Compairing the Commodre 64 with an Atari 8 bit Computer

[TMR]

the only once who seem to know both machines might be archer mclean as he coded both versions of international karate?...

 

Yup, and Dropzone as well. By all accounts, he preferred the Atari hardware to the C64.

 

i remember andrew uridium talking in a happy computer interview that he likes atari machines as well... but we never have seen any code from him on our machine?

 

Braybrook was a commercial coder, he made his living (what little he earnt, if the stories are to be believed - lots of corporate greed going on there) from the games he wrote; considering that he was aiming at the U.K. market from around 1984/5 (after a spell on the Dragon) the Atari was never very strong over here so the chances are that the decision was financial. i seem to remember Martin Walker said something similar in an interview, he did some work on the Atari too (and wore an Atari t-shirt for a couple of publicity stills for his programming diary in Zzap!) but the market wasn't viable.

[Heaven/TQA]

wasn't 100% sure about dropzone if macclean coded the c64 version as well or just supervised the conversion...

 

i mean a lot of activision programmers might have coded on both machines...

[raindog]

All right, let's cut to the chase. I grew up with a C64, and loved it. Given that obvious bias, everyone needs to buy one of each.

 

Or at least do a little research using emulation.... hell, even the Coco 3 could do a few things neither the 800XL or C64 could....

[Bryan]

hell, even the Coco 3 could do a few things neither the 800XL or C64 could....

 

I would hope so. The CoCo3 came out in 1986. That puts it in the ST/Amiga timeframe.

 

-Bry

[Wrathchild]

I think I'd be right in saying that the cassette was the most commonly used format in the UK (Europe too?) and I also think the A8 would have benefitted from some form of software "turbo" loader.

[TMR]

I think I'd be right in saying that the cassette was the most commonly used format in the UK (Europe too?) and I also think the A8 would have benefitted from some form of software "turbo" loader.

 

Yes to the U.K., although i can't comment about Europe for the A8 but the C64 was disk-based more often than not. On average, the A8 was looking at a loading time of 25-30 minutes compared to ten for a slow tape turbo scheme on the C64 (the fastest turbo i'm aware of was the one used by Martech for Crazy Comets which got the entire game into RAM in under 20 tape counts including the leader!). Tape loading speed and the prohibitive price of drives were two of the main reasons i didn't stick with my 800XL in the day to be honest...

 

Actually, whilst we're on the subject are there any decent tape turbo schemes around for the A8 'cos Reaxion may need one if Cronosoft are up for putting it out on tape...?

[ZylonBane]

SID is better than the POKEY

...for music. For game sounds, the POKEY's four channels with identical capabilities is a clear winner.

 

Three channels with filters, a large selection of waveforms and the option of ring modulation versus four channels... i stand by my original statement. =-)

You're still stuck on music generation. The availability of four identical channels is invaluable for writing game sound drivers, since the driver can just grab any available channel for any sound effect. In an era where most games consisted of blowing things up, the C64 was stuck with a chip that could only make white noise effects on one channel. POKEY wasn't very musical, but it was great at putting out arcadey-sounding effects. You have to think there's a reason why Atari, even during its most extravagant days, regularly used POKEYs for sound in their arcade games.

 

I haven't played a lot of C64 games, but my distant memory is that they tended to sound like a Casio keyboard.

[Fröhn]

You're still stuck on music generation. The availability of four identical channels is invaluable for writing game sound drivers, since the driver can just grab any available channel for any sound effect. In an era where most games consisted of blowing things up, the C64 was stuck with a chip that could only make white noise effects on one channel. POKEY wasn't very musical, but it was great at putting out arcadey-sounding effects. You have to think there's a reason why Atari, even during its most extravagant days, regularly used POKEYs for sound in their arcade games.

 

you're completely wrong here, the SID is able to choose every waveform for every channel.

 

I haven't played a lot of C64 games, but my distant memory is that they tended to sound like a Casio keyboard.

 

this quote might point to something else: what you heard was a plus/4 and not a c64. that one can indeed only do noise on one of it's two channels, and the sound is the worst you could imagine.

[ZylonBane]

Then why is it that every description of SID I've ever read has said, "3 sounds channels, 1 noise channel"?

[sack-c0s]

I accidentally started world war 3 on a C64 IRC channel with this suggestion, but stay with me on this one..

 

If I had to choose the perfect 8-bit machine to code for off the top of my head it would pretty much be a C64/Atari 8-bit hybrid, pretty much a 50/50 split, with the odd bit taken from elsewhere. I'd have to ask for:

 

* Z80 CPU (clocked to around 4mhz to bring it up to around the same theoretical speed as a 2mhz 6502)

 

* 6581 SID (But with more controllable filters if you please)

 

* VIC-II style sprites, with c64 style bitmap modes with the A8 Colour Depth (not sure of how that'd work from a technical standpoint as each attribute block would then be 32 bits)

 

* A8-style Display lists (Giving DLIs, mode changes and address control like the A8 has)

 

* NES/Gameboy style scrolling (wrapping screen memory, meaning only new data need be shifted). again not sure how you could have display lists AND this. only really needed on the X axis, as the Y axis could be handled in display list construction

 

* STA WSYNC is a godsend, that would be needed

 

* Acorn/BBC speed disk drives

 

at the end of the day I do like the A8 and the 64 for their little quirks and differences.

 

although I am growing to hate the sinclair spectrum right now...

[ZylonBane]

Don't forget an Atari-style OS. One of the first true device-oriented operating systems.

[sack-c0s]

Don't forget an Atari-style OS. One of the first true device-oriented operating systems.

 

i'd have to agree there on the basis the 64 barely even *has* an OS:)

 

but if I wanted a cool OS I'd have to go with the Acorn/BBC OS (i love the idea of having an assembler in the basic), but for enough OS to be comfortable, and to be banked out when not needed I think the Atari one would do better.

[Goochman]

I played alot of C64 stuff at my neighbors house and though I was very jealous at the amount of software released but the noise effects sounded very 'Casio' like

[ApolloBoy]

I played alot of C64 stuff at my neighbors house and though I was very jealous at the amount of software released but the noise effects sounded very 'Casio' like

 

http://www.hvsc.c64.org/

 

You will never see the SID chip the same way again...

[TMR]

Then why is it that every description of SID I've ever read has said, "3 sounds channels, 1 noise channel"?

 

No, i've never worked out why they say that either - my ye olde sound generator cycled through the channels like you described and could quite happily chuck three white noise sounds out simultaneously. The only waveform with limitations is ring modulation, it uses two channels and there are limits to which channel orders can be used and after that all three channels can have any waveform or ADSR envelope they feel like using. The description "three sound and one noise" is actually the VIC20's abilities...

[raindog]

hell, even the Coco 3 could do a few things neither the 800XL or C64 could....

I would hope so. The CoCo3 came out in 1986. That puts it in the ST/Amiga timeframe.

Hmm, couldn't have been that, then. Must have been a Coco 2 that a friend of mine had.... it had a "real" keyboard, but certainly didn't have 128K of RAM. We all got our machines around xmas '83, except for the creepy kids who had TRS-80 Model III's or Apple II's already

[Fröhn]

Then why is it that every description of SID I've ever read has said, "3 sounds channels, 1 noise channel"?

 

there is no such thing as a "noise channel" on SID. every of the three channels can choose any of the SIDs waveforms.

[Goochman]

I played alot of C64 stuff at my neighbors house and though I was very jealous at the amount of software released but the noise effects sounded very 'Casio' like

 

http://www.hvsc.c64.org/

 

You will never see the SID chip the same way again...

 

Ok,

Downloaded everything, listened to about 10 tunes and came away with the impression that it sounds like the midi chip in my phone - The converstation was around gaming effects vs music and the C64 w/SID to me sounded like a 'casio' keyboard with regard to these type sounds.

[TMR]

Downloaded everything, listened to about 10 tunes and came away with the impression that it sounds like the midi chip in my phone - The converstation was around gaming effects vs music and the C64 w/SID to me sounded like a 'casio' keyboard with regard to these type sounds.

 

Ah, so ten tunes out of tens of thousands is a good balance...? =-)

 

The directories you want to be checking are Ben Daglish (check Thing Bounces Back in particular for sound effects), David Whittaker (IO does most of his sound library), Charles Deenen (Double Dragon has some interesting fight sounds, Jeroen Tel (for Robocop 3 amongst others and the titles theme is excellent) or Sean Connolly (Turbocharge since it runs thouse sounds during the game with a 3 channel tune going). For samples, check Rob Hubbard again (Mega Apocalypse and I, Ball although Hubbard didn't do the samples himself they're included with his music) and in GAMES/S-Z is Slimey's Mine by Simon Pick.

 

And if you can honestly listen to that lot and repeat the comment about the Casio keyboard, i'm sure someone can recommend a good hearing specialist. =-)

[Goochman]

Downloaded everything, listened to about 10 tunes and came away with the impression that it sounds like the midi chip in my phone - The converstation was around gaming effects vs music and the C64 w/SID to me sounded like a 'casio' keyboard with regard to these type sounds.

 

Ah, so ten tunes out of tens of thousands is a good balance...? =-)

 

The directories you want to be checking are Ben Daglish (check Thing Bounces Back in particular for sound effects), David Whittaker (IO does most of his sound library), Charles Deenen (Double Dragon has some interesting fight sounds, Jeroen Tel (for Robocop 3 amongst others and the titles theme is excellent) or Sean Connolly (Turbocharge since it runs thouse sounds during the game with a 3 channel tune going). For samples, check Rob Hubbard again (Mega Apocalypse and I, Ball although Hubbard didn't do the samples himself they're included with his music) and in GAMES/S-Z is Slimey's Mine by Simon Pick.

 

And if you can honestly listen to that lot and repeat the comment about the Casio keyboard, i'm sure someone can recommend a good hearing specialist. =-)

 

Ill check those songs out - Remember, I downloaded about 50,000 songs which I dont have time to listen to. 5 of the songs I previously picked had 'effects' in them outside of music. A better comparison would be the midi chip in my phone - Sounding like a Casio isnt a bad thing, the music on the SID is great however getting and engine or explosion sound never sounded just right on the real C64 which I played alot at my neighbors house.

 

I just listened to Things Bounce Back and Turbocharge - Again, the sound effects sound like instruments making them IMHO, not pure 'noise'. They sound like something that the guy who created 'Axel F' would do - damn, what was his name again?

[TMR]

I just listened to Things Bounce Back and Turbocharge - Again, the sound effects sound like instruments making them IMHO, not pure 'noise'.

 

Well, it's a bit difficult to quantify "sound" versus "noise", some sound drivers run the effects independently whilst others use the music driver itself to power sounds so that they have more control and multiple channels available. i know that Turbocharge uses two routines for example, since i was "there when the sound engine was written; similarly, Flairsoft's Turn 'N' Burn and Quota by Chris Young both use my effects engine (the SID files only contain the tunes) and that pays no attention to musical scales at all - in fact, it doesn't even deal with the low byte of the frequency! =-)

 

Double Dragon goes quite a way to simulating voices (the "urgh" sound, "tune" 4 in the SID) using ring modulation, as someone who has played with sound as a non-musician, that impressed me, as did both Hunter's Moon and Citadel since they use a similar technique to get some almost speech like effects, particularly the former (although the effects are, again, not in the SID files). JCH managed something i consider very impressive on these lines, one of the Orcus soundtracks actually sounds quite like a vocoded voice singing the words "give it up" in the music; it's not sample quality, but the impression is there and it's taking about $20 rasterlines max.

 

They sound like something that the guy who created 'Axel F' would do - damn, what was his name again?

 

Harold Faltermeyer, but that's probably because musicians made the sounds in all of the cases i listed. i don't feel that either machine is particularly "realistic", but as long as the general impression is given that the Ferrari is power sliding around a corner or the star battle cruiser is charging it's mega weapon, the job's a good 'un in my book.

[starraider]

Well, it might be that the sid is better than the pokey or it might be not... But I don't think we have anything to complain about.

 

The pokey makes great music and sound fx. I always have that arcade feeling when I am playing games on the atari, especially when the Atari is plugged into a big TV with the volume turned up

 

In this discussion there is only one thing to say:

Have you played Atari today?

[Fröhn]

Ill check those songs out - Remember, I downloaded about 50,000 songs which I dont have time to listen to.  5 of the songs I previously picked had 'effects' in them outside of music.  A better comparison would be the midi chip in my phone

 

it's like everywhere: 90% is complete junk, 9% is good and the remaining 1% are the true masterpieces. if you randomly pick tunes out of 50000 sids you will end up with the junk in 90% of the cases.

[Schmutzpuppe]

Have you an example for good sfx on c64?

While I love c64 music (since galway) I also never liked the sound fx much (well the heartbeat in winter games was cool).

But this has nothing to do with the number of channels.  

A good example of great sfx on the A8 is imho Alley cat.

 

Hmm, let me 'ave a quick thunk and i'll pull some random examples from memory; Martin Walker's effects for Armalyte has are the fairly typical shedload of bangs and thuds which sound good with the bass up and the firing and bigger explosions are very meaty and Walker's own games Hunter's Moon and Citadel both have some great pulse width and ring mod stuff. David Whittaker had what almost amounts to a library of spacey sounds, most of which turn up in my favourite game of all time IO.

 

If we're limiting it to "real world" sounds as opposed to sci-fi stuff, Last V8 has a nice klaxon, Thing Bounces Back (Coil Cop in NTSC-Land) makes some lovely ring modulated "boing!" noises during play (as does the titles tune =-) or the dire first (as opposed to dire second) conversion of Double Dragon put out by Melbourne House has some nice if slightly unusual punch and reaction sounds.

 

And as far as channels go, if we're including sampled sound then Simon Pick's Slimey's Mine shouts it's head off without slowing the (fairly busy) game down (it even snores when paused!) and the fabby Turbocharge by Chris Butler manages to simulate four channel sound without using note multiplexing or samples; listen to the SID file tunes two to six are all in two channels and the sound effects (tune seven onwards) play at the same time with no drop-off. The sound for the last one was done by Cosine by the way, under the name Sonix Systems (our music division =-) Our own Cyberwing does a nice line in spacey sounds too, but it's best to play the game rather than use the SID.

Thanks for the info TMR, downloaded most of the mentioned games (couldn't find cyberwing).

I guess it's also matter of taste, I wasn't so impressed and would say it doesn't sounds superior to the pokey (but it sounds different).

I also downloaded dropzone to compare the sfx (dropzone because it think both versions make good use of the machine capacities).

There is a quite minor difference between the sounds but I would prefer the a8 version (explosion and sound during the level is imho better) maybe some of you like the c64 sound more.

What I really liked was Armalyte, it's a fun game

[Heaven/TQA]

wasn't cyberwing a game from TMR? so you should check cosine's website...

 

i love the explosion in dropzone when you loose a life... it is little bit similar to the gravitar bomb in episode 2... it has a little "lag" before the explosion "hits your ears"... i was little disappointed that the c64 dropzone hadn't this kind of "bang"... but this is just my personal feeling...