Neo Geo games to Jaguar? Would be possible?

[DEATH]

1 hour ago, Sauron said:

No point in arguing with him, he's just yet another smartass throwing numberwang around without having the slightest idea of what it takes to put together a hardware product from scratch, like most of the other idiots who come on here and do the same thing. No matter how much you try to explain, they'll never understand that putting together a hardware product involves more than just adding up the total cost of the parts.

 

I think you're right...
He even liked my first comments without realizing that they were against his statements.
I wonder how old he is, what are his qualifications, his experience, his knowledge to be able to come out with such nonsense that only looks like copy/paste found on the Internet without understanding the meaning. He obviously doesn't know either the world of big companies where every dollar, every cent counts (especially at Atari...) when it comes to mass production. He also doesn't know the difference between the design and availability of a product compared to the technology actually effective at a specific date (especially in electronics/computers and even more so at that time). Etc. etc.

[alucardX]

2 hours ago, laymanpigeon said:

Hello there, can you go somewhere else projecting yourself instead of jumping to own desired conclusions (?) about me thus inadvertently lie about me. There are so many of people like you that can do that along throw insults because that is only thing people like you are capable off. No decent culture, no civility and let alone not doing to others you would not want not upon yourself. I guess you for example took worst traits of your parents. I pity your siblings if you have any.

Wow guy, way to hit him where it hurts!

[+Stephen]

1 hour ago, DEATH said:

I wonder how old he is, what are his qualifications,

He has said he wasn't alive when the Jaguar was out (1993) and I am pretty sure his biggest qualification is riding in a school bus 25% the length of a normal one.  He is very good at shit posting though, and he gets the results he is after (people respond).  So looking at it that way, who are the dumb ones?

[laymanpigeon]

6 hours ago, 42bs said:

While googling chip prices you should also check how much more complicated a128bit bus is compared to a 64bit one.

If same dimensions of motherboard were kept then it would be extremely difficult or impossible though motherboard of Jaguar is odd looking with cropped corners, curious if is it consequence of adaptation to fit inside design of plastic shell or was it taking advantage of space if motherboard was previously smaller.

 

Removing 68HC000 would allow for two 4 megabits FPM modules to be placed instead while without cropped corners there can be made changes to locations of components and wirings, Jerry would have to be moved to have space for another two FPM modules. Tom having 128 bit DRAM controller is out of question unlike for Jerry to have own 64 bit controller.

 

Alternatively if one wants to truly go radical is to not have DRAM controller in Tom nor Jerry and instead have dedicated chip for it. 384 pins/lines/connections with 288 for memory bus of it 128 is for DRAM, 64 per processor and 32 for cartridge while rest for power supply and what not. It would enable processors to send data to each other directly instead one writing results to DRAM and other taking it from DRAM.

 

If 32 of such are "excess" during design process then those could be dedicated to CD-ROM drive add-on by having slot for it's connect to connect too consoles power supply thus no need for CD-ROM drive to have dedicated power brick nor it using cartridge slot as connector to console.

6 hours ago, 42bs said:

And then try to find out what options for RAM and CPU and ASIC where available in 1990. Only those are relevant for the design of the Jaguar. Not 1991 or later.

Does it state year 1990 on Tom and Jerry? No, it does not as it is 1992 and 68EC030 is available in 1990. 25MHz rated 68EC030 by 1st quarter of 1993 was 34USD compared to 16MHz 68HC000 being 15USD, former has three times MIPS of latter.

 

Though presence of it would make adding DRAM impossible while more of DRAM would have future proofed Jaguar since Saturn that has total of 2 megabytes of DRAM needed 4 megabyte expansion cartridge for Street Fighter Alpha 3. Yet on Saturn was most accurate port of arcade game because of that since PlayStation had only 4 megabytes without port that could expand it while Jaguar with 4MB of DRAM could probably match Saturn if game was on cartridge thus no missing animation frames.

6 hours ago, 42bs said:

No designer relies on possible future chips.

Oh yes, future chips released years before Tom and Jerry or at best year or two before manufacturing even started. Development of EDO derived from FPM was finished in 1991 with Fujitsu starting mass manufacturing of chips in 1991 and EDO SIMM modules were available for purchase in 1992. Development of Pentium P5 and Socket 4 that are capable of using EDO was finished in 1992 and mass production started with product launch occuring in March of 1993.

2 hours ago, DEATH said:

I think you're right...

Because you like him do not know me hence absurd conclusions.

 

Never considered that did you? Or you prefer fan fiction?

2 hours ago, DEATH said:

He even liked my first comments without realizing that they were against his statements.

...and of course only way people in here can do is make wrong conclusions about me that has no basis in reality yet believe so as consequence of not knowing me.

2 hours ago, DEATH said:

I wonder how old he is, what are his qualifications, his experience, his knowledge to be able to come out with such nonsense that only looks like copy/paste found on the Internet without understanding the meaning. He obviously doesn't know either the world of big companies where every dollar, every cent counts (especially at Atari...) when it comes to mass production. He also doesn't know the difference between the design and availability of a product compared to the technology actually effective at a specific date (especially in electronics/computers and even more so at that time). Etc. etc.

You obviously believe it is nonsense because you do not understand logic behind it and perhaps I was being to concise with my perspective hence I guess I had too much confidence in veterans in here to comprehend my statements.

 

Does not help that few of them all can do is throw insults and provide no arguments unlike you do yet instead of interpreting me as acknowledging it you rather came to conclusion that I do not understand it. So you are yet another arrogant person in here.

 

After all you assert all that while conveniently ignoring my opinion about Nintendo 64 and Dreamcast. Both made compromises to get what was deemed ideal balance between power and cost of console for given price point they aimed for. Only for such decisions to very negative effect on performance and experience for both developers and consumers.

 

Nintendo lost support of many 3rd party developers due to keeping cartridge slot for games instead of moving to CD-ROM drives as game storage medium when 2x speed were no longer prohibitively expensive since late 1994. Choice of RDRAM for sysrem memory  did not help either due to very high bandwidth per pin had drawbacks of high latency compared EDO and SGRAM(SDRAM) involving small sized writes and reads that is majority of what occurs with memory unlike large read and writes, as too SGI that participated in designing Nintendo 64 ditched RDRAM for SDRAM onwards  on all their servers, two years after launch of Nintendo 64. Another consequence is Saturn may have hold onto 2nd place in Japan with Nintendo 64 staying third.

 

Dreamcast due to having only 16 megabytes for main system memory was basically doomed long term even if there was no uncontrolled piracy on the console. Because it resulted in frequent loading screen with most notorious being Soldiers of Fortune and even if Dreamcast had enough CPU and GPU performance to get a port of Playstation 2 game, system memory made some impossible. At least homebrew scene is porting Grand Theft Auto 3 to it, playable on original specifications without increasing system memory to 32 megabyte RAM. An achievement through optimizations of assets to fit inside 16 megabyte system memory.

 

Home consoles launched in 1993 and 1994 had parity with home computers in terms of amount of memory and outperformed home computers when it came to video games. Nintendo 64 was not for former though it had ROM cartridges that were also used like RAM at times by directly taking data to CPU and or GPU to process it instead of first storing it to RAM then do work on it. Nintendo 64 was also not latter when came to processing performance, more so due to latency of RDRAM that stalled the console hence to avoid that cartridge was used as RAM to reduce impact RDRAM's latency. Ever since gap widened until previous reduced it and current generation is in comparable place as 4th generation was against home computers.

41 minutes ago, Stephen said:

He has said he wasn't alive when the Jaguar was out (1993) and I am pretty sure his biggest qualification is riding in a school bus 25% the length of a normal one.  He is very good at shit posting though, and he gets the results he is after (people respond).  So looking at it that way, who are the dumb ones?

Old enough to remember playing Tekken 3, Fifa 2000, NFL 2000, NBA 2000, Syphon Filter 1 and 2, Grand Turismo 2, Resident Evil 3, Hidden & Dangerous, some SOCOM game, Medal of Honor Underground, Tony Hawk Proskater 1 and 2, etc...

[DEATH]

58 minutes ago, Stephen said:

He has said he wasn't alive when the Jaguar was out (1993) and I am pretty sure his biggest qualification is riding in a school bus 25% the length of a normal one.  He is very good at shit posting though, and he gets the results he is after (people respond).  So looking at it that way, who are the dumb ones?

who knows...
he may be a troll or a wanabe given the bullshit he says.
I've seen so many like him... Easy to spot since what they say makes no sense and/or they repeat what they may have read or heard elsewhere without understanding the meaning. The most "amusing" thing is when, as a expert, you say something wrong without meaning to and they still agree because they don't understand what you're saying anyway, or when you say something too technical, they get lost and prefer not to say anything on the subject.

[alucardX]

Is it a hate crime to ban the machine learning accounts? Since they are not sentient yet we should be fine right?

[phoenixdownita]

What is it wrt the jag that attracts such ilk?

 

It used to be the fumes but in this case the guy doesn’t even have it … magic fumes for sure.

 

I think we’ve seen before how numberwanging ends … never pretty.

Edited September 10 by phoenixdownita

[+CyranoJ]

[laymanpigeon]

1 hour ago, alucardX said:

Is it a hate crime to ban the machine learning accounts? Since they are not sentient yet we should be fine right?

More like I forgot what I wrote 2 years ago

I guess porting Tomb Raider to Jaguar hit dead end.

https://x.com/swapd0/status/1487121240871550980

 

Discussions I had with Downix and now relearning along visiting links from that I did before. Reading what we chatted from 2 years ago... Talking shit about Nintendo 64 while sadness at 32X being released so close to Saturn when former would it would have made sense for such to be released in 1993. Finding out 3DO had many former Atari and Amiga engineers. Mark Cerny worked for Atari.

 

Well those were fleeting interests compared discussing about Iranian and North Korean weapons whenever one or other shown or tested something new.

Edited September 11 by laymanpigeon

[+Sauron]

12 minutes ago, laymanpigeon said:

More like I forgot what I wrote 2 years ago

I guess porting Tomb Raider to Jaguar hit dead end.

https://x.com/swapd0/status/1487121240871550980

 

Discussions I had with Downix and now relearning along visiting links from that I did before. Reading what we chatted from 2 years ago... Talking shit about Nintendo 64 while sadness at 32X being released so close to Saturn when former would it would have made sense for such to be released in 1993. Finding out 3DO had many former Atari and Amiga engineers. Mark Cerny worked for Atari.

 

Well those were fleeting interests compared discussing about Iranian and North Korean weapons whenever one or other shown or tested something new.

 

stumbled upon old blog I participated in.

 

https://psgobb.blogspot.com/2013/01/speculation-101-playstation-4-aka-orbis.html?m=1

 

https://psgobb.blogspot.com/2013/01/speculation-101-ps4-dev-kit-january.html?m=1

This post is the forum equivalent of masturbating in public. You may find it enjoyable, but everyone else is horrified to have witnessed it.

 

 

[+madman]

3 hours ago, phoenixdownita said:

What is it wrt the jag that attracts such ilk?

At this point I'm convinced that when asylums shut down they send people out into the world with nothing but the clothes on their back and a QR code that links to this forum.

[42bs]

5 hours ago, laymanpigeon said:

25MHz rated 68EC030 by 1st quarter of 1993 was 34USD compared to 16MHz 68HC000 being 15USD

Ok, one last attempt: The 030 was more then double the 68k in costs in 1993, but this is of no relevance for a system designed in 1990. And even if this prices would have been the same in 1990 it would have been to expensive. The cost of the BOM must be doubled at least to get some revenue from selling the device.
 

[+Sauron]

55 minutes ago, 42bs said:

The cost of the BOM must be doubled at least to get some revenue from selling the device.
 

This is what people fail to understand time and time again. It takes money to hire designers, design custom processors and hardware, create a lithography mask for the custom processors, fabricate them, design and assemble the circuit boards, create a casing, assemble all of the various parts into a working system, test the systems, create packaging, manuals, and controllers for the system, etc. Those who jump in here complaining that the Jag should've used such and such hardware because it supposedly cost a certain price would do well to remember this (and the same to those who think modern-day Atari should be releasing sub-$100 FPGA-based consoles, for that matter).

[42bs]

Unless you do it like M$ or Sony: Sell a console below production cost and (hope to) earn the money by selling games.
IIRC the xbox was the cheapest Linux PC when it came out. People even built xbox clusters.

[42bs]

7 hours ago, laymanpigeon said:

Old enough to remember playing Tekken 3, Fifa 2000,

You'd better spent more time in primary school then playing games.

[phoenixdownita]

10 hours ago, madman said:

At this point I'm convinced that when asylums shut down they send people out into the world with nothing but the clothes on their back and a QR code that links to this forum.

I hear you but why the jag?

I mean they could numberwang on the cd32 much easier, it can be proven 2mb of fast ram does wonders, or numberwang on the CDi, it can be proven not removing the adder for the AGU in the Philips non canon 68070 cpu would have allowed better gaming perf, or numberwang on the 3DO/M2 … hell even just numberwang the SNES and how an 8bit bus did not help the 65816 one bit.

 

Why specifically the jag?

I guess jumping on the RISC bandwagon (I think it may have been the first) may lend it to be deep numberwanging material … not quite sure.

The fact Atari went under once it decided to go all in on a single product strategy is more against Atari than the jag … granted Nintendo almost faltered as well on the Wii U but it sold so much more (plus Mario games sell well) to allow them to float and to develop the successor, recover and actually sell more Switch than anything else they ever sold almost catching up to PS2 sales … unreal.

Edited September 11 by phoenixdownita

[+Stephen]

4 minutes ago, phoenixdownita said:

I hear you but why the jag?

Been asking myself this very thing since 1994.

[42bs]

34 minutes ago, phoenixdownita said:

I hear you but why the jag?

Maybe CD32 forums kick those quicker?

[Lost Monkey]

9 hours ago, Sauron said:

This is what people fail to understand time and time again. It takes money to hire designers, design custom processors and hardware, create a lithography mask for the custom processors, fabricate them, design and assemble the circuit boards, create a casing, assemble all of the various parts into a working system, test the systems, create packaging, manuals, and controllers for the system, etc. Those who jump in here complaining that the Jag should've used such and such hardware because it supposedly cost a certain price would do well to remember this (and the same to those who think modern-day Atari should be releasing sub-$100 FPGA-based consoles, for that matter).

Not to mention that software needs a lead time as well.

 

 

[alucardX]

12 hours ago, madman said:

At this point I'm convinced that when asylums shut down they send people out into the world with nothing but the clothes on their back and a QR code that links to this forum.

I've wondered for 20 years how I found this place, but you've sparked a distant and lost memory.

[alucardX]

10 hours ago, Sauron said:

This is what people fail to understand time and time again. It takes money to hire designers, design custom processors and hardware, create a lithography mask for the custom processors, fabricate them, design and assemble the circuit boards, create a casing, assemble all of the various parts into a working system, test the systems, create packaging, manuals, and controllers for the system, etc. Those who jump in here complaining that the Jag should've used such and such hardware because it supposedly cost a certain price would do well to remember this (and the same to those who think modern-day Atari should be releasing sub-$100 FPGA-based consoles, for that matter).

That doesn't matter because these things all materialize from "somewhere else" and then the unboxing fairy comes and does a fun video and shows the magical wonder of unboxing a natural born console. It's a bit like a birth, bring the new system into a harsh and uncaring world.

[phoenixdownita]

1 hour ago, Stephen said:

Been asking myself this very thing since 1994.

That’s the year QR codes were invented … mhhhhh.

[phoenixdownita]

1 hour ago, 42bs said:

Maybe CD32 forums kick those quicker?

Not sure … Vlad managed a couple years there too, just generic Amiga though not specifically CD32 … we should have the 2 meet … “I take your numberwang and raise it to the power of grayskull” … could be epic.

[laymanpigeon]

11 hours ago, 42bs said:

Ok, one last attempt: The 030 was more then double the 68k in costs in 1993, but this is of no relevance for a system designed in 1990. And even if this prices would have been the same in 1990 it would have been to expensive. The cost of the BOM must be doubled at least to get some revenue from selling the device.

You write nonsense that ignores what I wrote in this and other threads, no actual counter arguments from you like anyone else in here besides user DEATH that unfortunately does not seem capable of comprehending I can agree with arguments made by some people, but alas people mock me as me being AI while ironically they behave like one. 

 

Your supposed argument that you are trying to make is contradicted by very action Atari itself made that proves you wrong, also if you had actual valid argument then you would not cherry pick by focusing on 68030 and ignoring 68020. How many times do I have to prove you wrong and expose you for being disingenuous underhanded bastard?

 

68000 in Jaguar is 16MHz rated 68HC000 that is 15$ by 1993 when regular 68000 was 5~6USD yet if cost was issue then why pick most expensive 68000 model? For that matter 68HC000 used was down clocked from 16MHz to 13MHz hence nearly 20 percent reduction of performance it had. For that matter 16MHz 68EC020 was same price as 68HC000 and has 32 bit data bus along 256 bytes of instruction cache while same 24 bit address width unlike standard 68020 is 32 bit. Though if willing for just 3USD more there is 25MHz rated 68EC020 that can do 7.5 MIPS compared to 16MHz 68HC000 that does 2.2 MIPS.

 

68EC030 is fully 32 bit with 256 bytes each for instruction and data cache while lacks memory management unit of standard 68030. Not as cost effective as 25MHz rated 68EC020 though 68EC030 having 256 bytes of data cache that 68EC020 does not have is arguably substantial since it would have least impact on system bandwidth than either 68000/68HC000 and 68020/68EC020. Because latter does not have data cache and former does not also have instructions cache.

 

If Atari went by your own nonsense logic then they would not have used 4 megabit DRAM chips nor FPM rated at 70ns in Jaguar.

 

Also if Jaguar had 68EC030 then it would have had in same family processor as Amiga 3000/4000, more so with Atari Falcon and Amiga CD32 had 68EC020.

10 hours ago, Sauron said:

This is what people fail to understand time and time again. It takes money to hire designers, design custom processors and hardware, create a lithography mask for the custom processors, fabricate them, design and assemble the circuit boards, create a casing, assemble all of the various parts into a working system, test the systems, create packaging, manuals, and controllers for the system, etc. Those who jump in here complaining that the Jag should've used such and such hardware because it supposedly cost a certain price would do well to remember this (and the same to those who think modern-day Atari should be releasing sub-$100 FPGA-based consoles, for that matter).

Jaguar during development had 68030 and 68020 then 68000 and could have been without it yet people like you pretend it never happened or maybe you do not even know that fact, so which is it?

 

Even on matter of cost people like you are wrong as 68HC000 in Jaguar that costs as much as 68EC020 when Jaguar during development supported 68030 and 68020 only for all that work to be essentially scrapped.

 

People like you fail time and time again that you are in the wrong and are making excuses, work was already done for Jaguar to support 68030 and 68020 as too cost fallacy of being too expensive when most expensive model of 68000 was used that being 16MHz rated 68HC000 at 15USD. They could have used 12MHz 68000 that was just 5USD.

 

25MHz 68EC030 would allow for games being ported from Amiga 3000/4000 and even CD32.

 

While people like you go on "but oh the cost, think of the cost..." and do not consider people that owned Sega Genesis spent 300USD in 1992 on CD add-on that could not function on its own while itself with Genesis totaled 400~450USD in 1992.

 

 

[phoenixdownita]

Dunno … the Sega Megadrive 2 used square (qfp? package)  68hc000 in 1993 (the va1 board), the older Megadrive 1 used DIP 68hc000 in some va6, moved to the square HC in va7, https://consolemods.org/wiki/Genesis:Motherboard_Differences

The mega cd1 and 2 seems to use the square HC version as well.

 

Probably the published cost of the 68HC000 is a red herring and it was cheaper than indicated , Sega would not switch to a more expensive version for their cost reduced design, also not sure there was a square version non HC in quantity, maybe by this time 64 pin DIP packages were also out of favor, everything was going square (qfp).

Edited September 11 by phoenixdownita