IGN ranks the Atari 7800 over the Sega Master System! Do you agree?

[John Stamos Mullet]

12 minutes ago, jeremiahjt said:

If the main criteria is impact on the industry, the 7800 ProSystem was the first system to bring us backwards compatibility, right? Backwards compatibility is something the game industry still deals with today. Is there anything the Master System brought us as that is as big of a deal as backwards compatibility?

 

As far the directional pad, you people saying it has never caused you a problem must be very precise in your movements. I will not even bother with the extra weapons in the Wonder Boy games because they get used accidentally long before I need them.

What I’ve found with the SMS pads is that a big part of this is the version of the pad you’re using. The original release ones made in Japan had no issues, and were really well built. These are the ones that you could attach the screw in mini-stick in the center. 
 

the later made models made in Taiwan and especially the later ones made in China with no screw hole attachment in the center of the Dpad were garbage. 

[Zoyous]

22 minutes ago, John Stamos Mullet said:

What I’ve found with the SMS pads is that a big part of this is the version of the pad you’re using. The original release ones made in Japan had no issues, and were really well built. These are the ones that you could attach the screw in mini-stick in the center. 
 

the later made models made in Taiwan and especially the later ones made in China with no screw hole attachment in the center of the Dpad were garbage. 

Ah, that's good to know. I've only ever used the original ones with the mini-stick button in the center. The later ones don't even look right to me without the little central button.

[phoenixdownita]

50 minutes ago, John Stamos Mullet said:

What I’ve found with the SMS pads is that a big part of this is the version of the pad you’re using. The original release ones made in Japan had no issues, and were really well built. These are the ones that you could attach the screw in mini-stick in the center. 
 

the later made models made in Taiwan and especially the later ones made in China with no screw hole attachment in the center of the Dpad were garbage. 

I remember seeing sms pads the had the screw hole “filled” with a black plastic tab and others with no hole at all.

 

Like 

vs

 

Do you happen to know which is which?

Edited June 24 by phoenixdownita

[phoenixdownita]

Btw the topic was about the relative ranking which in that video as already mentioned was:

 

1. NES
2. 2600
3. PS2
4. SNES
5. Genesis
6. Xbox360
7. PSX
8. Dreamcast
9. N64
10. Wii
11. Xbox
12. Colecovision
13. Turbographics-16
14. Intellivision
15. PS3
16. Gamecube
17. 7800
18. Saturn
19. NeoGeo
20. Master System 
21. Odyssey 2
22. 3DO
23. 5200
24. Jaguar
25. Odyssey 

granted the 7800 and sms are not too far apart but I believe the relative order is unexpected and imho both should be below Saturn and Neogeo.

The Wii should be much higher if nothing else as it started the “actigame” trend followed by xb360 Kinect and PS3 Move (the ice cream controllers), but those both came out after 2009 (in 2010 to be precise as a response to the unexpected success of the Wii) yet still I think the impact the Wiialready had on casual gamers is a little lost in that ranking.

Edited June 24 by phoenixdownita

[+GoldenWheels]

JMO, but I never bought the next gen system to play the last gens games. Backwards compatibility was buy bait for cheap parents IMO. "Jimmy, you can still play Frostbite too! Dad, we still have the 2600...of course I can". Daisy chaining the RFs of two systems together isn't hard.

 

And if you didn't already own the system that the next gen system was compatible to....a library of stale, old games is a PLUS to helping you decide between a 7800 and SMS?

 

(You could also argue being beholden to the last gens specs means you are holding your next generation system back. Whether it is adding cost or limiting advancement)

 

 

[John Stamos Mullet]

53 minutes ago, phoenixdownita said:

I remember seeing sms pads the had the screw hole “filled” with a black plastic tab and others with no hole at all.

 

Like 

vs

 

Do you happen to know which is which?

There are at least 4 revisions of these, probably more.

 

the original Made in Japan version has the cord coming out of the top and the rubbery nub in the center of the Dpad that can be unscrewed to add the mini stick. 
 

there were two revisions (at least) that were made in Taiwan, one with the removable bib still, and one where there is no hole to screw in the mini stick. 
 

then there are the later made in china model that are smooth, no nub/stick hole, and they are terrible quality compared to the others. These are also the most common to find/buy on the secondary market still.

[phoenixdownita]

2 hours ago, phoenixdownita said:

Btw the topic was about the relative ranking which in that video as already mentioned was:

 

1. NES
2. 2600
3. PS2
4. SNES
5. Genesis
6. Xbox360
7. PSX
8. Dreamcast
9. N64
10. Wii
11. Xbox
12. Colecovision
13. Turbographics-16
14. Intellivision
15. PS3
16. Gamecube
17. 7800
18. Saturn
19. NeoGeo
20. Master System 
21. Odyssey 2
22. 3DO
23. 5200
24. Jaguar
25. Odyssey 

granted the 7800 and sms are not too far apart but I believe the relative order is unexpected and imho both should be below Saturn and Neogeo.

The Wii should be much higher if nothing else as it started the “actigame” trend followed by xb360 Kinect and PS3 Move (the ice cream controllers), but those both came out after 2009 (in 2010 to be precise as a response to the unexpected success of the Wii) yet still I think the impact the Wiialready had on casual gamers is a little lost in that ranking.

And if you have some time to take a look, these are among the best games on sms

(Some more, but longer video)

If you have an EU version

(the gameplays is overrated but the port is quite competent if ambitious and however reduced aka no money bubbles etc…, this needs to run at 50hz)

Edited June 24 by phoenixdownita

[Lord_of_Sipan]

4 hours ago, GoldenWheels said:

JMO, but I never bought the next gen system to play the last gens games. Backwards compatibility was buy bait for cheap parents IMO.

 

 

I think this must have really been something that changed over time. I was born in 1991 and I got a late model SNES at the same time my brother got an N64 probably in 1997 or 98. While we didn’t have a PlayStation, we knew kids who did including the older boys down the street who had “naughty” games like Twisted Metal. When the PS2 came out with the capability to play the enormous back catalog of games from the PlayStation it was a huge selling point not only for me and my brother but a lot of other kids we knew who had owned non-PS1 consoles. When the playstation 2 came out there was still a lot of hype around game series like Tomb Raider, Twisted Metal, and Crash Badicoot and being able to play those on the new console instead of having to wait for the next-gen entry in each series was cool.

 

This is completely anecdotal as it’s just based on my own childhood memories and I’m sure things like this varied between countries and regions.

[+GoldLeader]

6 hours ago, phoenixdownita said:

Btw the topic was about the relative ranking which in that video as already mentioned was:

 

1. NES
2. 2600
3. PS2
4. SNES
5. Genesis
6. Xbox360
7. PSX
8. Dreamcast
9. N64
10. Wii
11. Xbox
12. Colecovision
13. Turbographics-16
14. Intellivision
15. PS3
16. Gamecube
17. 7800
18. Saturn
19. NeoGeo
20. Master System 
21. Odyssey 2
22. 3DO
23. 5200
24. Jaguar
25. Odyssey 

 

 

I (sincerely) Hope that the further this thing goes,  the more people realize that this is an Opinion Piece.   Unlike something based on Factual Data (i.e.,  Worldwide sales or some such metric) which could actually be right or wrong.

 

(My opinion)

 

Look at this list!!

 

XBOX ahead of 7800??   That's outrageous!!   (It's even ahead of the Mighty ColecoVision??  On what Planet?   On which continent?)

 

 

I have 2 XBOXes and 3 7800s so I know (I know My Opinion)...

 

From what I remember from looking at the XBOX controllers,  the D-Pad is in the wrong spot,  whereas the 7800 has Arcade Joysticks available (Like my beloved custom Ambidextrous Edladdin), Atari Joysticks, and Europads with the D-Pad in the right spot!  Plus I have 2 different types of NES Controllers converted for 7800 use!

 

And (True Story),  so  feel free to laugh at me;   I've played a lot of 7800 in my lifetime (and I LOVE IT!!) and even though I do have 2 of them (one a gift from my former roommate, one a $5 Yard sale purchase),  and a stack of games,  etc.   I've Never even plugged in an XBOX!  I don't even know if (either of) mine still work!  And I'm not sure if they're fun or not.  I mean They couldn't be that great or I'm sure I would have played one by now.  

 

 

Don't worry I'll play it sometime...

 

[+Defender_2600]

9 hours ago, phoenixdownita said:

you have an EU version

(the gameplays is overrated but the port is quite competent if ambitious and however reduced aka no money bubbles etc…, this needs to run at 50hz)

 

 

Forgive my sincerity, but that comment made me smile.

 

Let me show an example of the 7800's underestimated potential, it was a real home arcade system:

 

 

-----------------------------------------------

 

Another:

 

 

 

 

 

[NE146]

I mean unrealized potential is great and all, but the bottom line is it was never realized when it counted. If you were looking for a modern shooter like R-Type back in 1988, the SMS is what delivered the goods! 

Meanwhile if you went to the Kay-Bee to buy 7800 games you could find Centipede and Ms. Pacman.. which looked really sad next to NES titles like Mike Tysons Punchout and Metroid. Just saying!

 

(I love the 7800 btw of course).

 

 

Edited Tuesday at 02:11 AM by NE146

[Razzie.P]

4 hours ago, GoldLeader said:

XBOX ahead of 7800??   That's outrageous!!   (It's even ahead of the Mighty ColecoVision??  On what Planet?   On which continent?)

 

 

I have 2 XBOXes and 3 7800s so I know (I know My Opinion)...

 

From what I remember from looking at the XBOX controllers,  the D-Pad is in the wrong spot,  whereas the 7800 has Arcade Joysticks available (Like my beloved custom Ambidextrous Edladdin), Atari Joysticks, and Europads with the D-Pad in the right spot!  Plus I have 2 different types of NES Controllers converted for 7800 use!

 

 

 

Yeah but... this thing!

 

 

 

[+GoldLeader]

7 minutes ago, Razzie.P said:

Yeah but... this thing!

 

 

 

All those buttons...But will it play Dark Cavern?     ** (Mic drop!)**

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Pretty neato actually!   I should buy one and maybe add a new wing onto the house so I have somewhere to put it.

[+Defender_2600]

41 minutes ago, NE146 said:

I mean unrealized potential is great and all, but the bottom line is it was never realized when it counted. If you were looking for a modern shooter like R-Type back in 1988, the SMS is what delivered the goods! 

Meanwhile if you went to the Kay-Bee to buy 7800 games you could find Centipede and Ms. Pacman.. which looked really sad next to NES titles like Mike Tysons Punchout and Metroid. Just saying!

 

(I love the 7800 btw of course).

 

 

 

True, although you would soon be rather disappointed when comparing it to the R-Type version of the PC Engine.

 

The library of the time is out of the question but, strictly speaking hardware, the 7800 had a truly revolutionary architecture in 1984, and this makes it extremely fascinating today, it can do some things better than the Master System, with many large sprites on screen and no flickering, everything rock solid, and better palette and sound (audio chip in cartridge). True 8-bit arcade experience at home.

 

P.S. By the way, the 7800 is officially back in production.

[phoenixdownita]

27 minutes ago, Defender_2600 said:

 

True, although you would soon be rather disappointed when comparing it to the R-Type version of the PC Engine.

 

The library of the time is out of the question but, strictly speaking hardware, the 7800 had a truly revolutionary architecture in 1984, and this makes it extremely fascinating today, it can do some things better than the Master System, with many large sprites on screen and no flickering, everything rock solid, and better palette and sound (audio chip in cartridge). True 8-bit arcade experience at home.

 

P.S. By the way, the 7800 is officially back in production.

C’mon .. from their launch date until 2009 (date of the IGN  video) there’s quite little of “True 8-bit arcade yada yada yada”, on both.

Not sure what the PCE has got to do with anything.

Even having xenon ii running was a feature … it was a flagship game for the Amiga and Atari ST, the fact that they managed a port back then is its own achievement.

 

And of untapped potential we get enough on the Jag sub forum, if with 30y of better tools and knowledge you can make the 7800 display 1080p today stays largely irrelevant imho.

I am not sure what was that revolutionary, I assume it’s Maria, cause the rest is what it is … ascribing better audio thanks to the cart ext is also out there, during the actual commercial lifetime only 2 titles even bothered with pokey and believe me the Mario games begged for better audio which leads me to believe it added cost and ate up the profits, and as you know the JP sms had integrated fm audio in addition to psg … made no difference really.

[Razzie.P]

51 minutes ago, GoldLeader said:

All those buttons...But will it play Dark Cavern?     ** (Mic drop!)**

 

 

 

 

 

Yep!  You can install an emulator on the XBox and go nuts.

 

 

Dang... now I kinda want configure something like that for Battlezone, Combat, and River Raid.

 

... and Food Fight.  I dunno why, but that seems stupid enough to be fun.

[+Defender_2600]

8 hours ago, phoenixdownita said:

C’mon .. from their launch date until 2009 (date of the IGN  video) there’s quite little of “True 8-bit arcade yada yada yada”, on both.

Not sure what the PCE has got to do with anything.

Even having xenon ii running was a feature … it was a flagship game for the Amiga and Atari ST, the fact that they managed a port back then is its own achievement.

 

And of untapped potential we get enough on the Jag sub forum, if with 30y of better tools and knowledge you can make the 7800 display 1080p today stays largely irrelevant imho.

I am not sure what was that revolutionary, I assume it’s Maria, cause the rest is what it is … ascribing better audio thanks to the cart ext is also out there, during the actual commercial lifetime only 2 titles even bothered with pokey and believe me the Mario games begged for better audio which leads me to believe it added cost and ate up the profits, and as you know the JP sms had integrated fm audio in addition to psg … made no difference really.

 

So Xenon II on Master System would have some merit even though it's slow as a snail, and the 7800 wouldn't offer a real arcade experience until 2009...

 

 

 

You're generalizing, I disagree. My premise was "The library of the time is out of the question but, strictly speaking hardware...". I simply see that there are too many people who still continue to talk about 7800 hardware without having the necessary knowledge. And there are still too many people who seem to ignore that today the 7800 is represented above all by the homebrew library, sound included. And forget about the excellent new development tools if you're trying to say that the current 7800 games couldn't have been made with the knowledge and technology of the time. It was really just a problem of financial resources.

 

To get an idea, let's take as an example SMB3 (3 megabit cartridge + custom MMC3 for animated tiles, extra RAM, diagonal scrolling, etc), the game's total development and marketing budget was $25.8 million ($59 million adjusted for inflation) and the team consisted of more than ten people who took over two years to complete the game. And we could continue with SMB, SMB2, The Legend of Zelda, etc. The 7800, although it had powerful hardware, couldn't compete with the NES, and to say the competition was unequal is an understatement. A 7800 third-party game was typically programmed by a single man who in several cases also worked on the graphics, having only a few months for development and for a fee of around US$25K (for example, 7800 Toki). With such resources available, there wasn't much that could be done.

 

About the 2600+ (I like it) I was being relatively ironic, but I also wanted to say that we no longer live in the past, for better or for worse. Today the new 7800 games sold in the AA store are official releases that at some point will have to be considered part of the 7800 official library. And it doesn't matter much whether the video output is 720p, Maria's real resolution is still 320 or 160 x 240, exactly like in the screenshots I showed above, without any tricks. And of course, it is the GPU that makes the hardware unique, in fact Maria was designed and works like an arcade machine.

 

 

 

[+GoldLeader]

2 hours ago, Razzie.P said:

Yep!  You can install an emulator on the XBox and go nuts.

 

 

Dang... now I kinda want configure something like that for Battlezone, Combat, and River Raid.

 

... and Food Fight.  I dunno why, but that seems stupid enough to be fun.

 

Well,

 

(True story)  I used to own a Food Fight Arcade game.

 

(Not true story)  And I would always say,  "It's Rad and all,  but what this game needs is flight simulator controls and a gas pedal!"   😅

 

 

 

 

You're one of a kind @Razzie.P!    Like one of God's own prototypes...He broke you and then  he made the mold.  Please don't ever change!

 

 

[+jgkspsx]

3 hours ago, Defender_2600 said:

better palette and sound (audio chip in cartridge)

[...]

3 hours ago, Defender_2600 said:

P.S. By the way, the 7800 is officially back in production.

So how do them Pokeys work with the 2600+, anyhow?

[+Defender_2600]

57 minutes ago, jgkspsx said:

So how do them Pokeys work with the 2600+, anyhow?

 

POKEY and YM Sound works perfectly:

 

Experimental 2600+ Firmware and Dumper

 

Huge kudos for the excellent work done by @RevEng and @batari, awesome integration by @raz0red, wonderful coordination by @Ben from Plaion!  Super impressive release, here are @Trebor testing results:

 

 

[+TwentySixHundred]

9 hours ago, GoldLeader said:

 

I (sincerely) Hope that the further this thing goes,  the more people realize that this is an Opinion Piece.   Unlike something based on Factual Data (i.e.,  Worldwide sales or some such metric) which could actually be right or wrong.

 

 

 

It's completely different to what my list looks like haha. It's definitely opinion based within IGN's small office

[DeathAdderSF]

"IGN ranks the Atari 7800 over the Sega Master System!"

 

^ That's some BULLshit.

Edited Tuesday at 07:34 AM by DeathAdderSF
Apparently I like editing my posts. It's a bad [?] habit, but it's a hard habit to break.

[+GoldenWheels]

14 hours ago, Lord_of_Sipan said:

I think this must have really been something that changed over time. I was born in 1991 and I got a late model SNES at the same time my brother got an N64 probably in 1997 or 98. While we didn’t have a PlayStation, we knew kids who did including the older boys down the street who had “naughty” games like Twisted Metal. When the PS2 came out with the capability to play the enormous back catalog of games from the PlayStation it was a huge selling point not only for me and my brother but a lot of other kids we knew who had owned non-PS1 consoles. When the playstation 2 came out there was still a lot of hype around game series like Tomb Raider, Twisted Metal, and Crash Badicoot and being able to play those on the new console instead of having to wait for the next-gen entry in each series was cool.

 

This is completely anecdotal as it’s just based on my own childhood memories and I’m sure things like this varied between countries and regions.

I agree, and I think it very likely got more important as the quality, length, and complexity of games grew. As games grew from basic score experiences to true adventures with collectibles and multiple endings etc etc, I think the value went up in being able to still play them easily.

 

But IMO even if released on time the 7800 backwards compatibility would have been meh as a selling feature, a big "who cares?". Released as late as it was? Almost seems comical to point to this as a real plus.

[+Defender_2600]

37 minutes ago, GoldenWheels said:

But IMO even if released on time the 7800 backwards compatibility would have been meh as a selling feature, a big "who cares?".

 

The 2600 had a huge library, and innovative games were still being released in 1984 as Pitfall II, H.E.R.O., Crystal Castles, Decathlon, Mr. Do!'s Castle, and other. 

 

"who cares?"

[+jgkspsx]

4 hours ago, TwentySixHundred said:

It's completely different to what my list looks like haha. It's definitely opinion based within IGN's small office

Again, this is fifteen years old, more retro than the 2600 was when I was a kid.