdarRobusto for giving more information about the trademark and Atari's position. The example of 2600.org is very valuable, so I would like to know what Atari's position is about the name Atari in domain names. It is no secret that I run atarimuseum.nl. I own this domain name for over 20 years and use it to show and list my collection (so I can use it anywhere to see which stuff I already have, I bought too many double items in the past), but also to publish Atari's history in the Benelux countries (Belgium, Netherlands, Luxembourg). Many Atari friends helped me and even some old employees of Atari Netherlands (Warner and Tramiel era) have contributed and donated. Mainly old paperwork from the Benelux countries can be viewed or downloaded. Nothing after the Tramiel years can be found on my website. My website does not make any money, it only costs money (no commercial activities, no advertisements) like with so many Atari fans all over the world. Because of the stories about the old management I removed the Atari fuji from my logo a few years ago and replaced it with something that looks a bit like the Atari logo in the colors red, white and blue (the Dutch flag), even though I have never received any notice from Atari of some kind. The internet is full of websites with Atari in the domain name, so I am eager to know if I should be worried Edited June 1 by Fred_M 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidD Posted June 1 Share Posted June 1 6 hours ago, TrogdarRobusto said: Under the prior administration, the site was caught up in a sweep of domain names, and Andrew received a cease and desist notice for using an URL with “Atari 2600” in it. Andrew knows the story better than I do, but he was unable to resolve the situation with Atari and ended up not only giving up the domain name, he also shuttered the site. We regret the outcome and apologize to Andrew, that situation could have been handled better and it’s the kind of matter that the current team at Atari is actively working to handle differently. If the current Atari owns the domain name, any chance of giving it back to him? 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CPUWIZ Posted June 1 Share Posted June 1 37 minutes ago, DavidD said: If the current Atari owns the domain name, any chance of giving it back to him? If you guys really want to read old pages from Andrew, you can always use the WaybackMachine. QB -> https://web.archive.org/web/20030220000138/http://www.atari2600.org/ 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Starwander Posted June 2 Share Posted June 2 It is certainly very nice of you to post this information but I can tell you the experience from the community does not reflect the amicable and rational thoughts that you put forward today. Collectors are the ones that have been keeping the "Atari" brand going by producing goods and equipment to allow for the production of new games and accessories and repair parts for the old systems. I feel like your company really hasn't considered the value that this community provides for both your name brand, sales and your longevity. The reason I say this is multiple community members have been hit by Red Point the company you have chosen to protect your intellectual property with requests to take down products they have listed. I personally have been targeted by this company simply for the usage of the term "Atari 7800 & Atari 2600" in the listing. The products in question don't use any of your IP, don't use your trademark, and they don't compete with any product that you currently sell. Despite this your company that you contracted with listed the listings as infractions of your trademarks. Multiple emails to your company went unanswered both asking for additional information about what your position was but also a possible licensing pathway for other products. I had to argue with eBay for several months before they allowed the listings to be restored. The item in question are reproduction Atari 7800 game cartridge shells. These are sold to individuals that make homebrew games which in turn keeps your system alive by keeping people interested in your technology and library of games which makes you money. After this event your company through red point went at me again for using the term "Atari 2600" on a listing on eBay for a label. The label was for the "Video Game Center" a storage system specifically designed to store Atari 2600 game systems and games. It's unfortunately not possible to advertise this particular product without using the term "Atari 2600" I was in full compliance with how eBay wants it to be described and I used the term, "Compatible With" at the end of the description. Despite this it was still listed as flagged by your company and I have not been able to get listing returned. Using the term Atari is not inappropriate when used underneath nominative fair usage. This allows individuals to use the trademark of another company to list the product if it is essential to describe the function of the product. It does not give the person the right to act as if the product is produced or licensed by the company but it does give them the right to use that title. Honestly I just wish your company would stop attacking collectors and people of the community that are supporting your consoles. People like myself that produce repair parts that you don't produce yourself keep your consoles alive and keep people using them and therefore keep people interested in your IP catalog and future products. I would like nothing better for your company to produce a whole catalog of repair parts and accessories again but until you do somebody has to fill that void to keep people interested in your products. So I'm going to ask you on behalf of the entire collecting community please stop attacking people that really enjoy and cherish your company. I want your company to be very successful as I think it would be great to have Atari back producing games but I can tell you the actions your company is taken against me have significantly disenfranchised myself and I can tell you that I'm not the only one. I implore you to be either more selective about the individuals you target or provide a concise method of licensing your IP and trademarks. I also wish there was a way that people could contact your company and actually get answers when situations like this come up. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrogdarRobusto Posted June 2 Author Share Posted June 2 19 hours ago, RodLightning said: Upon reading about Andrew Davie's site, I just visited https://atari2600.org/ just out of curiosity. Please forgive if this has been discussed in detail elsewhere, but the content at that address is all in French and seems to be a lot of blog posting about Luminous Productions. I've asked our legal team to look into that ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrogdarRobusto Posted June 2 Author Share Posted June 2 17 hours ago, DavidD said: If the current Atari owns the domain name, any chance of giving it back to him? We do not ... which is maddening Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrogdarRobusto Posted June 2 Author Share Posted June 2 34 minutes ago, Starwander said: I implore you to be either more selective about the individuals you target or provide a concise method of licensing your IP and trademarks. I also wish there was a way that people could contact your company and actually get answers when situations like this come up. Please do understand that we agree, without the community's sustained interest in Atari and Atari platforms over the past few decades the renaissance we are credited with going through now would have been very unlikely, if not impossible. We are trying to improve how we go about it. It isn't easy, frankly, because there is so much out there to deal with. And licensing will never be as simple as self-service ... not all requests will receive an automatic green light. But simplifying the process and providing more transparency is a goal. And now that Atari has an active presence on AtariAge I expect this forum will be a useful resource for us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrogdarRobusto Posted June 2 Author Share Posted June 2 (edited) 20 hours ago, Fred_M said: The internet is full of websites with Atari in the domain name, so I am eager to know if I should be worried I would not be worried, what you are describing, at least to me, is exactly the kind of site we want to have flourish. This is something I am going to continue to as about internally as well. The two things that I sense people get in trouble for are a) selling things with Atari trademarks on them, b) selling IP that they do not have the rights to sell. Not my area of expertise, but that is where I see alarm bells go off. Edited June 2 by TrogdarRobusto 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PowerDubs Posted June 2 Share Posted June 2 This seems fishy to me- https://www.cdkeys.com/pc/system-shock-pc-steam 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrogdarRobusto Posted June 2 Author Share Posted June 2 4 minutes ago, PowerDubs said: This seems fishy to me- https://www.cdkeys.com/pc/system-shock-pc-steam we will look Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred_M Posted June 2 Share Posted June 2 (edited) 36 minutes ago, TrogdarRobusto said: I would not be worried, what you are describing, at least to me, is exactly the kind of site we want to have flourish. This is something I am going to continue to as about internally as well. The two things that I sense people get in trouble for are a) selling things with Atari trademarks on them, b) selling IP that they do not have the rights to sell. Not my area of expertise, but that is where I see alarm bells go off. Thank you @TrogdarRobusto I am glad to hear this 👍 You are always welcome to take a look at the site yourself 😉 Edited June 2 by Fred_M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r_chase Posted June 2 Share Posted June 2 I remain cautiously optimistic about Atari's future as a brand, but I was afraid some accidents might happen considering the nature of automated flagging systems and it can work almost too well, especially when it comes to bigger companies (not gonna name any names btw). In any case, I do hope that when things happen, it'll be resolved quickly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cardboard76 Posted June 2 Share Posted June 2 55 minutes ago, r_chase said: I remain cautiously optimistic about Atari's future as a brand, but I was afraid some accidents might happen considering the nature of automated flagging systems and it can work almost too well, especially when it comes to bigger companies (not gonna name any names btw). In any case, I do hope that when things happen, it'll be resolved quickly. yeah, i'm also cautiously optimistic about Atari's brand future. i also do agree that there's some kinks to be ironed out with automated flagging systems. in any given case where the system incorrectly flags something, i hope that the case is sorted quickly and without fuss. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrogdarRobusto Posted June 2 Author Share Posted June 2 4 hours ago, r_chase said: I was afraid some accidents might happen considering the nature of automated flagging systems and it can work almost too well, You're understanding of the inaccuracy of these systems is accurate certainly they catch a lot of copyright infringement, they are goods at that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrogdarRobusto Posted June 2 Author Share Posted June 2 4 hours ago, Fred_M said: Thank you @TrogdarRobusto I am glad to hear this 👍 You are always welcome to take a look at the site yourself 😉 I will. I have spent some time on AtariMania and spoken with the folks that run that site. If it is OK for me to maintain open relations with both the French And the Dutch at the same time I'd love to connect and learn more about your site and your priorities going forward. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CPUWIZ Posted June 3 Share Posted June 3 10 hours ago, Starwander said: The item in question are reproduction Atari 7800 game cartridge shells. Since most of the work is done by filters, which are often not very smart, there are ways around it. I know it shouldn't have to be like this, but you can probably use something like "Game Cartridge Shells for Atari systems 2600/7800.", the search engine will still pick up "Atari" and "7800" but not "Atari 7800" in quotes, which is usually what a trademark search would look like. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidD Posted June 3 Share Posted June 3 14 hours ago, TrogdarRobusto said: We do not ... which is maddening Yeah, that's annoying -- but hey, it never hurts to ask! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Starwander Posted June 3 Share Posted June 3 12 hours ago, CPUWIZ said: Since most of the work is done by filters, which are often not very smart, there are ways around it. I know it shouldn't have to be like this, but you can probably use something like "Game Cartridge Shells for Atari systems 2600/7800.", the search engine will still pick up "Atari" and "7800" but not "Atari 7800" in quotes, which is usually what a trademark search would look like. Thank you for the suggestion. I still think it would be nice to not have to have work around and instead have a system in place that has more discrimination. It would also be nice to have a system in place that if you do get flagged can actually talk to somebody and they will actually answer their emails rather than what's going on right now which is the flag your listing and they do not respond to any communication. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Starwander Posted June 3 Share Posted June 3 22 hours ago, TrogdarRobusto said: Please do understand that we agree, without the community's sustained interest in Atari and Atari platforms over the past few decades the renaissance we are credited with going through now would have been very unlikely, if not impossible. We are trying to improve how we go about it. It isn't easy, frankly, because there is so much out there to deal with. And licensing will never be as simple as self-service ... not all requests will receive an automatic green light. But simplifying the process and providing more transparency is a goal. And now that Atari has an active presence on AtariAge I expect this forum will be a useful resource for us. Do you think there is a estimated ETA on when your team will craft a method of dealing with items that were inappropriately flagged by red points? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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