What if the 7800 was released in 1984?

[7800Lover]

I've always wondered what would have happened if the Atari 7800 had not been delayed until 1986. Do you think it would have survived in the cripple video game market of 1984 (right after the crash)? Would it have given the NES a run for its money?

 

It really gets me steamed how the Tramiels canned the project for two years and cost the public a perfectly good video game system.

[Ferris]

Personally, I'd like to think the 7800 could have given the NES a run for its money. Frankly, Atari should have licensed the NES just for the games and ported them in some way to the 7800 which was indeed a more powerful system.

 

I could write a Thesis paper on how the 7800 could have been successful if fully launched in 1984, but I think I'll just keep this to some bullet points for times sake

 

The important thing to remember is that had the 7800 been successfully launched in 1984, it would have included the release of the full GCC line of products that were developed for the 7800 such as the High Score Cartridge, home computer unit, 5200/7800 ProSystem Adapter, and games such as SkyFox and the recently found Rescue on Fractalus. This all would have contributed to the 7800's success.

 

Some key points to keep in mind with regards to a successful '84 launch

 

- 2600 Compatability would have been more of a key selling point as the 2600 was still a viable system. In 1988 many consumers would look at the 7800 and see the 2600 compatability and go "why would I want this?' and go play Metroid or Excitebike on the NES at the other end of the sales counter.

 

- Keyboard and related software would have established the 7800 not only as an entertainment machine, but as an educational tool via the AtariLab software, as well as an entry-level home computer which could be connected to an existing line of hardware such as disc drives and printers. This would have established two critical consumer bases that the NES never even touched in the American market.

 

- the 7800's "Arcade Quality Graphics" truly were arcade quality in 1984. The 16 bit arcade units such as the Atari System-1 wouldnt gain popularity until 1986 or 1987, right when the 7800 was trying to kick up a fuss.

 

- The 7800 could run RINGS around the NES graphically if only applied to do so. The 7800 could handle many more sprites at one time (Robotron: 2084) had better animation (compare the fliping steel plates in Xevious to the NES version) and could graphically handle larger sprites with a certain acquiescence that the NES just couldnt touch with a 10-foot pole (see the tall elegant and sophisticated Secret Agent Man from 7800's Impossible Mission doing gymnastics over all those nasty robots... then compare him to a squatty little Mario or Metroid) The 7800 was just more capable.

 

- The NES/Famicom was nothing more than a reverse engineered Atari 5200 that could handle more RAM. This was proved in a court of law where the jury found in Atari's favor. (but just barely)

 

- The 7800 had an existing userbase with the 2600 that the NES did not have. This would have worked in Atari's favor much as the existing PlayStation base of 1995-2000 worked in favor of Sony's launch of the PS2.

 

 

.......HOWEVER..........

 

 

You also must consider some points which could show you that the 7800 would not have been able to tackle the NES either way.

 

- The Atari XE is more-or-less what the 7800 would have been had the keyboard attatchment been released. The XE also had an existing userbase which helped, but not enough, especially when faced with competition from Nintendo, Sega, Neo Geo and even the 7800 its self.

 

- The 7800 would not have had Super Mario Bros, Excitebike, Metroid, Zelda, Ice Climber, Bomberman, a Power Glove or Power Pad. Remember, people buy video games not because of their graphics but because of how fun they are. This is why I play my 7800 over my xbox on may occasions.

 

- Atari was releasing its third system in two years with the 5200 coming out in 1982 over the 2600. Many people were turned off by this. Seriously, think of it. Say you were a dedicated PlayStation gamer from 1995-2000 and spent 250.00 to move up into a PS2 in the year 2000... just to be dissapointed with mean joysticks and crappy games that you already had. Then by 2002 you would be faced with ANOTHER new game system from Sony that wasnt even compatible with the PS2! Think of it... following this same timeline, the PS2 would have been replaced nearly 3 years ago! Thats rediculous, and Atari paid the price.

 

 

Anyway, these are just some points to take into consideration. The pros and cons are interesting.

 

Any thoughts Curt?

 

Justin

[7800Lover]

Wow, Ferris. It's nice to meet another 7800 afficionado and such a well-informed one too.

 

Ultimately, games make or break a system. NES did have games like SMB, Zelda, Punch Out, etc., but the Atari 7800 was capable of having games like those too like Midnight Mutants and Scrapyard Dog. Maybe if the system had been released early and had such games around the NES release, the 7800 might have stood a chance.

[Ferris]

Agreed.

 

Personally, I believe that had Atari brought even MORE involvement from Namco into the 7800, there could have been some much better games that never saw the light of day.

 

That brings me to one other issue I forgot to mention...

 

... in the break-up of Atari during the summer of 1984, Jack Tramiel (Commodore) purchased the rights to Atari's home consumer division, while leaving the Coin-Op and other divisions completely in Warner control. Warner then sold Coin-Op to Midway who operated this division until 1999 or 2000. Warner still owned a small percentage (somewhere between 10%-25% I believe) of each division, so they still were all loosely tied together in some way.

 

Okay so what does that have to do with the 7800??

 

Well... part of what made the 2600 so popular was its ability to bring games that were popular in the arcade home to the player's living room. Taito's Space Invaders was the first "killer ap" when Atari launched it on the 2600, and that's what really drove the 2600 from being a nifty alternative to Pong to a must-have piece of entertainment hardware.

 

Atari was first and foremost famous for their Coin-Op games. Asteroids, Centipede, Tempest, Lunar Lander, Missile Command, Battlezone Crystal Castles and games Atari had thru Namco such as Pole Position are what pushed Atari forward. During the days of the 2600 and 5200, these arcade classics were often available for home play. What was popular in the arcades is what sold systems. Look at the ColecoVision's success with the Donkey Kong pack-in!

 

Long story short, when Atari Coin-Op and Atari Home-Consumer parted ways in 1984, so did the opportunity to port many of these coin-op games to the 7800. Tramiel opted to make cartridges for the NES and pocket some quick cash than invest in his own 7800 unit.

 

First of all, great staples of Atari's Coin-Op division could have been ported to the 7800, taking advantage of the Maria graphics chip which would have made such games as Tempest, Lunar Lander, and Battlezone much more viable than on the 2600 or 5200. Other classics like Crystal Castles would have been wonderful as a cartridge, maybe even a pack-in. I'm sure that even in 1984, had a fantastic conversion of Tempest been made available, the 7800 would have sold to a number of consumers just based upon that game alone. Argue it if you will, but it sure as hell sold plenty of Jaguar units ten years later when it finally came out.

 

Secondly, there were TONS of great games that came out under Atari Coin-Op from 1984 until the demise of the 7800 that never made it to the system's platform that would have been terriffic games. Atari Coin-Op games such as RoadBlasters, Peter Pack-Rat, Marble Madness, Indiana Jones, and yes... even Tetris and Paper Boy would have been fantastic 7800 titles which could have allowed the 7800 to hold its own. Paper Boy and Tetris were staples of the Nintendo lineup of the day, infact Tetris was the first pack-in with the GameBoy. These were ATARI games, not Nintendo. Atari Coin-Op licensed these for use with the NES as by that time there were more NES systems on the market than 7800 obviously, and they could sell more cartridges that way. Ungreatful bastards.

 

Given, some of these titles like RoadBlasters and Xybots did make it to the 7800, most did not. But if you are going to open up the Lynx argument, my real question is where were games like Blue Lightning, War Birds, Gauntlet, Chips Challenge, APB, and RoadBlasters for the 7800? These would have been great titles. Heck even Dirty Larry could have been cool on the 7800.

 

So, in my opinion, had the 7800 launched in 1984, that would have inheriently meant that Coin-Op and Home-Consumer would have remained more closely tied, allowing these games to be released.

 

 

Justin

[ninjarabbit]

Wow those are some good and interesting agruements. However it is still my opinion that the 7800 wouldn't have been that much more sucessful if it was released in 84 instead of 86 for several reasons.

 

1) Atari would have made the same mistake that Sega made 10 years later by having too many systems to support at once, spreading resourses and user base too thinly.

 

2) It would have been too soon after the crash. Nintendo had to use the ROB as a trojan horse to get retailers to carry the NES since many thought that home games systems were a fad that was over and were liquidating their video game inventory. Atari would have had a hell of a time getting retailers to carry the 7800.

 

3) Lack of a killer ap, the NES had SMB and Genesis had Sonic to move systems, the 7800 really didn't have that must have game to move systems, though if the arcade division would have been there it might have been another story.

[jedijeff]

Don't forget that they were a major sponsor of the '84 Olympics. With all the great GCC games that were ready to go (esp. Food Fight) I think this really would have helped raise demand for the system.

 

Jeff

[7800Lover]

3) Lack of a killer ap, the NES had SMB and Genesis had Sonic to move systems, the 7800 really didn't have that must have game to move systems, though if the arcade division would have been there it might have been another story.

 

Yep, I did notice that Atari lacked a mascot and a flagship game. Nintendo has Mario, Sega has Sonic, Sony has Crash Bandicoot, NEC (makers of the Turbo-Grafx 16) had Bonk. Who would have made a good Atari mascot?

[Ferris]

Many argue in favor of Bently Bear from Crystal Castles. In 2002 Atari 7800.com had some Holiday print media featuring a Santa Claus Bently Bear. I'll include a picture of him here.

 

You also have to think of overall brand recognition. It wasnt that "The NES had Mario" and "MasterSystem had Sonic" because in the United States thats not true. It was Nintendo who has had Mario, Donkey Kong, Link, etc for two decades. Sonic was cross-platform for Sega. So to pin down one particular mascot for the 7800 is silly. If so, you'd probabally have to go with Louie from Scrapyard Dog.

 

Overall, you should look for an Atari mascot. Games like Asteroids, Missile Command, Tempest, and Pole Position get disqualified immediately due to their lack of visible character. The only two that are somewhat obvious are the Centipede or Bentley Bear.

 

What's most ironic is that if you ask this same question to any of the general public, they associate Pac-Man most with Atari.... even though Pac-Man was Namco's creation, not Atari. Same problem with Dig Dug.

 

Too bad Bently Bear never got the popularity he deserved. The Tramiels waited to revive him until Atari Karts in 1995.

 

If you guys can decide on a mascot for the 7800 I'll post it to my website.

 

 

Justin

[VidGameKing]

Say you were a dedicated PlayStation gamer from 1995-2000 and spent 250.00 to move up into a PS2 in the year 2000... just to be dissapointed with mean joysticks and crappy games that you already had. Then by 2002 you would be faced with ANOTHER new game system from Sony that wasnt even compatible with the PS2! Think of it... following this same timeline, the PS2 would have been replaced nearly 3 years ago! Thats rediculous, and Atari paid the price.

 

 

And in all actuality thats the road that Sega went down too... And we all know what happend to Sega!!

 

Adrian M has many words to say on the unjustly release of newer incompatible hardware withing a constrained time period, don't you Adrian?!!

[atari70s]

all im gonna say on this matter is atari had the chance to buy Nintendo in 1983 for i forgot how many millions. if they did they could have made the NES with the graphics and could have ported alot of good titles onto that 8 bit console. in 1986. the 7800 would have probably surrived the video game crash and working with the nintendo people would have launched a very capable system as the 7800 was getting weak. that is of course if nintendo ( after being bought by atari)would have kept the same designs for the NES . i think if atari bought out Nintendo in 1983. it would have helped atari alot plus give them over seas help. and then taken the over seas knowledge to america and after the strugling 7800 during 1984 would have brought back gameing like nothing weve seen before. maybe wed all be playing atari game boxes. and super atari 9900s.

[DracIsBack]

all im gonna say on this matter is  atari had the chance to buy Nintendo in 1983 for i forgot how many millions.

 

Having just come off of OEM negotations with a bunch of third party software vendors, myself, I can't reiterate enough that this is a common belief among Atari fans, but one that is not quite right.

 

In a nutshell, Nintendo did explore having Atari be the US OEM distributor for the NES in North America. However, with all the turnover at Atari and Nintendo themselves not feeling overly strong about the deal, it didn't happen.

 

There's a huge difference between being handed the NES on a silver platter (which many think Atari was) and the beginnings of a lengthy contract negotiation to OEM a product.

 

Atari most definitely didn't get all the way to the end and then say, "naw, we don't want it."

 

if they did they could have made the NES with the graphics and could have ported alot of good titles onto that 8 bit console. in 1986.  the 7800 would have probably surrived the video game crash and working with the nintendo people would have launched a very capable system as the 7800 was getting weak.

 

The 7800 wasn't weak. This is another misnomer. The NES was designed at the same time as it was and was not a "newer" system. The 7800 was released in 1984 and shipped in 1986. The NES was released in Japan in latr 1983/early 1984. It does has certain strengths and so does the 7800. But in the grand scheme of things, they are two consoles from the same generation. Both were designed in the 1983 timeframe. The NES was not a generation ahead.

 

Had the same developers put the same time/money behind each system, it's pretty obvious the 7800's library would have turned out very differently.

 

it would have helped atari alot plus give them over seas help. and then taken the over seas knowledge to america and after the strugling 7800

 

Don't know. The Atari brand was never really strong in Japan to begin with. Where I think Nintendo could have helped was the in the area of games. The games they released were like nothing the US had ever seen before. Whether done on the 7800 or an Atari branded NES, stuff like Zelda, Super Mario etc, changed the world.

 

maybe wed all be playing atari game boxes. and super atari 9900s.

 

Possibly. One thing though: I am always skeptical about whether either an Atari branded NES or a 7800 released in 1984 would have had success by virtue of the fact that a lot of the retail stores in North America considered Atari to be the bastards that left them with millions of dollars worth of consoles and cartridges that they couldn't sell off or return to Atari.

 

To be successful, you have to have stores carrying your products. And a lot of big retailers (especially Sears) were pissed beyond words at Atari.

[Classic Pac]

Not to take away anything from all the fine words spoken but...

Atari would of kicked Nintendo's butt if it did come out in 1984. But let us not forget the main reason it didn't was because of the video game crash. A recent episode of Icons made that fact very clear.

[Ferris]

DracIsBack, I think you make some wonderful arguments. There are so many misconceptions and misnomers surrounding the 7800 that so many people just accept as pure fact. Thank you for pointing them out and presenting us with corrections.

 

One thing to remember is the "spirit" of the game company....

 

Look at the 2600 and its success the generation before. Part of this success was the imagination behind it. Think of it. Look at all of the advertisements for Star Raiders, Yar's Revenge, Asteroids, etc. Have you ever seen the theatrical released advertisement from Atari that ran before "The Empire Strikes Back" entitled "The Fly" ...Curt Vendel has it up on his site somewhere. It embodies this pure imagination that was the fuel Atari was running on at that time. Much like Disney, Atari sparked the imagination of great things to come... what life would be like in the future... and sucked gamers into a wonderful world of creative characters from Dig-Dug to Bentley Bear. Wonderful new vaporware products were announced which always kept Atari gamers excited, including the Cosmos, Mindlink, and other creative concepts.

 

In 1986, this had changed. Atari no longer had this spirit. It had been lost. There was nothing new and exciting coming out of Atari that would make consumers feel like Atari was "the wave of the future" or that would suck them into an enchanted world filled with wonderful Disney-esq characters.

 

However, Nintendo did. By 1988, Nintendo was gearing up many cool "wave of the future" products such as the Power Glove, Power Pad, and U-Force. They propagated on their lineup of Mario, Luigi, Donkey Kong, Link, Seamus, and other characters to create that same enchanted land that had once been Atari's territory. Nintendo included a nifty Light Gun that was well built and reliable, coupled with a simple shooter (Duck Hunt) in their bundle pack.

 

In 1988 Nintendo Power was one of the coolest magazines to have on the playground. In 1988 the kids who often bought Nintendo Power were hardly even alive when Atari Age (the magazine) was in publication. Atari had nothing to offer in terms of excitement. This hastened their struggle.

 

So what if the 7800 was capable of better graphics and more sprites... Atari never really did much to harness this power, so when all is said and done the two systems were graphically comparable. Nintendo seemed cutting edge, and the 7800 appeared to be a nifty game system that lacked imagination.

 

In 1988, Atari was like Disney without Mickey Mouse or a new movie coming out. Nintendo was like DreamWorks with Shrek or something else new and exciting.

 

This lead to the success of the NES and hardly anybody picks up on that.

 

 

Regards,

Justin

[jedijeff]

I understand what you're saying Ferris, but I would like to make the point that had the 7800 been released in '84 with all the GCC games and the big olympic advertising push it could have kept that creative spark alive. I was pretty impressed with the games when I bought my 7800 in 1987, and I can't see being less impressed 2 to 3 years earlier.

 

Jeff

[Ferris]

I understand what you're saying Ferris, but I would like to make the point that had the 7800 been released in '84 with all the GCC games and the big olympic advertising push it could have kept that creative spark alive. I was pretty impressed with the games when I bought my 7800 in 1987, and I can't see being less impressed 2 to 3 years earlier.

 

Jeff

 

 

Jeff - That is SO RIGHT ON!

 

Had Warner never sold off Atari to the extent that they did, and invested in the reinvention of the company through the 7800 and expandable hardware, this spirit WOULD have been kept alive and even built upon.

 

Atari under Warner would have had to have met a few criteria in order to pull off what they had done four years earlier, and what Nintendo would use to sieze the late 80's market.

 

 

Launch the 7800 ProSystem with COMPLETE product support - this includes retail support, AtariService support, customer assistance, proper advertising, an appropriate media blitz, and an enthusiastic presence on the market.

 

Launch ALL GCC developed peripherals, including the High Score Cartridge and the 7800 KeyBoard Computer add-on w/ enough software and peripherals to make this keyboard worth while.

 

CONTINUE to develop and market creative new peripherals which would take advantage of the 7800's capability. A LaserDisc attatchment was being discussed at one point. Atari Light Pens for educational use... arcade-style joysticks (think Neo-Geo) that could give you better control... a cool hand-held controller (NES Max) Atari DataGlove (PowerGlove) or anything that would have taken the gaming experience up a notch.

 

Further development of new games which could really take advantage of the 7800's power. The 7800 was NOT an underpowered game system. It had fury under that case that was hardly ever unleashed. Games that took forever to beat are the games that made the NES so popular. Classic arcade games are awesome, but dont leave out wonderful platform titles.

 

Get CREATIVE in Atari's propaganda. The Reintroduction of AtariAge magazine or an Atari Gamer's HotLine 1-800 number to call if you needed help with beating a game, etc. These are the small things that pushed Nintendo forward in the late 1980s and early 90's while others lacked. Even Neo-Geo had a hotline. There's no excuse for Atari not to have one.

 

Develop a "cast of characters" for Atari, maybe using Bentley Bear as Atari's Mario.

 

Harness the excitement that was once Atari's lifeline. Take advantage of the emotional capital that was already in place.

Why not "Star Raiders: Return to Epsilon IX" or some other interesting sequel to an Atari-owned classic. Don't just port over a tired old game, develop upon that title! You dont see the same old Metal Gear out every time a new system comes out, they reinvent it with a new mission. Star Raiders would have made for a great springboard for new titles. So would Tempest, Crystal Castles, etc.

 

Stop letting consumers down with cheap games, cheap equiptment, and a flood of unlicensed material being released onto the market. Consumers want to be treated with respect.

 

 

Had all these been met, the 7800 could have cleaned the slate for Atari and ushered in a new generation of gaming.

 

Justin

[Atariboy2600]

I feell like being in a PBS show "The Life Of Aatri 7800" all this talk about what if and all is so great but sad at the same time, think about it the 7800 was done and ready in 1984 the NES came to the US in 1985 and the rest of the state in 86 so that mean Atari was ahead of Nintendo by one and half to 2 years and they blew it BIG TIME. Had they release it in 84 as they should had been manybe just MAYBE thaey had a foot hold on the US market but like all of use 7800 fan 'We May Never Know'. I know we whould had love to see the 7800 or Atari still being big in ttodays video game world we live in right now untill Atari is edar in the US making a new console with great games and I do mean GREAT GAMES and under control with top US game makers and maybe have some of the old Atari workers maybe I'll be happy but untill then the only thing we can do is post "What if" on a Atari fan forums like I don't know say AtariAge Forums

[VidGameKing]

I feell like being in a PBS show "The Life Of Aatri 7800" all this talk about what if and all is so great but sad at the same time, think about it the 7800 was done and ready in 1984 the NES came to the US in 1985 and the rest of the state in 86 so that mean Atari was ahead of Nintendo by one and half to 2 years and they blew it BIG TIME. Had they release it in 84 as they should had been manybe just MAYBE thaey had a foot hold on the US market but like all of use 7800 fan 'We May Never Know'. I know we whould had love to see the 7800 or Atari still being big in ttodays video game world we live in right now untill Atari is edar in the US making a new console with great games and I do mean GREAT GAMES and under control with top US game makers and maybe have some of the old Atari workers maybe I'll be happy but untill then the only thing we can do is post "What if" on a Atari fan forums like I don't know say AtariAge Forums

 

I got the gist of what you were saying, but there are a few things that threw mw for a loop.

 

Anyways I agree with you.

[+wongojack]

Thanks for bumping this!

[VidGameKing]

Thanks for bumping this!

 

as if there would be some sort of problem bumping it?

 

Or, were you going to bump it, and couldn't get to it soon enough, and we did it before you and saved you the hassle?

[Bruce Tomlin]

I know we whould had love to see the 7800 or Atari still being big in ttodays video game world we live in right now untill Atari is edar in the US making a new console with great games and I do mean GREAT GAMES and under control with top US game makers and maybe have some of the old Atari workers maybe I'll be happy but untill then the only thing we can do is post "What if" on a Atari fan forums like I don't know say AtariAge Forums

But who were the top game makers for the NES? Lots of Japanese companies who probably never would have written games for the 7800 anyhow, even if Atari had the sense to release it in 1984. And who were the top game makers in the US? Atari, Activision, and a lot of companies who either went out of business or completely pulled out of the console video games market. And GCC, although most people didn't know who they were at the time. The crash did more than stop the development of new consoles.

 

After all, just look at how well the X-Box is doing in Japan. Over there, it's considered as nothing more than something you have to get to play DOA Beach Volleyball, and maybe Panzer Dragoon Orta. Would the 7800 have become the X-Box of its era? Or would Nintendo have decided to abandon the Famicom in favor of the 7800 hardware?

[Bruce Tomlin]

Launch ALL GCC developed peripherals, including the High Score Cartridge and the 7800 KeyBoard Computer add-on w/ enough software and peripherals to make this keyboard worth while.

The HSC, maybe. The keyboard, well, name me one console that had a successful attempt to add a keyboard to it. Colecovison/Adam? Nope. Intellivision? Nope. Astrocade? Nope. The XEGS? Nope. The O^2 was built with a keyboard, and didn't help it become a computer. Even the Dreamcast keyboard didn't get much use beyond ToTD. The C64 was successful as a computer because that's what it was supposed to be. That it played video games well was a bonus.

 CONTINUE to develop and market creative new peripherals which would take advantage of the 7800's capability. A LaserDisc attatchment was being discussed at one point. Atari Light Pens for educational use... arcade-style joysticks (think Neo-Geo) that could give you better control... a cool hand-held controller (NES Max) Atari DataGlove (PowerGlove) or anything that would have taken the gaming experience up a notch.

More expensive equipment that would never have taken off. Laserdisc was pretty near a failure because of its cost. In the end it only succeeded as a Home Theatre format. It didn't help that it cost $8 just to manufacture a disc, and that most players were over $500. As for using it with games, look at how successful the Laseractive/MD-ROM was't.

 

And how many games were really usable with the PowerGlove? Aside from the cool factor that kids love, was it really a useful controller?

 Get CREATIVE in Atari's propaganda. The Reintroduction of AtariAge magazine or an Atari Gamer's HotLine 1-800 number to call if you needed help with beating a game, etc. These are the small things that pushed Nintendo forward in the late 1980s and early 90's while others lacked. Even Neo-Geo had a hotline. There's no excuse for Atari not to have one.

That would have been a good thing. It's called "building a brand", and why those "remember your roots" T-shirts have an NES controller on them, not a CX-20.

[atariepd]

 

Spoiler

Meet Wocket Wildcat, Atari's newest mascot. Created in 1986, Wocket will become Atari's most popular & beloved character of all time. He's a orange wildcat with white gloves, red and white shirt with a red paw symbol, and black sneakers. Inspired by Michael Jackson, Wocket has his " cool rebel kid" or a manchild who's not just wild and chaotic, but also kind and honest. His first Wocket Wildcat will become the system top seller and have two sequels on the 7800. The games will help 7800 reach 10 Million Unit sold, of course it didn't do completely on its own but it was a major reason why it did well on both North American & Europe. Sometime it's fun to imagine what could have been if you were put in charge of a company, I choose Atari.