When creating a 3D game ....

[emkay]

... like Wolfenstein 3D for the A8.

What would you expect?

 

-Resolution?

-Colorcount?

-Enemycount?

-Music?

-digitized speech?

...?

[CPUWIZ]

-framerate!

[emkay]

-framerate!  

 

Yes... forgot to mention

[Dracon]

I expect decent playability !

 

Is there any one being written now, by the way?

[emkay]

I expect decent playability !    

 

Playability is given, when framecount and enemycount is correct.... I think

 

Is there any one being written now, by the way?  

 

Well... this time i think about "Vector" and I am pretty shure it is not possible to create a "fun"-game on this engine.

 

 

In another thread we discussed a very similar object, but there was no consense.

 

I AM pretty shure it is possible to create a "wolf 3d" like game with the max. Resolution of 192 in horizontal... and

100 with up to 200 pixel in vertical, by using a DL-mix of the Antic modes 4 & 5 at up to 25fps on PAL machines

PM should be used in the lowest resolution for walls and object overlays for gaining up to 11 colors per line.

At the "scoreboard" some G2F techniques may be used for hires though.

When Using a 4 line Scoreboard and using Antic 5 you would have to handle 160 screen lines which means 80 Antic Mode lines or 10 Antic mode 5 lines....

 

 

So the screen to handle would be only 400bytes. To manage the movement, it is not always necessary to change all 400 bytes... Mostly some line draws will be enough to create a new frame.

In addition, PM can be used for underlays and with a "small poke" the whole wall has moved...

 

For anti aliasing the Lineup characters can be changed.:

 

Normally you have blocks:

 

#

##

###

####

 

But you can do a lineup with the characters you draw:

 

#

##

###

###

/###7

###/

##/

#/

/

 

and so on...

[Wrathchild]

Resolution of 192 in horizontal... and 100 with up to 200 pixel in vertical, by using a DL-mix of the Antic modes 4 & 5

How's about 128 * 128, that could make the math a bit simpler/quicker - unless you go for something like a bank-switched cart where all the possibilties are stored in lookup tables

[emkay]

Resolution of 192 in horizontal... and 100 with up to 200 pixel in vertical, by using a DL-mix of the Antic modes 4 & 5

How's about 128 * 128, that could make the math a bit simpler/quicker - unless you go for something like a bank-switched cart where all the possibilties are stored in lookup tables

 

hmmm... my intentions are more to go to full witdh (48 chars) when there is enough time available... so you can play the game on a 16:9 TV

 

I think you don't have to use multiple pre shifting, when using the screen setup at this "low" resolution" that is physically 40*10

I think you don't even have to use more than 3 charbase settings and charsets, because you have multiple chars on the screen that are always the same.

Just leave one half (or so) free for changings inside the character memory. Build clusters with this characters and you can move the "texture" on the whole wall by changing 4, 8, 16 .... bytes.

 

And, as I mentioned before.... PM Underlay in the lowest resolution will give "fullscreen movement" by setting some registers.

[Wrathchild]

I checked the Elite math and it uses Log-tables to make the multiplication and division pretty fast. Line drawing is standard Bresenham's, but optimised to do vertical and horizontal lines quickly. However I think the Central/Eastern European guys could have quicker algorithms.

[emkay]

I checked the Elite math and it uses Log-tables to make the multiplication and division pretty fast. Line drawing is standard Bresenham's, but optimised to do vertical and horizontal lines quickly. However I think the Central/Eastern European guys could have quicker algorithms.

 

Where's the problem?

Elite works in hires or color mode with 128*128?

This means 16386 dots to handle

 

The math in such Graphicsengine in Antic e has 400 dots to handle plus the comparision of the angle to adjust the charmem ...

And after comparision, the engine approx. would have to set 3(or 5) different depth-steps and five different angles of :0 22 45 67 90 degrees which will be fairly enough..

So let's have an approximately summary of 2000 dots to handle for the screen, but only 400 dots need a 3D calculation at max. ...plus the more in speed because there is no Antic-DMA every second scanline....and PMg for filling areas.

[+davidcalgary29]

Can MidiMaze be hacked? It's already a great FPS that boasts a good framerate, great playability, and networking possibilities, as well.

[Cybernoid]

Resolution of 192 in horizontal... and 100 with up to 200 pixel in vertical, by using a DL-mix of the Antic modes 4 & 5 at up to 25fps on PAL machines  

 

Why would you mix Antic Modes 4 & 5? Isn't the only difference between 4 & 5 is the number of lines used per char?

 

Is this to save memory if you know that the graphics in that region do not need the high-detail? Say, use mode 5 for sky (more lines per char) and mode 4 for close-up objects?

 

Just curious....as a newbie A8 game developer....

 

--Chris

[emkay]

 

Why would you mix Antic Modes 4 & 5?  Isn't the only difference between 4 & 5 is the number of lines used per char?  

 

 

 

It is a question of practical usage.

Lower resolution needs less memory and less bytes to handle. And the so called "cycle stealing" will not happen every second scanline when using mode 5, so the CPU can calculate faster.

Generally using mode 5 will double the overall performance compared to mode 4.

Mode 4 may be used temporarily when "goodies"or "secret rooms" are appearing, to enhance the details...

[emkay]

For a better understanding I created a virtual Antic 5 Screen with 10 lines of it

So you have a graphics resolution of 160x80

 

The "Scene" actually has 117 different chars in use. To give the background wall a texture 5 more would be necessary to use.

 

Some players are used for underlays...and some DLIs are used for color changings.

[Heaven/TQA]

when you are talking about W3d clone do you think of a "asskicker" Wolf-clone (with 360 degree turns) or like in alternate reality or bard's tale?

 

i havent touched asskicker for years... just had a look... still very impression... an atari classic demo milestone... 1st big production using mode9+ with "16 bit effects"... even the music is impressive... (cedyn...) even you don't like this kind of hardcore techno...

 

for the american guys...check it out... wasn't konop (the coder...) in the motion blur part? i think it's a pic of him there...

 

ah... and the demo is 128k only... and you can move the arrow at the menu with the cursor keys and start the demo with return...

asskickers.zip

[Heaven/TQA]

dracon... wasn't the coder konop 16 years old when he wrote asskicker?

[emkay]

when you are talking about W3d clone do you think of a "asskicker" Wolf-clone (with 360 degree turns) or like in alternate reality or bard's tale?

 

 

 

Alternate Reality is not really a 3D engine and the graphics are too small.

Asskicker really does show what the A8 is capable of. But it is no game...!

 

MY picture is only a "helpy" to show, what can be done when using Antic 5 and some MCS features.

 

After the 3D Engine is working and gameplay is fast enough and it can play some "speech" samples, no one will stop any other to enhance the graphics to the limits of the A8

[Dracon]

dracon... wasn't the coder konop 16 years old when he wrote asskicker?

"Asskicker" demo was released around 1996 year as I remember.

And there was a picture of Konop himself in "Motion Blur" fx.

Konop is my peer ; he was born in 1975 like myself.

So, when he finished this demo, he was about 21 years old (!).

[Lord-Chaos]

Wolfenstein 3D was released for the Super NES which is not much faster than an ATARI 800 (I think in 3D mode it uses 1.79Mhz just like the ATARI, max. is 3.58 AFAIK).

 

The SNES uses a 65816 , just an upgraded 65xx, but I´m not sure if Wolfenstein uses a special FX-chip like SNES "Doom".

 

If not, one could examine the code of SNES Wolfenstein.

 

The SEGA Genesis also had 3D shooters, although running at about 7.5 Mhz and with an 68000 it´s not sooo much faster than an ATARI when taking into account that the screenmodes consume less bytes on the ATARI.The Genesis had "Zero Tolerance" and "Duke Nukem 3D" , don´t know if Duke was officialy released, but a rom exists and is playable.

 

And the ATARI ST and AMIGA, both running at 8/7.14 Mhz have 3D shooters, too, both need at least 32K for a screen - the ATARI would need less.

 

Maybe some research on 16 Bit shooters could be done, they usually programmed better than DOS or Windows software.

 

Thimo

[CPUWIZ]

Super NES which is not much faster than an ATARI 800 (I think in 3D mode it uses 1.79Mhz just like the ATARI, max. is 3.58 AFAIK).

 

What did they put in your coffee this morning?

 

The SNES is way more powerful than a Atari 8bit/5200, I have written a few games for that system and I know for sure. Besides, there is no such thing as a 3D mode that switches Mhz at all.

 

I am going to bed.

[Heaven/TQA]

cpu... maybe he mixed it up with mode7 where the CPU clock is going down on the SNES...

 

and the SNES might have a "byte per pixel" mode like on PC... but it could be interesting approach to examine SNES code... but i am sure that they used the 16bit CPU and some other tricks of the SNES CPU...

[emkay]

Super NES which is not much faster than an ATARI 800 (I think in 3D mode it uses 1.79Mhz just like the ATARI, max. is 3.58 AFAIK).

 

What did they put in your coffee this morning?

 

The SNES is way more powerful than a Atari 8bit/5200, I have written a few games for that system and I know for sure. Besides, there is no such thing as a 3D mode that switches Mhz at all.

 

I am going to bed.

 

That is one thing all 8-Bit machines have in common: When using 3D it costs much cpu time to "simulate" a resolution for handling 3D at fullscreen?

 

On the Atari at least switch to a another graphicsmode, and you have an overall 3D screen at the resolution of 40x10...

[Lord-Chaos]

cpu... maybe he mixed it up with mode7 where the CPU clock is going down on the SNES...

 

and the SNES might have a "byte per pixel" mode like on PC... but it could be interesting approach to examine SNES code... but i am sure that they used the 16bit CPU and some other tricks of the SNES CPU...

 

Yes, I mean this "mode 7", and in this mode the CPU speed is not much faster than the 800 XL , although the CPU itself is more powerful.But an ATARI needs less bytes/screen and lots of data could be precalculated and stored in a cartridge ROM (and this data needs less space than SNES data because of lower color dept and resolution).

 

Because of this the question is : Does SNES Wolfenstein use special hardware or pure CPU power ? If it uses no special FX chip, the code could be useful to build an 8 Bit engine, because the 80286 code of Wolfenstein is not optimized and is slow on 12Mhz machines (and 12 Mhz is much faster than 1.79 Mhz).

The source code of the PC DOS version is useless, so the SNES or the Apple versions will be the only versions worth examining IMO.

 

It´s possible to create some simple 3D effects with Display List effects on the ATARI 800, too.

 

Thimo

[ApolloBoy]

Because of this the question is : Does SNES Wolfenstein use special hardware or pure CPU power ?

 

Wolfenstein uses the Super FX chip, I think. But I know for sure it uses a special chip.

[kevin242]

And the ATARI ST and AMIGA, both running at 8/7.14 Mhz have 3D shooters, too, both need at least 32K for a screen - the ATARI would need less.

 

 

there really weren't any 3d shooters for the standard Atari ST/AMIGA running at 7mhz. The Amiga had the excellent Alien Breed 3d (and later doom/quake which run on Power PC)

but it needed at least a 68020, AGA chipset and hard drive and lots of memory just for halfway decent performance.

 

 

 

 

kvn

[Lord-Chaos]

And the ATARI ST and AMIGA, both running at 8/7.14 Mhz have 3D shooters, too, both need at least 32K for a screen - the ATARI would need less.

 

 

there really weren't any 3d shooters for the standard Atari ST/AMIGA running at 7mhz. The Amiga had the excellent Alien Breed 3d (and later doom/quake which run on Power PC)

but it needed at least a 68020, AGA chipset and hard drive and lots of memory just for halfway decent performance.

 

 

 

 

kvn

 

There´s Substation for the STE and someone was working on "Wolfenstein" for the ATARI ST based on the Apple version.

 

The A500 had "Citadel", but it was very slow with 7.14 Mhz and another one, don´t remember the name, but this one used only a few textures.

Gloom Deluxe and Nemac IV were available for all 68020 AMIGAs, AGA not required, but slow on a 14Mhz accelerated 020 A500.

 

The ATARI needs less bytes for a screen and can use precalculated data read from ROM.It should be possible to create a 3D shooter.

 

BTW. : The C64 has Driller,Total Eclipse,Castle Master, full 3D games - but they´re rather slow - maybe because they´re in only 64K of RAM.

I think the 3D Construction set was available for C64,too.

 

Thimo