Is an RF demodulator worth it?

[R3aper]

I currently have my Atari 2600 Jr. hooked up directly to my TV with a piece of RG6 cable connected to an RCA adapter.  I bypassed the old RF switch completely and I get a decent image, for RF anyways.  I have all of my other consoles hooked up to my Retrotink 5x.  Most of them are using s-video or component, but my NES is just using composite and it still looks great.  The Retrotink doesn't support RF connections.  Has anyone tried converting the signal with an RF demodulator and running that into an upscaler? A good quality demodulator tends to go close to $100 online.  I'm trying to figure out if it would be worth the investment, or if the improvement would even be noticeable.  I'm also concerned with input lag.  The Retrotink doesn't add any lag, but I'm not sure if an RF demodulator would.  I know my console can be modded, but I didn't want to do that if possible.

[Stephen Moss]

Do you want to keep your 2600 original as it cam form the factor or are you open of modifying it?

If you are open to modifying it then there are several composite mods avaialbe (I think UAV is the most popular, do a serch of AA), which would be much cheaper.

 

If not then, I don't know for sure but I cannot see why an RF demodulator would introduce significant lag, remember the TV has to demodulate the RF singal anyway so I can't see why an external demodualtor would do it singnificantly slower than the internal one.

 

If you don't want to modify your 2600, then if your TV or the Retrotink have HDMI inputs perhaps it would make more sense to spend what you would be spending on an external RF demodulator on a 2600+ instead and connect via HDMI.

[ubersaurus]

I use an RF demodulator as part of my video capture setup and I have no complaints. The signal looks about as good as you'd expect out of an RF source but it hooks into my Retrotink 5x upscaler and looks pretty good. I agree that if you are *only* looking at your 2600 and can make it happen a mod may be a good alternative, but certainly if your preference is stock hardware and/or you have other consoles that can only output RF than a demodulator is worthwhile.

 

Don't forget that most VCRs also have RF demodulators built in, too - that's a good, potentially cheaper solution if you don't mind the fact they're bigger than standalone demodulators.

[+Nathan Strum]

I have a Sony TU-1041 which I like very much.

 

They're a bit pricey right now, but I've seen them on eBay under $50 from time-to-time. Considerably smaller than a VCR, and a much higher cool factor.  

[+GoldLeader]

When I first got modded consoles so very long ago,  I couldn't believe the jump in quality!  To each his/her own,  but I'm not going back!  (Love my Retro-Tinks too!).   Take movies, for example;  I Still have a VCR hooked up and use it once in a (great) while...I can certainly get caught up in the story and characters etc., to where I'm captivated by it.  But to instantly compare a Blu-Ray to a VHS tape?  Much like a modded console,  you get happy from the get-go,  it all just looks so snazzy!  Makes it all the more enjoyable...

[R3aper]

I have a lot of game systems hooked up at the same time, but they are all hooked up to my Retrotink.  The Atari is the only one using RF.  All except the NES are using upgraded cables.  Either s-video or HD Retrovision component cables.  Even with the NES I noticed a big difference in video and sound quality, just by switching from RF to composite.  The Retrotink cleans up the image nicely.  I was just curious if anyone had experience hooking a stock Atari up to a Retrotink or other upscaler, and if it made a noticeable difference.  I know the demodulator isn't going to magically make the picture better.  It's only as good as the signal going into it, which is still RF.  However, I can't hook my Atari up to the Retrotink without changing the connection first.

 

This console is in excellent cosmetic condition so I didn't really want to drill holes into it.  I was looking for an easy way to improve the quality, but honestly I don't mind the RF too much.  It's still pretty clear after you ditch the RF switch.  When I was a kid I had multiple consoles daisy-chained together with RF switches, so it's still an improvement over what I had back then lol.

[+Nathan Strum]

57 minutes ago, R3aper said:

This console is in excellent cosmetic condition so I didn't really want to drill holes into it.

Jr's are kind-of a pain that way. I ended up cutting a small hole in this one for the cables to exit, although that Jr. was hardly mint when I started.

 

You might be able to find somewhere else to fish a couple of thin cables through - next to the RF jack or a vent slot. The cables I use were a bit too heavy to do that with.

[+-^CrossBow^-]

14 hours ago, R3aper said:

I have a lot of game systems hooked up at the same time, but they are all hooked up to my Retrotink.  The Atari is the only one using RF.  All except the NES are using upgraded cables.  Either s-video or HD Retrovision component cables.  Even with the NES I noticed a big difference in video and sound quality, just by switching from RF to composite.  The Retrotink cleans up the image nicely.  I was just curious if anyone had experience hooking a stock Atari up to a Retrotink or other upscaler, and if it made a noticeable difference.  I know the demodulator isn't going to magically make the picture better.  It's only as good as the signal going into it, which is still RF.  However, I can't hook my Atari up to the Retrotink without changing the connection first.

 

This console is in excellent cosmetic condition so I didn't really want to drill holes into it.  I was looking for an easy way to improve the quality, but honestly I don't mind the RF too much.  It's still pretty clear after you ditch the RF switch.  When I was a kid I had multiple consoles daisy-chained together with RF switches, so it's still an improvement over what I had back then lol.

A newer option that 'shouldn't' require drilling any extra holes, would be to look at the TIADigitizer in combination with the RGB2HDMI project? My understanding is that you install the digitzer between the mainboard and the TIA (Desoldering the TIA might be required), and that provides a 2 wire digital signal you can run to the RF RCA jack. You have to clip the wiring or the traces on the main board to the RF do to this, but the end result is that you get a 2 wire digital signal you run to a Rasp Pi setup that interprets the digital signal and provides you with actual HDMI output. 

 

The caveat to this, is that audio is NOT part of that setup so you still have to find or figure out a way to run that separately and then into an audio injector to combine it with the HDMI or just use an external AV receiver or speakers. My thought on that, is to remove the channel select switch and use the opening from that to run audio through.

 

Just a thought although I have NOT tested the results of this myself so I don't know yet how it handles the games with odd scanline counts and things like that.

 

[R3aper]

8 hours ago, -^CrossBow^- said:

A newer option that 'shouldn't' require drilling any extra holes, would be to look at the TIADigitizer in combination with the RGB2HDMI project? My understanding is that you install the digitzer between the mainboard and the TIA (Desoldering the TIA might be required), and that provides a 2 wire digital signal you can run to the RF RCA jack. You have to clip the wiring or the traces on the main board to the RF do to this, but the end result is that you get a 2 wire digital signal you run to a Rasp Pi setup that interprets the digital signal and provides you with actual HDMI output. 

 

The caveat to this, is that audio is NOT part of that setup so you still have to find or figure out a way to run that separately and then into an audio injector to combine it with the HDMI or just use an external AV receiver or speakers. My thought on that, is to remove the channel select switch and use the opening from that to run audio through.

 

Just a thought although I have NOT tested the results of this myself so I don't know yet how it handles the games with odd scanline counts and things like that.

 

I think I read up on that mod somewhere on the forums.  I also heard of some people having issues with the image when they go to s-video or higher.  If you're going through all that trouble to get HDMI it's probably better to just invest in a 2600+.  It can run the majority of games.  I don't really mind the RF, it's kinda how these systems are supposed to look IMO.  You don't notice the picture quality as much with blocky graphics on black backgrounds.

 

Just curious, how much better is the video output on a heavy sixer compared to a Jr.?  I was on the fence about getting one if I find something at a decent price.  If it's a noticeable difference in quality I would probably be satisfied with that, instead of doing mods or buying extra equipment.  I could get a console I want and improve my video quality at the same time.

[+-^CrossBow^-]

4 hours ago, R3aper said:

I think I read up on that mod somewhere on the forums.  I also heard of some people having issues with the image when they go to s-video or higher.  If you're going through all that trouble to get HDMI it's probably better to just invest in a 2600+.  It can run the majority of games.  I don't really mind the RF, it's kinda how these systems are supposed to look IMO.  You don't notice the picture quality as much with blocky graphics on black backgrounds.

 

Just curious, how much better is the video output on a heavy sixer compared to a Jr.?  I was on the fence about getting one if I find something at a decent price.  If it's a noticeable difference in quality I would probably be satisfied with that, instead of doing mods or buying extra equipment.  I could get a console I want and improve my video quality at the same time.

The only issue with s-video and higher on pretty much any console is if they used dithering to simulate additional colors on the screen. In the case of the 2600, no games on that system used such technics. But on the 7800 Tower Toppler and Jinks did. With Tower Toppler the use of s-video results in the graphics looking like a broken jail bar mess. But in reality it is the exact image that the console is putting out. But on RF or composite, the image creates artifacting and that results in false colors being shown on the TV due to how the graphics were programmed tricking the TV into generating what we see. So that is one thing that can happen. That said, there is a setting on the 7800GD cart that blends that effect into place and corrects for this. Additionally, the beta firmware that I have on my 2600+ also includes a similar blurring effect to compensate for the lack of artifacting and does a really good job of simulating that effect as well.

 

On my actual console, I use s-video for pretty much every game but if I do want to play Tower Toppler, then I swap over to my composite output and go with that. It is purely up to the individual on how they want to play their games and there isn't any correct way other than the way you prefer. For me, I prefer near emulator output quality on my modern flat panel from my original hardware. Because to me, composite and RF are much too dark and blurry looking even at 1080P upscaling on my TV in the game room. In some cases, on more modern consoles, the composite is made worse on modern displays due to the lack of comb filters not being present to remove and blend in the dot crawl that composite output has. So in some cases, using composite on games with text, was near impossible to reach on my modern display. That is where s-video and higher comes into play.

 

And yes, typically heavy and light six switchers produce better RF output due to the most of the main logic electronics being encased fully inside of a thick aluminum box they are shielded inside of. But with AV upgrades in place, that places the different models on even ground at that point.

 

[R3aper]

18 hours ago, -^CrossBow^- said:

The only issue with s-video and higher on pretty much any console is if they used dithering to simulate additional colors on the screen. In the case of the 2600, no games on that system used such technics. But on the 7800 Tower Toppler and Jinks did. With Tower Toppler the use of s-video results in the graphics looking like a broken jail bar mess. But in reality it is the exact image that the console is putting out. But on RF or composite, the image creates artifacting and that results in false colors being shown on the TV due to how the graphics were programmed tricking the TV into generating what we see. So that is one thing that can happen. That said, there is a setting on the 7800GD cart that blends that effect into place and corrects for this. Additionally, the beta firmware that I have on my 2600+ also includes a similar blurring effect to compensate for the lack of artifacting and does a really good job of simulating that effect as well.

 

On my actual console, I use s-video for pretty much every game but if I do want to play Tower Toppler, then I swap over to my composite output and go with that. It is purely up to the individual on how they want to play their games and there isn't any correct way other than the way you prefer. For me, I prefer near emulator output quality on my modern flat panel from my original hardware. Because to me, composite and RF are much too dark and blurry looking even at 1080P upscaling on my TV in the game room. In some cases, on more modern consoles, the composite is made worse on modern displays due to the lack of comb filters not being present to remove and blend in the dot crawl that composite output has. So in some cases, using composite on games with text, was near impossible to reach on my modern display. That is where s-video and higher comes into play.

 

And yes, typically heavy and light six switchers produce better RF output due to the most of the main logic electronics being encased fully inside of a thick aluminum box they are shielded inside of. But with AV upgrades in place, that places the different models on even ground at that point.

 

Thanks for the good response!  I'm aware of the blending techniques used in older games.  They used the blurring effect of old TVs to their advantage.  All of my consoles are stock inside, apart from some capacitor and voltage regulator replacements.  They are all hooked up to a Retrotink and upscaled to 1080p.  The ones using s-video are pretty close to emulator quality but with a slight blur.  The ones using component are basically emulator quality.  My Model 1 Genesis is pretty much pixel perfect with component.  However you do lose the blending effects.  Bushes in Sonic 2 look like checkerboards for example.  That doesn't bother me though, and I actually prefer the look of the sharper pixels.  However on some games the backgrounds are using alternating vertical colour bars when not properly blended, to compensate for the Genesis' on-screen colour limit.  That effect actually looks better on composite, because the colours blend as one.

 

With Atari the graphics are so simple I don't mind the older connections, as long as I can minimize interference.  I'll probably look into getting a heavy sixer at some point.  Even if it just reduced the interference I would be happy.  I also like the look of the heavy sixer, but the Jr. is pretty sleek.  My only problem is gonna be finding out where to put the darn thing.  It's much bigger than the Jr., and my TV stand is a little crowded as is lol.

 

 

[ubersaurus]

I'll note that I also use an unmodded 2600 Junior through an Ambery RF demodulator, which in turn runs into a Retrotink 5X for my video capture. You can see the results on my youtube channel: www.youtube.com/atariarchive if you want an idea how it'll look. I'm only outputting 720p since that's what my old ass capture card can manage at 60fps, but I've played it at 1080p and it still looks fine.

[R3aper]

3 hours ago, ubersaurus said:

I'll note that I also use an unmodded 2600 Junior through an Ambery RF demodulator, which in turn runs into a Retrotink 5X for my video capture. You can see the results on my youtube channel: www.youtube.com/atariarchive if you want an idea how it'll look. I'm only outputting 720p since that's what my old ass capture card can manage at 60fps, but I've played it at 1080p and it still looks fine.

I checked out some of your videos.  They're actually pretty well made, I'll have to check out your channel later!  It also helped a lot for comparison.  I watched your Haunted House video and paused it on the Superman footage.  Then I put Superman on the TV, and compared it to my computer monitor.  I'm actually getting a slightly better image than you with my Atari hooked up straight to the TV, and the timer at the top is clearer.  I'll probably leave it as-is for now.  The Retrotink might clean up the image a little, but it's not enough for me to justify buying a demodulator.  The comb filter gives great results on my NES, but that's hooked up with composite.  I noticed the colour looks a little off with Superman.  In your video the opening area has a pink sky, but on my console it is a blue sky.  Maybe it has something to do with the video processing.

 

I'm happy with my picture as it is, it's just that I get a little bit of wavy interference every now and then.  I'll probably take the money saved from a demodulator and invest in a heavy sixer to reduce interference.  I may try switching my cable first, though.  I'm currently using RG-6 satellite cable on my Atari.  I saw an article online comparing different cables on an Atari, and broadcast quality quad-shield RG-6 cable can make a big difference to the picture.  It's even better than the standard RG-6 that I have.  I'll just have to find somewhere to buy it online.

[EdgeFaction]

I've actually explored the topic of demodulators quite a bit (shameless plug, I just did a quick video on it below).

 

I thought for sure there would be some something that went from RF to HDMI in today's Alibaba world of electronics, but I had a hard time finding anything. Even to composite was trouble. I tried the Pinkish RF to HDMI which liked to work maybe 50% of the time and looked like garbage when it did work. I tried these converters from Amazon that are stuck on channel 3, which didn't pick up the signal at all without some serious boosting. I tried some of the pass through set top boxes which also didn't seem to want to dip down into the lower old over the air frequencies. Finally I happened upon the Contemporary Research line of tuners. The 232-MTA which goes from RF to Composite and the 232-ATSC Series (ATSC, ATSC+, ATSC + 1, ATSC+4, and ATSC 4K). These will tune to channel 3/4 just fine, and then output and upscale to HDMI. They were often used by cable provides to bridge the gap between Coax Frequencies to Digital HDMI and they are getting offloaded all over eBay. In the case of the 232-ATSC, 232-ATSC+ and ATSC+1 you can upscale to 480i, 480p, 720p, and 1080i. The 232-ATSC +4 will go to 1080p (it's my recommended model for the value), and the current model the 4K will do... 4K. All have component (RGB and Standard Component), Composite out as well. The +4 go from 40 to 80, the others you can generally find for a steal, sometime in bundles. (second shameless plug I'm selling all that I used for testing if you search for rf to hdmi on ebay).

 

It does do a little noise reduction and the picture quality is pretty good for not doing any modification. If you want mod-free experience that works with all the RF based consoles and allows you to easily capture/play on modern hardware I totally recommend these units. That said there is nothing better than an actual RGB modded console with a clean signal too!

 

 

 

[R3aper]

8 hours ago, EdgeFaction said:

I've actually explored the topic of demodulators quite a bit (shameless plug, I just did a quick video on it below).

 

I thought for sure there would be some something that went from RF to HDMI in today's Alibaba world of electronics, but I had a hard time finding anything. Even to composite was trouble. I tried the Pinkish RF to HDMI which liked to work maybe 50% of the time and looked like garbage when it did work. I tried these converters from Amazon that are stuck on channel 3, which didn't pick up the signal at all without some serious boosting. I tried some of the pass through set top boxes which also didn't seem to want to dip down into the lower old over the air frequencies. Finally I happened upon the Contemporary Research line of tuners. The 232-MTA which goes from RF to Composite and the 232-ATSC Series (ATSC, ATSC+, ATSC + 1, ATSC+4, and ATSC 4K). These will tune to channel 3/4 just fine, and then output and upscale to HDMI. They were often used by cable provides to bridge the gap between Coax Frequencies to Digital HDMI and they are getting offloaded all over eBay. In the case of the 232-ATSC, 232-ATSC+ and ATSC+1 you can upscale to 480i, 480p, 720p, and 1080i. The 232-ATSC +4 will go to 1080p (it's my recommended model for the value), and the current model the 4K will do... 4K. All have component (RGB and Standard Component), Composite out as well. The +4 go from 40 to 80, the others you can generally find for a steal, sometime in bundles. (second shameless plug I'm selling all that I used for testing if you search for rf to hdmi on ebay).

 

It does do a little noise reduction and the picture quality is pretty good for not doing any modification. If you want mod-free experience that works with all the RF based consoles and allows you to easily capture/play on modern hardware I totally recommend these units. That said there is nothing better than an actual RGB modded console with a clean signal too!

That sounds interesting! I know equipment made for broadcasting companies tends to be made better.  I was actually looking at a Sony tu-1041u.  They're supposed to be pretty good, and I love the look of old A/V equipment like that lol.  With the setup that you have, do you notice any input lag?  This type of equipment is usually made with video processing in mind, not gaming.  Also, would it be better to output to composite from the device you have and then use a Retrotink for the upscaling instead?

[EdgeFaction]

I haven't experienced any noticeable lag. Astrosmash feels buttery smooth like I remember. I'll try to see if I can do a more formal test. I'm sure the retrotink does a better job of cleaning things up. I use the 232-ATSC 4 just to have something to test quickly with on my workbench as I work on / test consoles and to record. For my own personal setup I have a RGB chip that goes through a HD Retrovision Cable to component into a RetroTink 4k.

 

The device would be more ideal for someone who wants to spend $45 to get RF to HDMI rather than $400+ for the whole setup.