"XF351" (from Zaxon) users thread

[+Larry]

I thought it might be useful to have a thread for this new disk drive to share info about using the drive.  I think that much of the info would also be applicable for the "1050 Mini" also from Zaxon.  I hope others will add to this thread.

 

I got mine a couple of days ago, and got it set up just yesterday.  It's early in the game, but I've got some thoughts and questions already. 

 

The 5VDC power supply furnished is the European type, but the supply does accept 90-240 VAC, so it should work in the U.S. and other 110V areas using a pin adapter.  The barrel connector on mine is 5.5/2.1 mm (center positive), so that is a common size if you want to use a U.S. type power supply.  The supplied 3-1/2" diskette boots up fine.  It is HD with the HD hole covered up.  It boots to MyDos 4.53/3.  Unfortunately, I could not find one of my 3-1/2" written with "old-style" 3-1/2" mechs that would boot or read, so something is definitely different about this mech as compared to my other mechs from the 80's/90's.  I am bummed out that it can't read my older disks (so far).  I wonder if this is a new mech or a used one?

 

Next I tried to format a blank 720K DD diskette.  It cycled 3 times before finally completing the format.  Once formatted, I could write Dos files without  incident, and that disk also did boot.  Today, I'll try some HD disks.  Normally, I shy away from using HD disks due to data integrity issues.  I also have plenty of DD disks, but maybe this drive is set up to provide the higher write current normally needed by HD disks. (??)

 

I would like to replace the 1770 FDC with a 1772 (and use the HyperXF OS), but upon opening the drive (two small screws), the mechanism is "locked" in place with what appears to be a glued-in plastic tab, and the mechanism must be lifted in order to get to the PCB.  Has anyone else opened theirs and looked at the mech or PCB?  It appears to be one of the modern slim-line USB type mechs., but since it is still inside the case, it's difficult to say for certain.  As far as I can tell, my drive is running at 1X SIO, but more tests are needed to see if it will do 2X (as do stock XF551s when running as DS/DD).

 

As others have commented, the 3D printed case is very nice.  It looks first-rate to me.  But there is more for me to find out about how this drive operates.  The description on Sellmyretro.com says that there is a SIO2PC USB interface inside, so I presume that is what connects with a mini "B" USB port on the back of the drive. (??)  There are no SIO ports -- the single SIO connector is hard-wired into the drive.  The SIO plug is a 3D printed one.  It is a snug fit in my 600XL, but it does work fine. 

 

Additional info/results when I've used the drive more.  There are at least three others that have posted here at AA that they own this type drive.  Is anyone aware of any docs or reviews of this drive?  I hope other users will chime in as to their experiences.

 

 

[LessNick]

Well, not long ago I also received my XF351 and immediately started experimenting.

The first thing that caught my eye was the presence of both a power connector and a USB connector.

On the photos and videos that I saw earlier there was only a USB connector, which was most likely used as an external power supply.

 

I can’t say anything about the insides, since I don’t want to disassemble the drive yet.

What's a bit unpleasant is that the switches for selecting the device number are reversed from the original. The result is this:

 

▀ ▀  - D1

▄ ▀  - D3

▀ ▄  - D2

▄ ▄  - D4

 

I also noticed that if I boot from the included MyDOS diskette and try to initialize a new diskette, it will only be partially formatted (most likely 90k).

However, if you make a duplicate using the same MyDOS, you will get a fully formatted diskette with 2800+ sectors.

 

I also experimented with different versions of DOS and found a version of XDOS that sees XF351 and switches to accelerated data transfer.

Well, at least it seemed that way to me. For example, loading the game RiverRaid via SIO2USB takes 38 seconds, while loading from XDOS takes only 11.

 

I also want to draw attention to the fact that when I transferred XEX files with games and then tried to run them from a floppy disk with XDOS, not all of them worked. Apparently, some part of the memory is occupied by XDOS and they conflict.

 

But not everything is so bad, after going through a number of releases, I finally found versions that ran perfectly from a floppy disk with XDOS.

 

I also tried to make a bootable floppy disk with SpartaDOS 3.2g, but unfortunately I did not find any accelerated support.

 

In addition, there was a problem with duplicating diskettes. As a rule, ATR images are 90 or 180 KB in size, and DS/DD diskettes are 720.

As a result, duplicating utilities simply cannot transfer data sector by sector and have to copy it file by file, and this, admittedly, is not very fast.

 

I did not work with utilities from that time, mostly launching floppy disks with games, but now I understand what a zoo of interfaces existed in those years.

Perhaps each author had his own vision of how the interface should look, but now it’s too wild for me.

 

But in any case, it is very interesting and exciting, many thanks to the creator of the XF351 clone for the opportunity to touch history.

 

p.s. I will continue to experiment and will definitely share my observations.

Edited July 23 by LessNick

[+Larry]

When you are formatting a new disk (and let's say you want 720K -- DS/DD, 80-tracks), remember that you must first tell MyDos the drive parameters.

 

From the MyDos menu-

 

Make sure the that MyDos shows a "D" (double density)

Type "O" (not zero)

Drive number or Return?

Remove Drive? -- press N or Return

Is Drive Configurable? -- press Y

High Capacity Drive? -- press N or Return

Is Drive Double Sided? -- press Y

Tracks Per Side -- 80

Step Rate -- 1

 

Then MyDos should try to format the disk in DS/DD, 720K.

 

BTW, are you using DD or HD disks?

[+CharlieChaplin]

Try this:

https://atarionline-pl.translate.goog/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=7432&page=1&_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=de&_x_tr_pto=wapp#Item_0

 

or that:

https://atarionline-pl.translate.goog/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=7478&page=1&_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=de&_x_tr_pto=wapp#Item_0 

(e.g. end of page 1 and also page 2)

 

The drive most-likely supports XF-Highspeed, so you may try the program "Disk Duplication 2.0" with the XF highspeed driver by Bob Woolley. (You may also try the ultraspeed driver by Bob Woolley, but I guess the drive does not / not yet support ultraspeed.)

 

[LessNick]

28 minutes ago, Larry said:

Then MyDos should try to format the disk in DS/DD, 720K.

It is very strange that after booting from a floppy disk with specific parameters, before initialization this must be specified in a separate menu item, and not during the process of starting the formatting procedure.

The authors' logic frightens me more and more.

 

But in any case, thank you, I'll keep that in mind.

 

28 minutes ago, Larry said:

BTW, are you using DD or HD disks?

 

Actually, this is a very good question

Judging by the sealed window and forced switching to 720k mode, I honestly am not sure whether the disk drive controller supports floppy disks on 1.44.

 

I think this question should be asked to the creator, but I haven't tried formatting in 1.44.

 

[LessNick]

16 minutes ago, CharlieChaplin said:

Try this:

Quote

Copymate XE V3.8 requires a minimum of 128k,…

OMG! Well, why make such restrictions? It's just the size of the buffer for copying.

Yes it can be useful when using 1 drive, but when I use 2 it's just a small speed boost.

 

 

[+CharlieChaplin]

Problems with reading 3,5" disks on the A8:

 

- most A8 drives and/or FDC's (e.g. WD 1770, WD 1772) used in A8 drives work only with DD, not HD; one may use a disk-protect notch (from 5,25" disks) and glue it on the HD hole of the 3,5" HD disk, the drive will then see the disk as DD - but sooner or later you will get problems with these disks (been there, done that) and they will lose data; better: buy and use 3,5" DD disks, they are still available in large numbers at ebay or at www.floppydisks.com

 

- DS/DD drives, reading/writing the backside of a diskette, there are 3 different variants:

a) track 1-40 (or track 1-80), then backside track 41-80 (or track 81-160)

b) track 1-40 (or track 1-80), then backside track 80-41 (or track 160-81)

    afaik, that's XF style

c) track 1, sector 1, then backside track 41 (or track 81) sector 1; next track 1, sector 2, then backside track 41 (or track 81) sector 2, etc. ; afaik, that's PC style

 

A disk written in one of these variants will not be fully readable with a drive that uses a different variant or it will not be readable at all.

 

[+CharlieChaplin]

12 minutes ago, LessNick said:

OMG! Well, why make such restrictions?

 

 

 

It was not me!  The programs are quite old, guess that is why.

 

[LessNick]

Yes, by the way, I would like to add one more point.

I really miss the power button for XF351.

 

There were a couple of unpleasant cases when the disk drive froze and stopped responding.

Or there was a need to turn it off for a short time.

 

In any case, I had to pull the power supply out of the socket, which is not very convenient.

[LessNick]

Just now, CharlieChaplin said:

It was not me!

I have no complaints against you personally.

A question for the authors who believe that everyone should have at least 128kb.

[+Larry]

If you are going to use MyDos, do get the latest version 4.55 B4, available at https://mathyvannisselroy.nl/

 

Note that if you boot a 720K DS/DD disk, MyDos will access that disk OK, but if you boot something else (say 360K or 180K and insert a new disk to be formatted as 720K, Dos doesn't know about a second side, hence you have to tell it what the disk is.  My boot disk from Zaxon is 360K (single-sided).  EDIT:  Correction!  MyDos says that there are 2867 sectors, Double Density, but it shows up as single-sided. (Evidently a bug in MyDos?)

 

I'm quite sure that the XF351 will not format a HD disk as 1.44.  The oxide chemistry is different between DD and HD, so in order to get the extra data on the HD disk (and keep it there), higher write current is used. That's what the extra hole tells the drive about a HD disk.  (And remember when HD disks first came out, they cost an arm and a leg, so people were drilling or notching an extra hole so that they could use a DD disk as HD?)

 

My next step is to try to get the XF351 to do 2X SIO  (XF high speed SIO).

[+CharlieChaplin]

1 hour ago, Larry said:

My next step is to try to get the XF351 to do 2X SIO.

 

Try these:

 

Note: In MyDOS, in order to get/use XF highspeed, you have to do two renames. 1) rename *.AR1 (ultraspeed driver) to *.AUT, then 2) rename XFHIGH.AUT to *.AR1. Finally boot the disk again and see/hear if it uses highspeed or not.

 

EDIT: If I remember correctly, XDOS boots the standard (19k2 Baud) version, to execute the version with XF highspeed you have to type XDOS251F and press Return (f = fast, with drivers for Turbo 1050 and XF drives). To make the fast version the standard one, type INI and it will write the new (fast) DOS version onto the disk.

 

 

(Bibo/Turbo-DOS: max. 360k, XDOS: max. 180k)

BDOS64XF.ATR XDOS251.ATR TDOS21XF.ATR XF_test.zip MYDOS455.ATR

[LessNick]

Quote

COPY720K.COM

awesome ~_~'

 

 

and another strange dos interface >_>

run exe, but com got error? why? there is no answer

Edited July 23 by LessNick

[+CharlieChaplin]

Hahaha, funny.

 

In Turbo-DOS XL/XE, use the HELP key to get an overview of all available commands - alternatively type HEL.

So, you did NOT run HELP.EXE, instead you got the table of available commands.

 

To execute .COM files you can a) type LOA FILENAME.COM b) type LOA F- (where - is the same as *.*), c) type F(ILENAME) and then Shift+Return,

to execute .EXE files you can a) type D(IR) and then Control+Return => displays german text (examples of the DIR command), b) type H(ELP) and then Control+Return => displays and executes all available commands, including format (so better don't do that).

In Turbo-DOS *.EXE files are batchfiles, they can display texts, but they can also execute all of the available DOS commands (so handle with caution). If you do not want to execute them, but simply display their contents use TYP *.EXE

 

This DOS was developed in Germany, so do not be surprised that it uses german texts here and there. (Same for BiboDOS, which is completely in german language.)

 

Besides, TurOff, TurOn are drivers for the Turbo 1050 floppy enhancement (and compatibles, like TOMS). Without a Turbo enhancement they will not do anything (the numbers after TurOn mean page 1, page 4 and page 6; TurboX.COM creates these drivers). IrataRD is a ramdisk driver for the very rare Irata ramdisk, sold in Germany some 40 years ago. MIO is for the MIO ramdisk.

 

FMS = format single, 90k

FME = format enhanced, 130k

FMD = format double, 180k

FMQ = format quad (DSDD), 360k

CLR = clear disk, a quick format, wipes DIR and VTOC, but does not format

INI = initialize/write DOS and DUP

 

90k/130k/180k use standard 3 Bytes for sector/file-links (like DOS 2.0 and DOS 2.5), however Quad (360k) uses 4 Bytes for sector/file-links (incompatible to other DOS versions, like Bibo-DOS and MyDOS).

 

[+Larry]

A lot of useful stuff on those disks @CharlieChaplin!  Thanks!  I'll work with those ATR's tomorrow.  Getting this new "toy" has motivated me to work with my hardware again. 

[+CharlieChaplin]

If you do not have XRAM available and still want to copy 720k disks, try Disk Duplication 2.0. It works with 48k / 64k RAM (has a very small copy buffer then) and also supports two drives.

 

If 360k format is enough, then try Diskcopy on the Turbo-DOS XL/XE disk, it supports 90/130/180/360k and when working with two drives, then 64K RAM is enough. It also supports various speeders (Happy, Speedy, Turbo, XF). When the program has loaded press "ESC" to get to the setup/config, press ESC again to leave. Return to start copying, START to interrupt copying and change settings. (Beware: If you interrupt copying with START and then do a DIR command, the copy buffer will be emptied and you have to re-start copying again.)

 

 

[LessNick]

40 minutes ago, CharlieChaplin said:

To execute .COM files you can a) type LOA FILENAME.COM b) type LOA F- (where - is the same as *.*), c) type F(ILENAME) and then Shift+Return,

to execute .EXE files you can a) type D(IR) and then Control+Return => displays german text (examples of the DIR command), b) type H(ELP) and then Control+Return => displays and executes all available commands, including format (so better don't do that).

In Turbo-DOS *.EXE files are batchfiles, they can display texts, but they can also execute all of the available DOS commands (so handle with caution). If you do not want to execute them, but simply display their contents use TYP *.EXE

I don't know what the author was smoking when he came up with additional commands to launch executable files, but it looks very strange.

I would honestly understand if this was at the dawn of the development of operating systems, around 1982-84, but in 1990 there were already quite a few sensible examples of dos and I don’t understand why it was necessary to complicate the user’s life so much.

In any case, it’s terribly inconvenient to remember this every time and type in some additional commands.

No matter how interesting it is, I won't use it.

 

45 minutes ago, CharlieChaplin said:

This DOS was developed in Germany, so do not be surprised that it uses german texts here and there.

Language localization is the least of the problems, although it also brings its own inconveniences when used.

 

In any case, thank you very much for the information provided, we will look for what suits us.

[LessNick]

25 minutes ago, CharlieChaplin said:

If you do not have XRAM available and still want to copy 720k disks, try Disk Duplication 2.0.

By and large, I don't think a duplicator will help us here.

Most of the images are very old and designed for 40-track disk drives.

So in any case, we will have to manually create own disk compilation and copy the necessary programs onto them.

 

The only open question that remains is what to do with “closed” images, which do not have DOS as such and the files are a solid monoloader.

But I suspect there is nothing to do with such disks, because even if you manage to expand them onto a real floppy disk, it will not be profitable to use them due to the large loss of the remaining space of the 720k floppy disk.

[Mark2008]

I had a zaxon built Toms 720 at one time, I loved that drive. Too bad I burned it out in a mishap a long time ago....anyway cause the toms come up so rarely, I did pick up the 351.

 

t's been in my closet for a while now...but I feel the need to spin up the Atari habit again....

 

 

[+CharlieChaplin]

Well,

 

LOA FILENAME.COM is quite long,

LOA F- is much shorter, alternatively

F Shift+Return also works quite fast

 

DOS XL and several others used LOA to load a ML file, Turbo-DOS has the option to save some typing (for lazy typers like me) and therefore gives shorter alternatives. Turbo-DOS can also use batchfiles, why they used .EXE instead of .BAT for extender, I really have no clue.

 

[+CharlieChaplin]

17 minutes ago, LessNick said:

By and large, I don't think a duplicator will help us here.

Most of the images are very old and designed for 40-track disk drives.

So in any case, we will have to manually create own disk compilation and copy the necessary programs onto them.

 

The only open question that remains is what to do with “closed” images, which do not have DOS as such and the files are a solid monoloader.

But I suspect there is nothing to do with such disks, because even if you manage to expand them onto a real floppy disk, it will not be profitable to use them due to the large loss of the remaining space of the 720k floppy disk.

 

Yeah,

harddisk users do have the same problem, it is not so easy to put a 90k bootdisk onto a 16MB harddisk partition. But nowadays they can use image loading with U1MB, so it is possible to load small 90k/130k/180k images from a harddisk partition (don't ask me how, I do not own U1MB).

 

Partitions are also possible for disk drives. With a Hyper-XF-OS one can have up to four partitions (ABCD) on a 3,5" diskette, they can be 90k, 130k or 180k and also be mixed. (Not all four partitions must have the same format, partition A can be 90k, partition B can be 130k, partition C can be 180k and partition D any of the three formats; they must be single-sided 90k or 130k or 180k however, it is not possible to have two partitions with 360k.)

 

So one can have e.g. 4x 90k or 4x 130k or 4x 180k or mixed partitions and therefore do not waste so much space on a 720k diskette. But this is only possible with a Hyper-XF-OS in the drive, which does not work with WD 1770 it seems. (And yes, this is also from Germany, from the same guy that made XDOS, QMEG-OS and other things.) Hyper-XF uses ultraspeed (3x SIO) instead of XF highspeed (2x SIO) however, so most XF utilities and applications that rely on XF highspeed will not work with Hyper-XF anymore; therefore many ultraspeed tools (from Happy, Speedy, USD) will work with it.

 

[LessNick]

10 hours ago, CharlieChaplin said:

Yeah,

harddisk users do have the same problem, it is not so easy to put a 90k bootdisk onto a 16MB harddisk partition. But nowadays they can use image loading with U1MB, so it is possible to load small 90k/130k/180k images from a harddisk partition (don't ask me how, I do not own U1MB).

In fact, there are no problems with loading disk images (for example, the same ATR) from other sources.

There are many different projects, for example my Astarta, there are two versions for Arduino and ESP32.

 

For me personally, it's important to feel that forgotten feeling of working with a real disk drive, like in the good old days.

 

Regarding dividing the floppy disk into blocks, yes, the idea is interesting, but it seems to me too complicated.

As I wrote above, I am basically satisfied with the speed of XDOS, and most games or programs can be found in XEX format and written to a floppy disk.

 

Regarding increasing the speed of communication with SIO, I also read that it is necessary to change the chip to 1772, and also make adjustments to the ROM.

Perhaps in the future, if there is such an opportunity, I will try to upgrade, but not today for sure

 

For now, from the nearest upgrade, I really want to attach a power switch

I would also really like to see an indicator of the current track. Especially since Zaxon had a video:

 

 

 

I hope this modification won't be too difficult.

Edited July 24 by LessNick

[+Larry]

Back around 1988 or 1989 IIRC, Bob Woolley, @bob1200xl published an article on upgrading the XF551 to 720K.  I found a reprint of the article online, and think it is still good reading today for this new drive, although it is already "upgraded."  Here is a ZIP of the reprint with both text and Word formats. 

Upgrading the XF551 to 720K by Bob Woolley.zip

[+Larry]

And here's a question about XF High Speed SIO -- is any special formatting (interleave) required to use XF HiSpd on this drive?  Or is the normal interleave adequate to use high speed?

[w1k]

COPY720 is great, i made video