GamebaseST Posted July 22, 2004 Share Posted July 22, 2004 I bought the CyberTech s-video card recently and Atari2600.com were good enough to warn me that I would have to do a few modifications before the board would work with the PAL machine. Basically they list 4 jumper wires that need to be added, along with a socket to allow me to bend the pins out that I need to patch. I successfully installed the board with the jumper wires in place, and I get sound and a picture fine, but the picture is in B&W only. I have tried now with 2x 2600 Woody versions (both had a different version of the PAL TIA chip in), but I get the same result from both. I have checked the continuity of the Chroma and Luma wires in the s-video cable and both are fine, so I can only presume the jumper changes I was given are wrong somehow. I was told to jumper the following: PAL TIA pin 6 -> Cybertech pin 7 PAL TIA pin 7 -> Cybertech pin 8 PAL TIA pin 8 -> Motherboard socket pin 8 PAL TIA pin 12 -> Motherboard socket pin 12 I have attached a picture of the modifications, although it is hard to see much in that. I wonder if anyone here has the knowledge of the PAL TIA & Cybertech board to know if the patch instructions above are correct. I'm hoping I can just make a small change to fix this, and soon because I will be exhibiting at this weekends Classic Gamers Expo and had hoped to have this board on display. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwilkson Posted July 22, 2004 Share Posted July 22, 2004 Hi Rob, I'm on it. But I'm extremely busy today and tonight. I probably won't get to look for my PAL machine until after 10pm or so. But I hope to verify/debug your problem then. I'll have it done before tomorrow morning. -Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwilkson Posted July 22, 2004 Share Posted July 22, 2004 BTW, do you have an o'scope around? Just checking... -Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GamebaseST Posted July 22, 2004 Author Share Posted July 22, 2004 Hi Chris The man himself, I'm impressed. I don't have an o'scope, the best diagnostic tool I have is just my humble multimeter. I've looked at the schematics for the PAL and NTSC machines I found on this site and the only difference I can see is that the PAL TIA shows LUM3 for pin 6, and on the NTSC TIA pin 7 shows as LM2. I'm not sure how much is in a number, but I'm glad you will be able to test on a real PAL machine. Its nearly midnight Thursday night here, so 10pm your time will be about 6am Friday for me, so with any luck by the time I get home from work Friday night you might have a solution. I'll keep my fingers crossed, thanks for taking the time. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwilkson Posted July 23, 2004 Share Posted July 23, 2004 bump... ...just so this shows up in my inbox when I get home tonight. Don't want to forget!! -chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwilkson Posted July 23, 2004 Share Posted July 23, 2004 Hi Chris The man himself' date=' I'm impressed. I don't have an o'scope, the best diagnostic tool I have is just my humble multimeter. I've looked at the schematics for the PAL and NTSC machines I found on this site and the only difference I can see is that the PAL TIA shows LUM3 for pin 6, and on the NTSC TIA pin 7 shows as LM2. I'm not sure how much is in a number, but I'm glad you will be able to test on a real PAL machine. Its nearly midnight Thursday night here, so 10pm your time will be about 6am Friday for me, so with any luck by the time I get home from work Friday night you might have a solution. I'll keep my fingers crossed, thanks for taking the time. Rob[/quote'] :x ARRRRR!!!! I just lost the entire post, because it refused to accept a .bmp attachment and died completely. I always forget about that. :x In short: Those directions sound right. That's what I did when I tested last spring. I can't find my PAL 2600 jr. I must have left it in Boston or Texas by accident. It will be hard to debug this quickly with only a multimeter, but we can try. Do this: 1) Desolder the chroma wire from the CyberTech board. Solder a 6 inch piece of solid copper wire to it. 2) Build the amplifier shown in the picture below. You'll need an NPN transistor. A 2N3904 or similar type is fine. You should get some color. It may be an ugly picture overall, but it's only a test. If you see color, proceed. 3) There is a test point near R2 and R3. Move the base of your transistor amp from TIA pin 9 to this test point. You should get color, probably better now. If so, try it without the amp. Plug the chroma lead directly into the test point. If you still get color, proceed. 4) Move the chroma lead to pin 2 of the saturation pot. If you still get color proceed. 5) Now check the chroma output pin. You should get really good color. 6) The last place to check is between R8 and C6. That's the last place that chroma has a DC component. BTW, if you can't get a transistor on short notice, start with step 3. If you don't get color there, you'll need to find a transistor to check the color generator. The TIA is not strong enough to drive a 75 Ohm load. If you get desperate, you can liberate one of the audio transistors on the CyberTech board...PAL systems only use mono audio, so transistor Q2 is unused. Which reminds me. Because you can only get mono from your deck, you might as well install jumper J1 to get sound in both output channels. It looks like you might have already done so. But it's hard to tell, so just in case.... I think I've managed to label the interesting points in the photo below. If there's anything missing, just ask. Let me know what you find. Good luck! -Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GamebaseST Posted July 23, 2004 Author Share Posted July 23, 2004 Thanks Chris, I should be able to get the transistor from my local Atari specialist (System Solutions) today, and I will work on it tonight. With luck I'll have something I can work with for the show, and I'll let you know. I realise you must have been up until about 1:30 doing this so many thanks, if it works maybe I'll be able to drum up some customers and I'll point them in Atari2600.com's direction. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GamebaseST Posted July 23, 2004 Author Share Posted July 23, 2004 Out of interest, if I can obtain an NTSC TIA do you think that would work in a PAL motherboard? I realise the modulator would not work but I wouldn't need it. If I can order the NTSC TIA from somewhere (Best perhaps?) then I could have pseudo-stereo sound and 60Hz output, which might be a better long term solution. Failing that I'll have to try and source a real NTSC 2600 Woody ! Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GamebaseST Posted July 23, 2004 Author Share Posted July 23, 2004 I have a couple of those exact transistors, some wire and lots of enthusiasm, so I will have a go tonight. I can get hold of an O'Scope if this doesn't work, but that will have to wait until after the show now. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GamebaseST Posted July 23, 2004 Author Share Posted July 23, 2004 Sorry Chris, that didn't work. First I tried the transistor layout on your transistor diagram (using pin 9 as base) but that didn't give any hint of colour. I then tried the base at the test point, and then the chroma wire on it's own at the test point, but got no change in the picture at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwilkson Posted July 24, 2004 Share Posted July 24, 2004 Ok, I think we'll need to wait for the oscilloscope. Sorry I couldn't help before the show tomorrow. But one question I forgot to ask...I'm assuming that the TIA chip you're using will produce color through the RF circuitry? I.e., without the CyberTech board installed, everything works fine? -Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blinky Posted July 24, 2004 Share Posted July 24, 2004 I don't know anything about the cybertech board. But I'm just wondering. It looks if pin 10 of the cybertech board does not connect to the 'motherboard'. When it is not connected. shouldn't it be connected ? or does the cybertech board produce its own color delay (voltage) ? If pin 10 is connected just forget I asked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwilkson Posted July 24, 2004 Share Posted July 24, 2004 It's connected. Pin 9 is the one that's missing. -Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwilkson Posted July 24, 2004 Share Posted July 24, 2004 BTW, an NTSC TIA won't directly work in a PAL console. Not without jumpers anyway. I'm not sure what else would be needed, but I think you're best to just hope for an NTSC console if you want to go that route. -Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GamebaseST Posted July 24, 2004 Author Share Posted July 24, 2004 I'm midway through the show now (at home, tomorrow will be the last day of the show). I had to work at getting either of my consoles back working on RF before the show. The TIA sockets connections had been squeezed by the Cybertech board because of the width of the pins, so I have to do some pin bending on the TIA to get all the pins to connect again once the Cybertech board was out. My second console I finally got working (in colour) at about 11pm Friday night, which isn't the one I did the transistor test on. My first console briefly worked on my TV via RF and it was also now in black and white. Before attempting the Cybertech mod this machine was working in colour (at was my best machine, best switches, no delay in booting etc). However once I'd switched it off again I never got it working again through RF, but I put back the Cybertech board to check the console still actually worked albeit in B&W via s-video, and it did. So once I get some time after the show I will try again to get my primary console back working via RF and see if the colour comes back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwilkson Posted August 11, 2004 Share Posted August 11, 2004 I'm midway through the show now (at home, tomorrow will be the last day of the show). I had to work at getting either of my consoles back working on RF before the show. The TIA sockets connections had been squeezed by the Cybertech board because of the width of the pins, so I have to do some pin bending on the TIA to get all the pins to connect again once the Cybertech board was out. My second console I finally got working (in colour) at about 11pm Friday night, which isn't the one I did the transistor test on. My first console briefly worked on my TV via RF and it was also now in black and white. Before attempting the Cybertech mod this machine was working in colour (at was my best machine, best switches, no delay in booting etc). However once I'd switched it off again I never got it working again through RF, but I put back the Cybertech board to check the console still actually worked albeit in B&W via s-video, and it did. So once I get some time after the show I will try again to get my primary console back working via RF and see if the colour comes back. Could be you've blown up the color pin on that chip. Though it seems like you already tried chip swapping...? I finally found my PAL machine. I still haven't unpacked from PC5. The machine was stuffed into the box of goodies that I picked up at the show. I'll be modding that machine during this week hopefully, and I'll post the results here. -Chris PS. If you manage to borrow an o'scope, be sure to get one that can trigger on a TV signal....it makes things a lot easier.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GamebaseST Posted August 11, 2004 Author Share Posted August 11, 2004 Yeah I did try swapping the TIA chips around between my 2 2600's, along with the switch board, but I got the same result. I've now put together both of my 2600's, one is working and the other only in B&W. I look forward to seeing your PAL results, I personally have to give up getting it to work on a PAL machine, I'm moving in 3 weeks time and I need to get things cleared up, so I have sourced an NTSC machine from the states and as soon as that arrives I'll be putting in the Cybertech board (after snipping the stereo jumper wire I bridged). Thanks for your help so far, I know of at least 1 other person who wants to install the Cybertech board in his PAL machine, so your test results won't go to waste. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moderntimes99 Posted August 16, 2004 Share Posted August 16, 2004 Hi! I would be very interested as well in a fool proof description for how to install the Cybertech mod in a PAL machine... I will do a video mod for a PAL machine in a few weeks time and if the Cybertech mod is feasible it would be a strong candidate. Best regards, Moderntimes99 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwilkson Posted August 16, 2004 Share Posted August 16, 2004 Hi! I would be very interested as well in a fool proof description for how to install the Cybertech mod in a PAL machine... I will do a video mod for a PAL machine in a few weeks time and if the Cybertech mod is feasible it would be a strong candidate. Best regards, Moderntimes99 Well, I finished modding my PAL machine. Everything went fine except there's an audio short (probably a solder bridge) under the board. And there's NO WAY I'm desoldering the CyberTech board from the motherboard to repair it! (it's permanently installed) Luckily, PAL machines only have mono audio, so I was able do a patch to the top of the board. Ok, this is quickly turning into a rambling, sleep deprivation induced..... (falls asleep) (wakes up) Oh. Right. So anyway, it works. And the instructions above were correct. I'll post more after I get *lots* of sleep. -Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwilkson Posted August 17, 2004 Share Posted August 17, 2004 Ok. So... (after lots of sleep) I guess I don't have that much to say afterall. The machine I modified is a PAL 2600 Jr. I forgot to cut some pins on the CyberTech card before I installed it, so the RF is still partly active. But it isn't interfering enough for me to care at this point, so I'm leaving it alone for now. After installation, I reassembled the machine, including the RF shielding. Beyond desoldering the TIA chip from the motherboard and replacing it with the CyberTech board, there are no modifications to the console at all. The board is soldered directly into the motherboard because there is no extra space to include the extra socket needed. I also solder the jumpers for the PAL adjustment directly to the TIA, again because of vertical space issues. The 2 cables (S-video and audio) are run out beside the RF jack...the existing hole is *just* big enough for it. I did this mod while I was half asleep, so I forgot to take photos as I went. Maybe next time. But I did take some screenshots of Fatal Run playing on the reassembled machine. I'm including a montage of shots here. I used a Cuttle Cart for this. Notice the sync problems in the Cuttle Cart's title screen...it's an NTSC cart and my capture was set for PAL-H. But once the PAL program takes over everything is fine! -Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwilkson Posted August 18, 2004 Share Posted August 18, 2004 Here are a couple more pics....post mod. One shows the motherboard with the CyberTech board installed. You can also see the cable routing here. It's kind of hard to see from this view, but you'll notice that the board is mounted at an angle. The front edge is lower than the back edge. This is so the mod will fit inside the metal RF shield. Also, it looks like the TIA chip (the bottom chip) slid off the CyberTech board. It's true. In the Jr., the TIA is rotated 180 degrees from the 4- and 6-switch models. So there is an alternate placement available on the board. Only putting 1 row of pins on the board allows all the necessary signals to get onto the video card, but without increasing the overall size of the board. But more to the point, it gives an extra 0.062 inches of vertical clearance in the front because the actual PCB isn't taking up space on that side. The other photo shows a close up of the CyberTech board. Here, you can see the PAL adjustment in all it's magnificent blurriness. ( stupid digital camera! ) First a quick recap of the PAL adjustment. The CyberTech Video card was designed with an NTSC TIA chip in mind. The PAL TIA has a different pinout, and it only supports mono audio. To adjust for these differences, the following changes have to be made: PAL TIA pin 6 -> Cybertech pin 7 PAL TIA pin 7 -> Cybertech pin 8 PAL TIA pin 8 -> Motherboard socket pin 8 PAL TIA pin 12 -> Motherboard socket pin 12 Install jumper J1 to enable the right audio channel (you still only get mono, but it now has dual outputs so all of your speakers work) The way I did this was as follows. First I bent pins 6, 7, 8, and 12 of the TIA up so they wouldn't engage the CyberTech socket and I removed pins 7 and 8 from the CyberTech socket. I then installed jumper J1 and soldered 24 guage (telephone wire) jumpers in the 2 holes that were vacated on the CyberTech board (pins 7 and 8 ) and soldered them directly to the correct TIA pins (pins 6 and 7). I recommend using a soldertail socket instead of bending and soldering those precious TIA pins, but there's no room in the Jr. Then I soldered jumpers to the motherboard where TIA pins 8 and 12 used to go and I routed them though the CyberTech board, using the row of pins conveniently left behind by moving the TIA for the Jr installation. Next I seated the CyberTech board into the motherboard and soldered it in place. The front edge of the CyberTech socket has to be right against the motherboard and the bottom of the CyberTech card will be in contact with the 6507 processor to fit everything under the RF shield. Finally, I connected the 2 motherboard jumpers directly to TIA pins 8 and 12. BTW, the audio problem I mentioned before turned out to be caused by not severing the necessary pins when I built the video card. I couldn't reach the audio pin to cut it, so I disconnected the 2 components on the motherboard that are connected to the audio pin and I rebuilt the CyberTech audio section the way it's supposed to be. Maybe that's cheating, but it sounds much better now! Let me know if anyone has any remaining questions. And Rob, if you get your hands on an oscope, let me know. We'll get it up and running! -Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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