Game Creators Please Read

[Junie]

As you may already know I am setting up a publishing company for game creators, if not look at my main page of my site for details My Website

 

Well I am trying to figure out exactly what Homebrewers want. I am close to going "live" with everything and want everone's ideas about the services I offer.

 

For starters the biggest question.. If I actually go "live" with my services does anyone actually plan to use my services, or do you simply prefer to do everything yourself?

 

Ok, now to some actual service type questions.

 

I offer items printed by a commercial printing service. For example manuals, labels, and boxes. For them to do anything they want a minimum order of about 200 items done, 200 manuals or whatever you want done.

 

If you get 200 manuals done, with a total of 8 manual pages (Front cover - 6 pages - Back cover) per manual, done in 2 Offset Colors (Black/Red - Or Black and whatever) the total price is estimated at $110. That makes each manual $0.55 each. The price includes them cutting the paper to the standard Atari manual size 7 1/2" wide x 10" long, and also stapling the manual with 2 staples in the center.

 

If you want more than 2 colors that will raise the total price $20.00 for each color added. If you order more than 200 manuals the price pre manual does go down.

 

Now the question does anyone want their manuals printed at that price? Or even better, does anyone have the money to order 200 at a time for the total of $110 in 2 color?

 

I can also do Color Laser printing which isn't much of a option, the price is the same for 1 manual or 200 or more. The price is $4.10 and that does not include cutting or stapling..

 

Game boxes minimum order amount is 500 at a time, price is not available currently. The boxes are custom cut to the exact size of the Atari box, all I have to do is fold on the preforated edges and glue one side and close the box ends.

 

A idea is to get a order of generic boxes with basic information, then when you want to order boxes your box image, game name, etc. are printed on a label and that is applied to the front side of the box. If you want another label, it is applied to the back side of the box.

 

Is anyone interested in ordering boxes like I described? They are done professionally, but labels are applied instead of printing onto the box itself.

 

For the box labels, a minimum order of 200 would be required before they could be done by the printing service.(That is 200 front labels and if you want back labels, 200 of them as well).

 

Now for game case labels, again a order of 200 minimum is required. Front labels cut to size and printed in 2 color is $0.45 per label or total price is $90.00 The end label would be about $0.30 each or total price $60.00 Once again add $20.00 to the total price for each new color used.

 

So for both labels for a game case you are looking about $0.75, per game.

 

New custom PCB's with programmed EPROM's and Hex Inverter everything soldered ready to go, is about $5.00 each for 4K games. Or $8.00 for 8K game or larger (This includes programmed EPROM, Hex Inverter, Bankswitching chips, soldered all ready to go).

 

Here is the bottom line if you want 200 completed games created of your new game it will about about $20 - $25 per game.

 

For the completed game price you get..

- New PCBs

- Programmed EPROMs

- Other necessary chips

- Everything soldered

- Reused game case

- Offset 2 color printed case labels (cut)

- Everything assemblyed and tested

 

- Offset 2 color printed manuals, 8 manual pages (Cut/stapled)

 

- New box cut to Atari size with 2 color Offset printed labels

- Completed Game in case and manual placed inside the box

- The box shrink wrapped

 

So you get the list mentioned above, estimated for about $20 - $25 for 200. Or the total price of $4,000 - $5,000 US dollars.

 

Now back to the original question, who has this kind of money to get their game done? Now if any game author has this kind of money to put in their games that is great, disreguard the rest of the message. I bet only a very few only have this kind of money to invest in their game.

 

If I can find a way to get the manuals and labels printed in smaller quantities for example whenever you sell a game, or if you have me sell it, print up 1 set-- then my serivces might have a chance, for example You wouldn't have to come up with the money, when a game is sold the money is used to get the necessary items printed.

 

So I guess the quest still continues for my publishing services. I need to find a commercial service to get small quantites done, or a way to do it whenever a game is sold.

 

Now for a way to do it whenever a game is sold, ideas are to get the manual and labels printed using Color Laser printer (a.k.a Color Copier)-- but that cost about $1.00 a sheet, one side. So that is to expensive. That would make a 8 page manual as mentioned above about $4.00, and that is to expensive for only one manual, right?!

 

If the game could be actually sold for about $35.00 or more a game, to the actual people buying games then I am set and games can be made in quantities of only 1-- the game that was sold.

 

The bottom line question...... Would you buy a new Homebrewed Atari 2600 game shrink wrapped in a custom cut Atari style box with manual for about $35.00??

[Junie]

Just to let everyone know, I am not giving up on my publishing services by no means. I will continue searching and coming up with new ideas. (I kind of left the above message sounding like I give up, which isn't the case)

 

I also looked at Hover Video at the prices of games. It has made me think perhaps the games can be effectively produced one at a time after all.

 

There are many games there with a $25 price tag for example Dark Mage and Thrust. Now if I am not mistaken, for $25 you only get the game. It does mention something about "Docs included", is this a manual or simply a file e-mailed to you or what?

 

So if I was able to create games with full-color on all the labels and manual (everything cut to Atari size) and the game was in a new box cut to Atari size and style shrink wrapped for $25 - $35 would that be something you would buy? The $25 - $35 price is a rough estimate with a added possiable author profit "royalty".

 

Of course if you get rid of the box, it would be about $15 - $20 including a printed manual. Without the box and manual about $10 - $15.

 

After laying out the prices this way, yes it is possiable The prices would be the same or cheaper then Hozer starting off for a Homebrewed game.

 

Hmm, what does everyone think of the above prices? The prices are for Color Laser printing, full-color, one game at a time.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Junie:

[QB]There are many games there with a $25 price tag for example Dark Mage and Thrust.

---

 

I don't know about Dark Mage, but Thrust is more expensive because it is a 16K game, all other games are 4K only. It's seems to be much more expensive to produce carts larger than 4K.

 

Included in all some prices is a $5 royalty for the programmer.

 

quote

Now if I am not mistaken, for $25 you only get the game. It does mention something about "Docs included", is this a manual or simply a file e-mailed to you or what?

 

It's a simple manual (black on coloured paper).

 

quote:

---

Without the box and manual about $10 - $15.

 

The prices would be the same or cheaper then Hozer starting off for a Homebrewed game.

---

 

That matches the $11 price of Hozer for non-royality 4K games (including the manual, but with simplier ink-jet label) quite exactly. So you wouldn't be cheaper.

[Junie]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thomas Jentzsch:

I don't know about Dark Mage, but Thrust is more expensive because it is a 16K game, all other games are 4K only. It's seems to be much more expensive to produce carts larger than 4K..

---

 

One thing about that, I get my 16K PCB's from the same place Hozer does, and they cost the same as a 4K or 8K game PCB's. The PCB's even come with all the needed chips for the same price, so I'm not sure why the higer mark-up myself.

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thomas Jentzsch:

It's a simple manual (black on coloured paper).

---

 

Sure for the $10 - $15 range, I could include a simple black and white manual. Only costs $0.40 to make

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thomas Jentzsch:

That matches the $11 price of Hozer for non-royality 4K games (including the manual, but with simplier ink-jet label) quite exactly. So you wouldn't be cheaper.

---

 

Nope. For 4K - 16K games I could do them with a $5 royality and a black and white manual with a Color Laser printed labels for $10 - $15.

 

In other words for the Dark Mage or Thrust Hozer sells for $25, I could sell for $10 - $15.

 

[ 12-04-2001: Message edited by: Junie ]

[Joel D. Park]

Junie, I'm just getting your estimate, it sounds like you've done a ton of research on this and it's going to be great for the homebrew communitiy.

 

In my case, I would probably prefer to do the Labels and Manuals myself. I would only want the Carts made. Say:

 

How much would 50 Carts, burnt with my binary without labels, boxes or manuals cost. Or would it even be possible to do a batch as small as 50 ?? If not 50 how about 100.

 

Thanks,

Joel D. Park

[Paul Slocum]

Honestly, right now I'm planning on going with Hozer Video. Randy takes care of the orders and shipping which saves me more time and really makes $11 a bargain. I would consider the board w/ EPROM deal, except that I don't want to mess with shipping anymore.

 

I am thinking about upgrading the label quality, though. I'm considering using an online bumper sticker printer to get my labels done. Looks like they'll cost $3 a piece 300dpi full color, and they should be about as durable as you can get.

 

I've been just printing my manuals on nice-looking card stock from Kinko's using a good ink jet. Probably costs about $1 when you consider the ink cartridges.

 

I don't really expect to sell anything close to 200 cartridges. Counting current orders, I've only sold about 20 Testcarts in four months. I expect to sell more of my Synthcart and Marble Craze game, but probably not more than 50.

 

-Paul

[HozerVideo]

Speaking for Hozer Video Games (that's me!) I can add a few comments to this thread. First off, this joker didn't know anything about carts when he first arrived on the scene. He wanted to know if I wanted to have my games made at some sweat shop in Asia! He didn't know where to buy chips until I told him where. He didn't know anything about making games. He isn't going to be making them himself, he is going to sweat shop them out. Just so you all know that.

 

I have been making homebrews since 1984, thank you very much. I have spent hundreds of my own money in research, designs, and other avenues, always working on ways to make games better and cheaper. This joker comes along and is capitalizing on that. Anyone who buys a game from me also knows I include a schematic on how to build a cart, which I also post on my site (and have e-mailed to this guy) so it's not like I try to keep it a secret. Geeze. I am a true classic gamer, owning hundreds and hundreds of carts. This guy just wants to make fast bucks.

 

I am sure he can get his sweat shop labor to make the carts slicker and cheaper than I can. If that's what people want, they are welcome to it. I have to lay out hundreds of bucks in boards and chips all at once, money I don't get a return on for sometimes over a year. That is how I manage to make a 4K cart here and a pair of 16K carts there. Or even 50/100 at a time for a new release. I keep books on the expenses of doing this, and some years it has been pretty far in the red.

 

This guy isn't doing the homebrew community any favors.

 

Randy

[Joel D. Park]

Randy,

 

Though I have no games planned for release any time soon, I would still rather send you my business, but I always feel guilty about any orders I make (I just made a big one today) because I know you do all the work yourself, by hand. Are you overwhelmed by the amount of orders you get or do you keep up easily???

 

I always felt that your time at Hozer was more of a donation and I don't want to take advantage.

[maximebeauvais]

I think that if this joker want to make some $$ he will find out that atari 2600 is pretty expensive and it take some time to build.

 

He will find out that this is not a way to make fast $$$

 

I will prefer to deal with Hozervideo because this guy know is stuff and he is not going this for the $$ (I think!!!) but to help other people to have a dream come true.

 

I'm planning to do an atari 2600 game (I'm still learning programming) and if I don't have the money and buy a burner I will appreciate if HV could be the one who build the game for me.

 

my 2 cents....

[ubersaurus]

I'm also not big on the idea of my game carts dying after a decade or two. It seems like I'm gyping people to sell them something like that. But then, no one I'm aware of can afford a ROM burner. So I don't know how I'm gonna get my game out there. Though I think my initial effort will be using the cuttle cart's extra RAM space to see if I can do a better translation of an old old game. Which of course, means, it won't be sold, except maybe on cds for all the owners of the thing, and that would be rather inexpensive, and simple to do, and collectable

[Arcadenut]

quote:

---

Originally posted by ubersaurus:

I'm also not big on the idea of my game carts dying after a decade or two. It seems like I'm gyping people to sell them something like that. But then, no one I'm aware of can afford a ROM burner. So I don't know how I'm gonna get my game out there. Though I think my initial effort will be using the cuttle cart's extra RAM space to see if I can do a better translation of an old old game. Which of course, means, it won't be sold, except maybe on cds for all the owners of the thing, and that would be rather inexpensive, and simple to do, and collectable

---

 

I really don't understand this paranoia about EPROMS. I have 30+ Arcade Games (23 Cabinets), 99% of them use EPROMS. Most are 15 - 20 years old. How many bad EPROMS have I seen? ONE.

 

I have an Atari 2600 Cart (Mountain King)that is a ROM and its dead. So as far as I can tell, they are about equal as far as reliablity.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

quote:

---

Originally posted by HozerVideo:

This guy isn't doing the homebrew community any favors.

---

 

Randy is selling my games for over a year now, and I had no problems with him at all. I'll stay with him

 

He is definitely doing the community a very BIG favour!

[King Asmo]

But Randy, why don't you tell us all how you really feel?

 

Just kidding. All in seriousness, tho, although I've never ordered any carts from you, I always have appreciated what you're doing for the classic gaming community. I'm thankful for people like you, and for people like Alex and Albert, who give back more to the classic gaming community than they take. It's what makes this hobby so much fun.

 

[ 12-04-2001: Message edited by: King_Asmo ]

[Junie]

quote:

---

Originally posted by HozerVideo:

Speaking for Hozer Video Games (that's me!) I can add a few comments to this thread. First off, this joker didn't know anything about carts when he first arrived on the scene. He wanted to know if I wanted to have my games made at some sweat shop in Asia! He didn't know where to buy chips until I told him where. He didn't know anything about making games. He isn't going to be making them himself, he is going to sweat shop them out. Just so you all know that.

 

This guy isn't doing the homebrew community any favors.

 

Randy

---

 

I am not sure what is going on here with you Randy. I have never contacted you about where to buy chips (I found this out by a fellow Homebrewer Chuck Gill) or if you wanted your games made in Asia.

 

Perhaps you have me confused with someone else or you are simply trying to attack me with nonsense. My name is Tom Cosby JR. and I don't have anything to do with sweat shops, everything is done be me and fellow Atarians.

 

If anyone belevies this sweat shop stuff or whatever else Randy is going on about, visit my website for actual information.

 

- I get the materials printed here locally in my hometown, in Indiana.

- I get my PCB's from Joe Grand and Chris Wilkson

- EPROM's are programmed by Chris Wilkson and Chuck Gill

 

Goto my website for a more complete list of the fellow Atarians who make up my Team that creates these services.

 

As far as I am not doing the Atari community and favors, that is up to them. I am simply providing services that you or no one else offers.

 

This includes actual Atari sized and cut boxes, done here locally. Color Laser-- Full-Color printed Manuals, and Full-Color printed labels.

 

So I am not sure why I am under attack, I personally never have talked negitave about you or your services. As a matter of fact I even include a link to yuor services from my website. I also don't like getting attacked for no reason.

 

I am not sure why you don't like any frendly compitetion. If you already think I offer services you don't, and my items at lower costs-- Wait, I will offer even more services (Including Brand New game cases soon) and I will lower my prices even more

 

No, I am not in it for the money. If I was I would offer 16K games at the same price as you or higher. 4K games, 8K games, 16K games, and 32K games cost the same to make. Or if I was in it for the money I would choose a much more profitable business.

 

I am simply in it to provide game creators a option to your services, and to offer services you do not.

[mos6507]

<<

So if I was able to create games with full-color on all the labels and manual (everything cut to Atari size) and the game was in a new box cut to Atari size and style shrink wrapped for $25 - $35 would that be something you would buy? The $25 - $35 price is a rough estimate with a added possiable author profit "royalty".

>>

 

I'd like to see fancier packaging. It remains to be seen how affordable this can be, though.

 

I also think every homebrewer has their own idea as to what style of packaging they'd like. In my case, I'd like to have a recreation of the 1st gen Atari foil labels, so if you come up with a fancy solution, you are likely only going to offer one variety of labels and box. It would be hard to offer something custom for each homebrewer.

[Junie]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Glenn Saunders:

I'd like to see fancier packaging. It remains to be seen how affordable this can be, though.

 

I also think every homebrewer has their own idea as to what style of packaging they'd like. In my case, I'd like to have a recreation of the 1st gen Atari foil labels, so if you come up with a fancy solution, you are likely only going to offer one variety of labels and box. It would be hard to offer something custom for each homebrewer.

---

 

I understand seeing is beleving, I hope to have pictures of everything coming up. Of course when I have the pictures, I will know the actual prices because I had them made

 

For the foil labels since you mentioned it to me before (In a previous post) I have found a place that sells the material. I hope to have more information and pictures of the foil labels soon as well.

 

I do plan to offer many different box styles and label types. At first I will offer only one, then as time progresses I offer even more.

 

With everyone it seems in a uproar over everything I may try to bring many variations online at once to show everyone they actually have choices.

 

I aim to please

[StanJr]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thomas Jentzsch:

Randy is selling my games for over a year now, and I had no problems with him at all. I'll stay with him

He is definitely doing the community a very

BIG

favour!

---

 

Excuse me, but with this kind of attitude it seems to me that Hozer Video is not doing anybody any favors at all. I'm out of the homebrew business for sure now, I don't want to put up with this nonsense. I thought Atari was about fun and people helping each other, my bad. I guess its just like the real world, selfishness and ruthlessness rule. I think Junie is trying really hard to provide a service currently monopolized by Hozer. I have seen NO evidence of any foul play by Junie, only good old fashioned enthusiasm and drive. Hozer's post here, however, sours my taste for them regardless of the quality of their product. There is a much better way to go about engaging the competition.

 

Depressed now, Stan

[Cybergoth]

Uhm... before everything is falling into pieces here...

 

It might be a bit far off, but could it possibly be that Randy just mixed up Junie (junies_c@yahoo.com) with braves4515@aol.com ?!?

 

Greetings,

Manuel

[Junie]

quote:

---

Originally posted by StanJr:

Excuse me, but with this kind of attitude it seems to me that Hozer Video is not doing anybody any favors at all. I'm out of the homebrew business for sure now, I don't want to put up with this nonsense. I thought Atari was about fun and people helping each other, my bad. I guess its just like the real world, selfishness and ruthlessness rule. I think Junie is trying really hard to provide a service currently monopolized by Hozer. I have seen NO evidence of any foul play by Junie, only good old fashioned enthusiasm and drive. Hozer's post here, however, sours my taste for them regardless of the quality of their product. There is a much better way to go about engaging the competition.

 

Depressed now, Stan

 

 

---

 

Thank you for taking a look at everything fairly, I appreciate it.

 

My publishing services are made from "recruited" fellow Atarians who become part of my Team to offer these services. So far there is a total of 10 fellow Atarians, counting me. We have formed together to offer the standard services and services not available.

 

Hopefully all this bickering will subside and the actual Homebrewed services will speak for themselves.

 

I never thought when I mentioned my prices that anything like this would happen. I will do my best to remain from aggravating the suituation.

 

I just hope the unnecessary bickering has not turned any game authors off to creating games prementely. The bottom line is the services are for game authors, not to create money. Without game authors the services will die and the Atari 2600 will become nothing more than a old game system.

 

Personally I want to see more games created, and new game authors creating games. This will bring back more fun to the Atari 2600, more games. Hopefully I can be a part of that.

[ubersaurus]

I'm personally just lookin for a good source of PCBs and stuff. I was planning on putting them out myself. If I can find a publishing service I deem acceptable to take over after the initial run (ebivision style) then I'll be happy.

[Junie]

quote:

---

Originally posted by ubersaurus:

I'm personally just lookin for a good source of PCBs and stuff. I was planning on putting them out myself. If I can find a publishing service I deem acceptable to take over after the initial run (ebivision style) then I'll be happy.

---

 

Without trying sound like I am really pushing my services..

 

I do offer individual products for sell. If you want blank PCB's, PCB's ready to go, or a complete publishing service I offer all that-- and hopefully will take orders soon.

 

I offer many publishing packages or individual services, you decide what services you need. The more services you choose the lower the prices.

 

My package deals include--

 

- Completed PCB's

- Completed PCB's in cases without labels

- Completed PCB's in cases with labels

- Completed Games and manuals

- Completed Games and manuals boxed

 

Of course look at Hozer Video's services before any selection is made.

[ubersaurus]

Nothing to worry about for several months, I assure you ;p

[Thomas Jentzsch]

What is happening here???

 

Now I am totally confused. Is this all caused by a big misunderstanding?

 

Please help me! This must be the reason, or else, something is completely getting wrong in this community.

[liveinabin]

Hey everyone - it's christmas!!!!

We all love Atari (I more than most today after having to use an intellivision controller earlier - I really wanted to kill en masse after that!) and I don't think anyone is stepping on anyones toes here.

We all need to watch 'Its a Wonderful Life' and then play Kaboom!

works for me

[Junie]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thomas Jentzsch:

What is happening here???

 

Now I am totally confused. Is this all caused by a big misunderstanding?

 

Please help me! This

must

be the reason, or else, something is completely getting wrong in this community.

 

---

 

I have no idea. I went to bed this thread had three posts, I wake up and it has 16 and most of which are attacks against me.

 

I would like to know what is going on, I simply named my prices and then this all happened. Randy said some stuff that is incorrect about me, I am not sure if he has me confused or is attacking me simply because of my services.

 

Of course many other people joined in on the attack against me, for reasons unknown. I am not making a list or anything, but if anyone decides to use my services after all you can and will be treated just as well as anyone else.

 

Now hopefully all of this will stop and we can get back to being a community, helping another fellow Atarian by another.