Schmutzpuppe Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 Hmm, some statements which i cannot leave uncommented: [...] Hm, maybe right, maybe wrong. I just copy/paste it from the NES faq (I also posted the link http://www.djbsports.com/faq/nes_faq.html/ ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregory DG Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 Anyone with two eyes can see that SMB and Scrapyard Dog are very similar games. Shoot, someone could probably hack SD into a SMB clone. It doesn't take an engineering genius to see that. It's like claiming you couldn't do Virtua Fighter 2 for the Genesis, even though it was made with sprites instead of polygons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inky Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 Anyone with two eyes can see that SMB and Scrapyard Dog are very similar games. Shoot, someone could probably hack SD into a SMB clone. It doesn't take an engineering genius to see that. It's like claiming you couldn't do Virtua Fighter 2 for the Genesis, even though it was made with sprites instead of polygons. My main problem with Scrayard Dog is that the main character is so damned ugly! Hack it into Mario, or something cute at LEAST! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 quite interesting thread...sorry for not contributing at the beginning.... but guys... have some of you ever touched nes programming or 7800??? if so then you would realise that the 7800 is POWERFUL... (am i right eric... ) and i played around little bit with analmux' mario clone and this was just a quick hack together: http://www.atariage.com/forums/viewtopic.p...=35280&start=75 and this is NOT a photoshop fake...it's real (poor i have to admit) quick hacking code together... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregory DG Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 Very nice, very nice... I think subconsciously I knew about that project, but forgot about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigo Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 but guys... have some of you ever touched nes programming or 7800??? if so then you would realise that the 7800 is POWERFUL... (am i right eric... ) Yup, and i never said, the 7800 is weak. People just don´t realize that both systems are so different, if you ever coded the NES, you should know that. Your screen shots already show the problematics. You have to painfully implement attribute simulation, which means canning indirect mode (since it only supports a global 1/4 colour palette der DLL), which means having a Sprite for EACH background tile. And them come the Sprites using the painful Holey DMA method, which means changing parameters for every 8 pixel row for each Sprite. If you say the 7800 is POWERFUL, then think of an efficient method to show its advantages, instead of copying NES games. That would be the only way to win against it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raindog Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 Space Harrier would be another one the 7800 should handle better than the NES, but of course the SMS already went there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigo Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 Space Harrier would be another one the 7800 should handle better than the NES, but of course the SMS already went there. Great Idea! The 7800 should be able to beat the SMS, since the SMS has also the same sprite Problem like the NES. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigo Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 Space Harrier would be another one the 7800 should handle better than the NES' date=' but of course the SMS already went there.[/quote'] Great Idea! The 7800 should be able to beat the SMS, since the SMS has also the same sprite Problem like the NES. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregory DG Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 Your screen shots already show the problematics. You have to painfully implement attribute simulation, which means canning indirect mode (since it only supports a global 1/4 colour palette der DLL), which means having a Sprite for EACH background tile. And them come the Sprites using the painful Holey DMA method, which means changing parameters for every 8 pixel row for each Sprite. So instead of just saying "good work" you write this negative drivel instead? Very nice indeed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigo Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 Your screen shots already show the problematics. You have to painfully implement attribute simulation, which means canning indirect mode (since it only supports a global 1/4 colour palette der DLL), which means having a Sprite for EACH background tile. And them come the Sprites using the painful Holey DMA method, which means changing parameters for every 8 pixel row for each Sprite. So instead of just saying "good work" you write this negative drivel instead? Very nice indeed. Do you always try the personal/emotional way, when you do not understand what people are talking about? Don´t you have any better arguments? Besides, it was not meant in a negative way but constructive. But i think that Heaven can answer for himself on this issue, don´t you think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 the basic demo from which i have ripped the sm data simulates attributes as well so its not "magic" so even a nice atari 800 port of super mario is written now so an a7800 version would be imho 99% of the NES original... i have to say that i never touched NES but gameboy so i assume that they are similiar from concepts point of view... tile maps are same like the indirect mode, sprites can be handled with MARIA and some nice and fast sprite engine, scrolling is possible so i don'T see why a 7800 mario port should not be possible. ok...you have to deal with less colours but this can be done as well... unfortunatly MARIA has no "h-" and "v-flip" option for sprites which helps you on nintendo consoles saving data for sprites & tiles... i am missing a nice horizontal scroller shoot'em up... like gradius or delta... is it right that you can'T access directly VRAM + tile sets? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigo Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 the basic demo from which i have ripped the sm data simulates attributes as well so its not "magic" Why are people always quoting things i didn´t say? so even a nice atari 800 port of super mario is written now so an a7800 version would be imho 99% of the NES original... I would be delighted to see the results. i have to say that i never touched NES but gameboy so i assume that they are similiar from concepts point of view... Yup, the NES PPU is much the same, it just lacks the window layer, but has colour registers and supports colour attributes. Ah, and it has twice as much addressing space (16K). tile maps are same like the indirect mode Sure, but without colour attributes. , sprites can be handled with MARIA and some nice and fast sprite engine, scrolling is possible so i don'T see why a 7800 mario port should not be possible. It is somehow possible, but as i already said, from a certain kind of complexity on you HAVE to make sacrifices. ok...you have to deal with less colours but this can be done as well... Yeah, but it makes handling the screen more complex. And, going back to the start of the thread, which is about examining how good the 7800 could handle those popular games, sorry, it´s MUCH easier doing this on the NES. No matter how well your code would be optimized, you would always get better results if you would optimize NES code to the same kind of level. Note: this does NOT say it is impossible on the 7800. i am missing a nice horizontal scroller shoot'em up... like gradius or delta... Funny, while playing with the 7800er hardware, i had something similar in mind. But since the Space Harrier idea was mentioned here... is it right that you can'T access directly VRAM + tile sets? Yup, only through two registers and only when the PPU is in blanking state. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricBall Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 Is it just me or has this topic turned into Aliens vs Predator? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregory DG Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 Don´t you have any better arguments? My arguement was made and validated by the demo. Someone said it couldn't be done, I disagreed. Do you have trouble understanding disagreements made in plain language? Besides, it was not meant in a negative way but constructive. Cool! Maybe you work with Heaven to complete it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DracIsBack Posted February 20, 2004 Author Share Posted February 20, 2004 Guys, be nice! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mot Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 Is it just me or has this topic turned into Aliens vs Predator? I don't think "Aliens vs Predator" can be done on the 7800. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockman_x_2002 Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 I don't think "Aliens vs Predator" can be done on the 7800. Not in a first-person shooter form. But perhaps as a platformer game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cootster Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 Anyone with two eyes can see that SMB and Scrapyard Dog are very similar games. Shoot, someone could probably hack SD into a SMB clone. It doesn't take an engineering genius to see that. They're in the same genre, yes, but it would be far more than a simple hack . . . If someone had the tools to do an SD hack, I'd suggest Commander Keen, which it far more closely resembles. Yes, this one genre of game is far more capable to be pulled off on the NES, but I don't think most others are. Certainly, 3D-esque effects like Ballblazer's are far easier on the 7800. The NES would struggle with Solaris, most likely. When did tiles become the more widely-used graphic mode? I know the CV can use tiles in a similar fashion, and you could almost say the O2 does as well, but were tile-based graphics widely used in arcades and on computers before the Famicom/NES? It's like claiming you couldn't do Virtua Fighter 2 for the Genesis, even though it was made with sprites instead of polygons. No, they did it, and it's pretty good, actually. Too easy on single-player, though . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cootster Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 Actually, I don't see why a quality FPS is all that impossible on the 7800 . . . In fact, if the descriptions of the way it works are correct, I'd think it'd be less complicated than a side-scroller . . . The success of the NES and flopping of the 7800 came down pretty much to two things: The shift in gaming styles towards deeper, more involved games, which seemed to largely pass by Atari, and the fact that Atari management, as probably every other executive team at the company since Bushnell himself stepped down, was corrupt and short-sighted. They were competing with themselves in 3 directions (and since there are a few late 2600 games that were even better than what the 7800 had, Solaris standing out most, and the XEGS might have been better suited for the crowd who "just wanted to be different", the 7800 got the brown end of the stick), and had a handheld system, to boot. The Lynx failed, despite being better than any other pre-Nomad handheld, for the same reasons. Unfortunately, unlike the Lynx, the 7800 doesn't have a homebrew scene at all . . . If this SMB clone is finished, wouldn't it be the first completely HB title for it? . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregory DG Posted February 21, 2004 Share Posted February 21, 2004 It's like claiming you couldn't do Virtua Fighter 2 for the Genesis, even though it was made with sprites instead of polygons. No, they did it, and it's pretty good, actually. Too easy on single-player, though . . . Re-read my quote. I said VF2 *was* made for the Genesis. :wink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JB Posted February 21, 2004 Share Posted February 21, 2004 Yes, this one genre of game is far more capable to be pulled off on the NES, but I don't think most others are. Certainly, 3D-esque effects like Ballblazer's are far easier on the 7800. The NES would struggle with Solaris, most likely. They DID make a Ballblazer port for the FamiCom. It sucked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DracIsBack Posted February 21, 2004 Author Share Posted February 21, 2004 The success of the NES and flopping of the 7800 came down pretty much to two things: The shift in gaming styles towards deeper, more involved games, which seemed to largely pass by Atari, and the fact that Atari management, as probably every other executive team at the company since Bushnell himself stepped down, was corrupt and short-sighted. While I blame the Tramiels for causing a lot of the 7800's difficulties, I do find that a lot of Atari fans beat up on them without walking a mile in their shoes. When Jack Tramiel bought Atari, the company was in utter shambles. It had lost $2 million a day and was this giant bloat of an organization. The entire video game industry had crashed, retailers hated Atari, many of Atari's hardware and software competitors were on the verge of collapsing etc etc etc. Given all of those things, I totally get why Jack Tramiel wanted to sell computers, not video games. Hell, the industry blamed Atari for the crash. In 1984, there were millions of unsold games stuff in the channel that stores couldn't give away or return. Stores like SEARS lost millions because Warner Atari made them buy a year's supply in advance and didn't give them the option to return. So, 1984 comes and goes as "the year video games on consoles died". In late 1985, a little company called Nintendo starts making a bit of a splash in test markets, so Atari tries also to test market in 1986 by resurrecting the 7800 and 2600 jr. They do it cheaply - almost nothing on marketing, few games, even cheap black and white game labels. Since video games almost bankrupted Atari a year and a half earlier, I can understand the caution. While they did waste resources on the XEGS, it may have been considered the cheapest and easiest way to kill a couple of birds with one stone. Had it been successful, it would have solved a bunch of Atari's problems. It would have ressurected the (then dying) 8-bit software scene. It would have been cheaper to develop competitive games to the NES than making titles for the 7800 with disk based games already in existance and a familiar architecture. It would have gotten the 8-bit back into stores which had stopped carrying it. And, it would have helped Atari move the millions of parts, peripherals and programs inherited from Warner Atari's overspending. While I too wish that the Tramiels had rolled the 7800 out with a multimillion dollar ad campaign, had games like SCRAPYARD DOG in 1987 etc, I also understand why they were cautious. video games almost killed Atari. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HawgWyld Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 After these discussions, I can align to the fact that the NES was stronger in generating tile based scrollers. However, I'm definitely NOT convinced that we ever saw the best that the 7800 could do or saw a game that really pushed the system, due to it's relatively short life and niche sales. Agreed. The current crop of 7800 games use the system in a very straightforward way. I'm sure that if it had been more popular, we would have seen some much more impressive titles. -Bry Software. At the end of the day, that's what it all boils down to, isn't it? The NES had the games people wanted, the 7800 didn't. Easy as that. Heck, if hardware was the only consideration, the Jaguar wouldn't have had trouble against the SNES and Genesis, right? And, the PS2 wouldn't still be outselling the xbox and Game Cube. I'm inclined to agree the 7800 had potential which was never truly released. Too bad that didn't happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Draikar Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 Im new to this but from what I remember from the 1980's as I was a game player the Nintendo had better games and easier to find in stores like Toys R' Us or Targets in the mid west, I always wanted an Atari but never seen any so I always guess they went out of business after the 2600 system. I finally found an new Atari called Atari XE system at Toys R' Us or that mid west store copy of Toys R' Us called something like Children's Palace. That system cost much more then a Nintendo and I never seen games for it other then the ones we got with the system. Odd I never hit this system or dropped it and it stopped working less then a year. I think the 7800 needed more games and more advertisement from what I know as a consumer... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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