Question about Atari 1050s

[DistantStar001]

I have 2 Atari 1050 drives and 2 810s, and compared to the 810s, the 1050s are... I believe the polite term is temperamental. Constantly needing adjusting. Could never get the speed just right. They're always just a touch too slow or too fast. Disks written in one simply won't read in the other. And so on...  But the kicker is they leave visible wear marks on disks. Is that really normal? And regardless if it is, is there a way to stop it? Floppies are getting harder to come by and I don't want to damage the ones that I have.

 

My 810s by contrast are just solid. the most I ever needed to do with them is clean one of the read heads. As such, they've become my preferred Atari drives. But on the other hand, the 1050s are double density, so they offer more storage than the 810s.

 

I guess what I'm asking is, is there a way to get my 1050s to play nice and not be so rough with disks? I'd be more willing to work with them if I wasn't afraid of them damaging perfectly good floppies.

[Geister]

Have you cleaned the head?

[+MrFish]

22 minutes ago, DistantStar001 said:

the 1050s are double density

Actually, if they're stock drives, then they're dual-density (or also called enhanced-density), which is different than double-density. They can be upgraded to support double-density, of course -- which I'm not assuming hasn't already been done; but, just to be clear on the subject.

 

[DistantStar001]

14 minutes ago, Geister said:

Have you cleaned the head?

Yes. Both of them. Repeatedly. They still leave marks.

[DistantStar001]

12 minutes ago, MrFish said:

Actually, if they're stock drives, then they're dual-density (or also called enhanced-density), which is different than double-density. They can be upgraded to support double-density, of course -- which I'm not assuming hasn't already been done; but, just to be clear on the subject.

 

No idea. I stopped messing with them until I could figure out the wear marks they were leaving in disks. The good news is that the 810s will still read them flawlessly despite the marks.

[Geister]

How are you cleaning the heads?  Are you wasting time with those cleaning disks or have you removed the top cover and used cotton buds and 99% alcohol until the head squeaks?  I had a 1050 that used to gouge disks, but until I really put some elbow grease on it, it never cleaned up to the point were it stopped ruining disks.

[DistantStar001]

35 minutes ago, Geister said:

How are you cleaning the heads?  Are you wasting time with those cleaning disks or have you removed the top cover and used cotton buds and 99% alcohol until the head squeaks?  I had a 1050 that used to gouge disks, but until I really put some elbow grease on it, it never cleaned up to the point were it stopped ruining disks.

Alcohol and cotton swabs mostly. Sometimes Windex if I hit something particularly stubborn. I don't have any cleaning disks. I guess I can I give them another scrub.

[DistantStar001]

Alright. Both drives seem to be working again... For the moment anyway. I reclined both drive heads. Drive 1 seemed to have something on it, but drive 2 was still squeaky clean. Ironic, since drive 2 is the one that gives me the most problems. 

 

Both are passing the 150 diagnostics. But Drive 2 failed every test on its second run through. I checked it again, and that time only the 0-track failed. So I ran the 0-track diagnostic alone and was told to move the sensor backwards. Okay, except it was already as far back as it could go. Then again, it's a replacement sensor so I cut a bit off the spacer plastic (the little thing that the taller back screw goes into) and now the 0-track passes without fail. 

 

I still have no idea why it was saying that the mother was too fast on the second test. But it's working now. For how long? I can't say.

 

I also wrote a new DOS 3 disk (with DOS on both sides)  on a clean floppy to see if they were still leaving marks. Drive 1 is good, but drive 2 left a little something on one side. I flipped the disk and it's coming up clean.

 

If there are any other tips or good caretaking advice for these drives I'm more than open to it.

 

Still think I prefer my 810s though. They just look epic. Wonder if there's a double density mod for them?

[Beeblebrox]

1 hour ago, DistantStar001 said:

Still think I prefer my 810s though. They just look epic. Wonder if there's a double density mod for them

Whilst not double density, there is the happy mod for the 810 : https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/134611587647?

Edited July 11 by Beeblebrox

[spookt]

If the 1050s are leaving marks on the disk surface the felt pad which sits above the head and applies slight pressure may have failed. They can be repaired with various materials. I used the felt pressure pads from cassettes back in the day. 

[TZJB]

6 hours ago, DistantStar001 said:

Alright. Both drives seem to be working again... For the moment anyway. I reclined both drive heads. Drive 1 seemed to have something on it, but drive 2 was still squeaky clean. Ironic, since drive 2 is the one that gives me the most problems. 

 

Both are passing the 150 diagnostics. But Drive 2 failed every test on its second run through. I checked it again, and that time only the 0-track failed. So I ran the 0-track diagnostic alone and was told to move the sensor backwards. Okay, except it was already as far back as it could go. Then again, it's a replacement sensor so I cut a bit off the spacer plastic (the little thing that the taller back screw goes into) and now the 0-track passes without fail. 

 

I still have no idea why it was saying that the mother was too fast on the second test. But it's working now. For how long? I can't say.

 

I also wrote a new DOS 3 disk (with DOS on both sides)  on a clean floppy to see if they were still leaving marks. Drive 1 is good, but drive 2 left a little something on one side. I flipped the disk and it's coming up clean.

 

If there are any other tips or good caretaking advice for these drives I'm more than open to it.

 

Still think I prefer my 810s though. They just look epic. Wonder if there's a double density mod for them?

 

I am glad that you have remedied most of the problems with your 1050 disk drives.

 

I have several 1050 disk drives and they all seem fine. I also have a couple of 810 that I never use mainly due to the fact that they are single sided single density only, and a higher disk capacity is more useful, especially with some commercial disks being enhanced density.

 

I would suggest that you do not use DOS 3 for testing (or for anything) as DOS 2.0S or DOS 2.5 should be the mimimum standard due to compatibility issues, with the latter superceding DOS 3. I often use MyDOS 4.53 which is DOS 2 compatible but lot more powerful, and also supports true double density and higher capacities up to 16MB.

 

The other thing I check for is that the head rails are clean and free-moving. They can also be lubricated with a light oil or silicone grease to make them quieter. Do not use WD40 as it is a moisture displacer and will dry out and make the head stick (I tried it).

 

Regarding the marks left on your disks by the drive heads, could you perhaps upload a picture of the marks and the heads? I assume you are using Side 0 of the disk with the disk label upwards?

 

Incidentally, if you were unaware, Side 1 of the disk can be set to write a disk if it is notched on the other side and flipped over, or a write override switch is installed. This flip side of a disk can of course be read without such features if it has been pre-written.

 

Regarding speed variance, this could be due to the drive belt being loose and slipping. If it is original, like the rest of the drive, it is 40 years old probably and may need treatment or a replacement.

 

As to 810 drive enhancements, there is an addon that gives the 810 true double density capability and called Turbo 810T below:-

 

 

 

[_The Doctor__]

Clean the heads and clean the disks, Clean or replace rabbits fur pressure pad, clean the fly wheel, drive wheel, and belts (let dry). Once done try to use the same power brick matched to each drive every time. Make sure all connectors are clean.

[Havok69]

14 hours ago, _The Doctor__ said:

Clean the heads and clean the disks, Clean or replace rabbits fur pressure pad, clean the fly wheel, drive wheel, and belts (let dry). Once done try to use the same power brick matched to each drive every time. Make sure all connectors are clean.

And then shower thoroughly before handling the disks.

[DistantStar001]

23 hours ago, spookt said:

If the 1050s are leaving marks on the disk surface the felt pad which sits above the head and applies slight pressure may have failed. They can be repaired with various materials. I used the felt pressure pads from cassettes back in the day. 

The felt pads are new actually. I got them from Best Electronics a while back when one fell off. They're still there and look to be in good shape.

 

19 hours ago, TZJB said:

I would suggest that you do not use DOS 3 for testing (or for anything) as DOS 2.0S or DOS 2.5 should be the mimimum standard due to compatibility issues, with the latter superceding DOS 3. I often use MyDOS 4.53 which is DOS 2 compatible but lot more powerful, and also supports true double density and higher capacities up to 16MB.

 

I used DOS 3 because I had the disk and it worked in my 810s so I figured it would work in the 1050s as well. I do have a DOS 2.5 disk, but Neither my 810s nor my 1050s can read it. That disk also has some of the most severe wear marks from the 1050s (back when it was working).

 

19 hours ago, TZJB said:

The other thing I check for is that the head rails are clean and free-moving. They can also be lubricated with a light oil or silicone grease to make them quieter. Do not use WD40 as it is a moisture displacer and will dry out and make the head stick (I tried it).

 

I did check the rails and they move smoothly, But I do have some lithium grease and sewing machine oil for that if needed.

 

19 hours ago, TZJB said:

Regarding the marks left on your disks by the drive heads, could you perhaps upload a picture of the marks and the heads? I assume you are using Side 0 of the disk with the disk label upwards?

 

Done. The first is my DOS 2.5  disk, the other is Sea Dragon. Fortunately, the latter still works.

You can see that the wear is on the bottom of the disks indicating the read head as the culprit.

 

19 hours ago, TZJB said:

Regarding speed variance, this could be due to the drive belt being loose and slipping. If it is original, like the rest of the drive, it is 40 years old probably and may need treatment or a replacement.

 

I'll look into that.

 

19 hours ago, TZJB said:

As to 810 drive enhancements, there is an addon that gives the 810 true double density capability and called Turbo 810T below:-

 

I'll look into that as well! :-D

 

18 hours ago, _The Doctor__ said:

Clean the heads and clean the disks, Clean or replace rabbits fur pressure pad, clean the fly wheel, drive wheel, and belts (let dry). Once done try to use the same power brick matched to each drive every time. Make sure all connectors are clean.

This has me wanting to stick with my 810s. Seriously though, I will be looking into some new belts. I have to get some for my 410 anyway.

[_The Doctor__]

If your heads are doing that and the pressure pad is set properly you have a one in a bazzillion issue in that 2 1050's both have damaged heads with the same person at the same time as a natural occurrence. Barring someone physically damaging the heads. Maybe play the serial numbers and their variants in the highest paying lotteries you can find.

 I think maybe the drives need to go to one of the many skilled as well as capable people that can give them a proper look / possibly taking care of he issues.

 

I would give the head and pressure setting another look, The pads might be 'new' but can still be contaminated by installation or a by a bad disk shedding material into them. So you can clean them hopefully no adhesive went where it shouldn't. Otherwise have a pro take care of it for you.

[+Larry]

Have you considered 3-1/2" disks -- 720K?  If you want retro-type storage, then there is a new 3-1/2" drive available from "Zaxon" in Poland.  I have a gazillion drives (That's less than a bazillion 🙂 ), but have moved all my unprotected disks to ATR's for PC-type storage.  IF you're interested in a brand new drive, he sells on sellmyretro.com.  I have one in transit, right now. 

 

https://www.sellmyretro.com/offer/details/64292

 

Also, here's a recent thread with pics and user info:

OTOH, the cheapest 1050 upgrade to get DD (other than DIY) is probably the Happy 1050 upgrade from Atarimax.com. 

[TZJB]

10 hours ago, DistantStar001 said:

The felt pads are new actually. I got them from Best Electronics a while back when one fell off. They're still there and look to be in good shape.

 

I used DOS 3 because I had the disk and it worked in my 810s so I figured it would work in the 1050s as well. I do have a DOS 2.5 disk, but Neither my 810s nor my 1050s can read it. That disk also has some of the most severe wear marks from the 1050s (back when it was working).

 

I did check the rails and they move smoothly, But I do have some lithium grease and sewing machine oil for that if needed.

 

Done. The first is my DOS 2.5  disk, the other is Sea Dragon. Fortunately, the latter still works.

You can see that the wear is on the bottom of the disks indicating the read head as the culprit.

 

 

Thanks for the pictures.

 

The damage to the DOS 2.5 disk is bad. These disks look similar to Atari SSSD 90KB disks as they have no middle reinforcement ring.

 

They unfortunately look like poor quality disks which are losing their magnetic coating. Most disks of that age have the reinforcement ring in the middle, are better quality and rated for DSDD 360KB, so I would blame the disks more than the disk drives.

 

Drive heads are polished and very tough, if they get oxide dirt on them from rogue disks, this can then cause further disk damage. It can happen with tapes too, in fact all magnetic media.

 

Regarding DOS, Atari DOS I and 2.0S were mainly designed for the Atari 810 disk drives, and Atari DOS 3 for the Atari 1050 in order to support the enhanced capacity. Unfortunately DOS 3 failed to receive support due to lack of compatibility with DOS I and 2.0 thus DOS 2.5, was born.

 

As far as I know, no other Atari compatible DOS supports DOS 3 and vice-versa, hence my advice to dump DOS 3 and use another. In any case the master DOS disk should be backed up and not be in general use, in your case you can't use the master disk due to damage, but then ideally you need to make or source a replacement.

 

See Atarimania for descriptions and to check what version of DOS 3 you are running.

 

https://www.atarimania.com/faq-atari-400-800-xl-xe-what-is-atari-dos-and-what-versions-did-atari-release_82.html

 

 

[DistantStar001]

13 hours ago, _The Doctor__ said:

If your heads are doing that and the pressure pad is set properly you have a one in a bazzillion issue in that 2 1050's both have damaged heads with the same person at the same time as a natural occurrence. Barring someone physically damaging the heads. Maybe play the serial numbers and their variants in the highest paying lotteries you can find.

 

Even bigger odds than that, considering that I got both drives separately and from different sources.

 

13 hours ago, _The Doctor__ said:

 I think maybe the drives need to go to one of the many skilled as well as capable people that can give them a proper look / possibly taking care of he issues.

 

Sadly, not a lot of those where I live.

4 hours ago, TZJB said:

 

Thanks for the pictures.

 

The damage to the DOS 2.5 disk is bad. These disks look similar to Atari SSSD 90KB disks as they have no middle reinforcement ring.

 

They unfortunately look like poor quality disks which are losing their magnetic coating. Most disks of that age have the reinforcement ring in the middle, are better quality and rated for DSDD 360KB, so I would blame the disks more than the disk drives.

 

Drive heads are polished and very tough, if they get oxide dirt on them from rogue disks, this can then cause further disk damage. It can happen with tapes too, in fact all magnetic media.

 

Regarding DOS, Atari DOS I and 2.0S were mainly designed for the Atari 810 disk drives, and Atari DOS 3 for the Atari 1050 in order to support the enhanced capacity. Unfortunately DOS 3 failed to receive support due to lack of compatibility with DOS I and 2.0 thus DOS 2.5, was born.

 

As far as I know, no other Atari compatible DOS supports DOS 3 and vice-versa, hence my advice to dump DOS 3 and use another. In any case the master DOS disk should be backed up and not be in general use, in your case you can't use the master disk due to damage, but then ideally you need to make or source a replacement.

 

See Atarimania for descriptions and to check what version of DOS 3 you are running.

 

https://www.atarimania.com/faq-atari-400-800-xl-xe-what-is-atari-dos-and-what-versions-did-atari-release_82.html

 

 

This makes sense to me, as the disks would be the common factor between the two drives. Obviously, I don't use my Atari formatted disks in my Apple II, Commodore, RadioShack (etc..) drives. So if these "poor-quality" disks are leaving bits of themselves on the heads, it would explain why only these drives were leaving marks. The good news is that I have a SIO2USB, so I can make some replacement disks for both DOS 2.5 and Sea Dragon (I found a .atr file).

 

11 hours ago, Larry said:

Have you considered 3-1/2" disks -- 720K?  If you want retro-type storage, then there is a new 3-1/2" drive available from "Zaxon" in Poland.  I have a gazillion drives (That's less than a bazillion 🙂 ), but have moved all my unprotected disks to ATR's for PC-type storage.  IF you're interested in a brand new drive, he sells on sellmyretro.com.  I have one in transit, right now. 

 

This is a neat project, but finding a good source for 720k 3.5in disks is becoming increasingly difficult these days. I have a hard enough time getting them for my old Macs, and I ended up outfitting my Amiga 500 with a GoTek because of it.

[+bob1200xl]

How many bad disks do you have? You should get rid of any disk that sheds oxide.

 

Bob

 

[DistantStar001]

2 hours ago, bob1200xl said:

How many bad disks do you have? You should get rid of any disk that sheds oxide.

 

Bob

 

Those were the only ones I kept since they were original Atari disks. I don't have that many Atari-formatted disks since all I had were the 1050s. Now that my suspicions have been shifted to the disks themselves and I just got my third 810... I'll be formatting a few more.

[TGB1718]

10 hours ago, DistantStar001 said:

This is a neat project, but finding a good source for 720k 3.5in disks is becoming increasingly difficult these days.

Also, 3 1/2 floppy disks seem even less resilient than 5 1/4, I stored all my 8 bit and ST disks in the same places over the years and

can say probably 90% of my ST disks no longer read/write, where as I'm still using a lot of my original (and older) 5 1/4 disks from

my 800 and 130XE (although all backed up, just in case)

[+Larry]

3 hours ago, TGB1718 said:

Also, 3 1/2 floppy disks seem even less resilient than 5 1/4, I stored all my 8 bit and ST disks in the same places over the years and

can say probably 90% of my ST disks no longer read/write, where as I'm still using a lot of my original (and older) 5 1/4 disks from

my 800 and 130XE (although all backed up, just in case)

I researched that, and all I can find is anecdotal opinions (either pro or con for 3.5 vs. 5.25 disks).  My own experience has been excellent for both types, and fortunately, I have plenty of both.)  I always used name brand disks, and I my first act after getting a new Atari branded disk was to back it up. 

[scitari]

I have eight 1050s and have not had this problem. Definitely not normal. Something is not aligned correctly. Maybe the previous owner attempted some self-repair and left them in a sub-optimal state? Good luck!