Thomas Jentzsch Posted June 4, 2004 Share Posted June 4, 2004 Do you actually have legal copyrights on the games you've made' date=' or do you just claim copyright because you wrote it?[/quote']I don't know and, to tell the truth, I don't care much about that. IMO those are our games since we wrote them from scratch. Period. Having to deal with legal stuff can easily ruin the fun. I prefer to rely on the fairness of the community which has proven to be very trustworthy (except of a very few bad apples). Else I wouldn't be in this hobby anymore. Not trying to stir things up...just trying to understand. And here I thought I had at least one hobby that didn't have some kind of swine in it. I once had the same hope, but at least there are only a very few of them yet. If you do own legal copyright, why not prosecute (even if it is a hobby as Cyberoth said). If a bunch of you went in together, you'd probably get a settlement and have him pay for the court and legal fees all at the same time. Maybe, but I don't think it is worth the effort. I recently had to (partially successful) prosecute someone else regarding Thrust DC+ and it was no fun at all. I lost interest in programming for almost a whole year then. No, I really don't want to go that way again. Unless the problem gets much worse or maybe someone else needs my support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEBRO Posted June 4, 2004 Share Posted June 4, 2004 Do you actually have legal copyrights on the games you've made' date=' or do you just claim copyright because you wrote it?[/quote']It seems this comes up often. When is my work protected? Your work is under copyright protection the moment it is created and fixed in a tangible form that it is perceptible either directly or with the aid of a machine or device. Do I have to register with your office to be protected? No. In general' date=' registration is voluntary. Copyright exists from the moment the work is created. You will have to register, however, if you wish to bring a lawsuit for infringement of a U.S. work.[/quote'] So it is copyrighted material even if it's not registered but it holds no merit in court if it's not registered. So do homebrew authors have to resort to this? I know I did a homebrew for fun and didn't expect to have to get into the legal arena. If the author has to resort to this I expect a lot less homebrews in the future If you do own legal copyright' date=' why not prosecute (even if it is a hobby as Cyberoth said). If a bunch of you went in together, you'd probably get a settlement and have him pay for the court and legal fees all at the same time.[/quote']Sounds like the Thrust+ vs. Jah Fish story all over again I'm sure no one wants to get involved with something like that again. If they did then Thomas would have been involved with 2 lawsuits over his work. How much longer do you think it would take for him to weigh if it's even worth the trouble to write another homebrew? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+wavemotion Posted June 4, 2004 Share Posted June 4, 2004 Do you actually have legal copyrights on the games you've made' date=' or do you just claim copyright because you wrote it?[/quote']He holds copyrights BECAUSE he wrote it. You don't claim anything - the laws exist to protect the author of any given work. Thomas is the author - he holds the copyright for his games exclusively (though he can transfer them). He only needs to officially register if he wants to go through the legal system - he can register at any time - even after he decides to go to a court of law. Nothing prevents his legal rights to his own works in tangible form. He has the right to distribute his works in any way he sees fit - anyone using his works contrary to his wishes is violating the copyright. I'm not a copyright expert... but having written a lot of freeware over the years (I still own the copyright on all of it even though I give it away for free - the price of an item does not affect the copyright status), I'm sensitive to this issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjk7382 Posted June 4, 2004 Share Posted June 4, 2004 Do I need to say that anyone buying homebrews from there is not supporting the homebrew scene? Don't worry, I just bought a copy of Star Fire from the AtariAge store yesterday. I wouldn't worry about losing any business to him, since he doesn't have a website, he can't sell anywhere near the volume of product as the AA store. Of course him being there is kind of a thorn in the homebrewers side, but I don't think it is serious enough to take legal action, since 99% of people don't think he exists anymore. (Of course all it should take to get him to stop is to ask nicely, but I am sure that has been done already with no resolve) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cap5750 Posted June 4, 2004 Share Posted June 4, 2004 Thanks for the clarification...I think. I'm still not quite sure though...can you sue someone for infringement if you didn't have it registered at the time it was infringed or could you see that your work was infringed upon and then register it so you could take them to court? Thank goodness I know at least four lawyers personally that I would go to in a pinch if needed. Cap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted June 4, 2004 Share Posted June 4, 2004 Thank goodness I know at least four lawyers personally that I would go to in a pinch if needed. Thanks for the offer, though I hope we will not have to use it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+wavemotion Posted June 4, 2004 Share Posted June 4, 2004 Thanks for the clarification...I think. I'm still not quite sure though...can you sue someone for infringement if you didn't have it registered at the time it was infringed or could you see that your work was infringed upon and then register it so you could take them to court? Yes. In the US anyway, you do NOT need to register to protect yourself. You can register after finding out that your work was infringed upon before going to court. The copyright exists with full protection for the author from the time the work is created. That's the way it should be - protection is granted automatically. But the cost in money and time often does not make it worthwhile to go after... And hassle... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted June 4, 2004 Share Posted June 4, 2004 (Of course all it should take to get him to stop is to ask nicely' date=' but I am sure that has been done already with no resolve)[/quote']Has been done: Nice, not so nice and completely not nice. Didn't work. I suppose he is on a "mission" now and we have learned that it is hard to impossible to stop those people (though that comment probably belongs into a different forum ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cap5750 Posted June 4, 2004 Share Posted June 4, 2004 Why did I all the sudden thing of reading an Atari instruction manual that reads "You are in charge of producing homebrew video games. Evil Hozer however is out to get you. He and his minions are stealing your supply. Armed with only a water pistol, you must shoot the Evil Hozers of the world and save that stash! Be warned however. Hozer will not give up easily. And when you think you've made it...he'll send more!!! Good luck! 10 exciting levels of play." Cap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Godzilla Posted June 4, 2004 Share Posted June 4, 2004 Not to dis the awesome coding and 'from scratchness' of 2600 thrust, which I love and own many versions of :-) but technically, unless the creators of thrust and it's artwork granted rights to thomas, his Thrust is just as illegal as hozer's carts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Posted June 4, 2004 Share Posted June 4, 2004 Not to dis the awesome coding and 'from scratchness' of 2600 thrust' date=' which I love and own many versions of :-) but technically, unless the creators of thrust and it's artwork granted rights to thomas, his Thrust is just as illegal as hozer's carts.[/quote'] The actual code that Thomas has written is *STILL* owned and copyrighted by Thomas, regardless of the fact that the game was derived from a work by the same name on another platform. What you are talking about are trademark issues with regards to the name, and then copyright of the artwork used on the box, label, and manual. The original makers of Thrust did not create a 2600 version of the game (and very likely never had or have any intention to), so one would be hard pressed to make a case that there are monetary losses with regards to what Thomas has done. Regardless of the situation with Thrust (which is a more complicated issue due to its derivation), that still does not excuse what Hozer is doing. Most homebrew games are entirely original works, in terms of concept, coding, and any associated production materials (artwork, manual text, etc.). ..Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert M Posted June 4, 2004 Share Posted June 4, 2004 Not to dis the awesome coding and 'from scratchness' of 2600 thrust' date=' which I love and own many versions of :-) but technically, unless the creators of thrust and it's artwork granted rights to thomas, his Thrust is just as illegal as hozer's carts.[/quote'] I don't think that is correct. Game mechanics and look and feel are not copyrighted, they are patented. For example there is a new GOP propaganda web site (sorry no link handy) which has a flash game called Kerry-opoly. I haven't checked, but I doubt the owners of Monopoly sanctioned Kerry-opoly. The original thrust implementation code is copyrighted, but the gameplay is only patentable/trademarkable. Since Thomas wrote Thrust from scratch not using any of the original code (I assume) , then he did not violate any copyright by the original Thrust author. Then you get into the question of patents. I doubt the gameplay in Thrust is patented. It would be too much trouble, and there is considerable prior art to block a patent (e.g. Gravitar, Lunar Lander, etc). About the only thing that could have been patented is the picking up of the fuel cell and dragging it behind the ship on a tether. That part of the game mechanics is probably unique enough at the time Thrust was first written to be patented. I doubt it ever was though. Just like in your Donkey Kong mockup thread, Godzilla, I have no fear of copyright infringement because the code would be written from scratch. What I would fear are trademark infringements on the Mario and Donkey Kong trademarks. Cheers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Godzilla Posted June 4, 2004 Share Posted June 4, 2004 Not to dis the awesome coding and 'from scratchness' of 2600 thrust' date=' which I love and own many versions of :-) but technically' date=' unless the creators of thrust and it's artwork granted rights to thomas, his Thrust is just as illegal as hozer's carts.[/quote''] The actual code that Thomas has written is *STILL* owned and copyrighted by Thomas, regardless of the fact that the game was derived from a work by the same name on another platform. What you are talking about are trademark issues with regards to the name, and then copyright of the artwork used on the box, label, and manual. The original makers of Thrust did not create a 2600 version of the game (and very likely never had or have any intention to), so one would be hard pressed to make a case that there are monetary losses with regards to what Thomas has done. Regardless of the situation with Thrust (which is a more complicated issue due to its derivation), that still does not excuse what Hozer is doing. Most homebrew games are entirely original works, in terms of concept, coding, and any associated production materials (artwork, manual text, etc.). ..Al I agree, what hozer is doing is wrong. It's a 'pot' and a 'black kettle' type of situation. One may say one is 'more wrong' than the other or 'more illegal' than the other, but that comes down to personal preference. The law has always been about the black and white. Either you break the law or you don't. I can't see how Thomas's thrust can reasonably be seen to be free of infrigement since it's such a great (excellent and incredible,) copy (in terms of all game graphics & play elements, and box and cart artwork.) And we know that what hozer is doing is breaking copyright. I just don't see why we can't all admit to being the infringers that we are and get on with life happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted June 4, 2004 Share Posted June 4, 2004 I just don't see why we can't all admit to being the infringers that we are and get on with life happy. I don't care what the written law says here. Maybe I am hurting someones copyright' date=' probably not. But IMO that doesn't matter here. Unlike Hozer, AFAIK I am not hurting anybodies interests, I am not acting against anybodies clear intentions for sure and I have always respected the interests of any other member of our community. [b']Big[/b] difference! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Godzilla Posted June 4, 2004 Share Posted June 4, 2004 I just don't see why we can't all admit to being the infringers that we are and get on with life happy. I don't care what the written law says here. Maybe I am hurting someones copyright' date=' probably not. But IMO that doesn't matter here. Unlike Hozer, AFAIK I am not hurting anybodies interests, I am not acting against anybodies clear intentions for sure and I have always respected the interests of any other member of our community. [b']Big[/b] difference! That is very true. I have never disagreed with that. From a personal/moral standpoint, Thomas is clearly 'much more' in the right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Random Terrain Posted June 5, 2004 Share Posted June 5, 2004 His name is Randy Crihfield and he is still in business' date=' just not on the web.[/quote'] Hozer Videogames is still on the Web. Check out the link below: http://webpages.charter.net/hozervideo/ Did anyone get scared and crap their pants after looking at that page? For anyone who didn't look at the actual address, that link is to the WayBack Machine. Here are a few more related links: http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://webpag....net/hozervideo http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.ne...ideo/index.html http://www.gooddealgames.com/interviews/in..._Crihfield.html I'm glad I got a chance to look at that old Hozer Video Games page because I now have a new color combination to add to my bad examples list: http://www.randomterrain.com/webdesign/rea...eadability.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjk7382 Posted June 5, 2004 Share Posted June 5, 2004 I'm glad I got a chance to look at that old Hozer Video Games page because I now have a new color combination to add to my bad examples list: http://www.randomterrain.com/webdesign/rea...eadability.html He has given up the look of the old pages. Below is an example of what his catalog looks like now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Random Terrain Posted June 5, 2004 Share Posted June 5, 2004 He has given up the look of the old pages. Below is an example of what his catalog looks like now. Oh cool, blue links on a blue background. Pure genius! It might still suck, but it's still better than the other (not by much though). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dav Posted June 5, 2004 Share Posted June 5, 2004 The actual code that Thomas has written is *STILL* owned and copyrighted by Thomas, regardless of the fact that the game was derived from a work by the same name on another platform. Not that I want to get involved in this, but I'm not sure that would hold up. Midway was forced to give up the rights to their Pacman based games to Namco. Ms pac was designed as a series of overlays so they could stay legal copyrightwise but it didn't help. I think most of us would agree though that sometimes legally right and morally right are not the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted June 5, 2004 Share Posted June 5, 2004 I think most of us would agree though that sometimes legally right and morally right are not the same. Yup! Unfortunately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
povlok1 Posted June 5, 2004 Share Posted June 5, 2004 Like when a Priest has his Penis in a 12 year olds bum but hes just outside of the international boarder on a ship? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Tumber Posted June 5, 2004 Share Posted June 5, 2004 As mentioned previously in this thread, copyright protection is automatically asigned at the time of creation. It's *possible* that the original owners of Thrust could convince a court to assign them the rights to Thomas' game to them based upon it being a derivative work. However until that happens (and it's not a given - far as I'm aware, nobody knows the legal status of the orginal Thrust game. Presumably the trademark has lapsed [The USPTO doesn't show any video game relted patents, alive or dead] and who knows who, if anyone, owns the rights to the original game) the rights belong to Thomas. Period, end of story. The reason why nobody sues Hozer is that lawyers actually expect to get paid. Hozer is almost certainly "judgement proof" (no assets that could be seized to cover a judgement) even if you could get a judge to award a non-trivial amount. "The defendant sold 20 copies, costing the plaintif $5 a copy. Judgement for the plaintif $100". Legal fees, $2000... However, the US government is busy trying to up the ante as far as criminal prosecution of pirates. Now certainly getting a DA interested in something like this is a whole 'nother kettle of fish, but if I was someone like Randy, that's where I'd start getting worried... Bubba doesn't care if you're Christian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
povlok1 Posted June 5, 2004 Share Posted June 5, 2004 As mentioned previously in this thread, copyright protection is automatically asigned at the time of creation. It's *possible* that the original owners of Thrust could convince a court to assign them the rights to Thomas' game to them based upon it being a derivative work. However until that happens (and it's not a given - far as I'm aware, nobody knows the legal status of the orginal Thrust game. Presumably the trademark has lapsed [The USPTO doesn't show any video game relted patents, alive or dead] and who knows who, if anyone, owns the rights to the original game) the rights belong to Thomas. Period, end of story. The reason why nobody sues Hozer is that lawyers actually expect to get paid. Hozer is almost certainly "judgement proof" (no assets that could be seized to cover a judgement) even if you could get a judge to award a non-trivial amount. "The defendant sold 20 copies, costing the plaintif $5 a copy. Judgement for the plaintif $100". Legal fees, $2000... However, the US government is busy trying to up the ante as far as criminal prosecution of pirates. Now certainly getting a DA interested in something like this is a whole 'nother kettle of fish, but if I was someone like Randy, that's where I'd start getting worried... Bubba doesn't care if you're Christian. yup.. lets have the DA's let the rapist and murder's and the child abusing Priest alone and go after the Pirates.. Time well spent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dav Posted June 5, 2004 Share Posted June 5, 2004 Like when a Priest has his Penis in a 12 year olds bum but hes just outside of the international boarder on a ship? Yuk, I'm sorry I read that. BTW I found a SNK Bermuda Triangle in the shed I've never enven plugged it in but I can't find the other galaxian. I'm still adding stuff up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZeroWing Posted June 6, 2004 Share Posted June 6, 2004 Why not write a letter to his church detailing his evil-doings? I'm sure they would be interested to learn of the sins one of their deacons is committing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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