Anyone thirsty for some PoP?

[Thomas Jentzsch]

It's one cycle early, but 1 cycle = 3 pixels.  PF1 ends at pixel 144; cycle 70.667 - so cycle 69 is 1.667 cycles before the edge of our playing area; 1.667 cycles = 5 pixels.  Assuming that writes to COLUP1 take place immediately, which I think they do; though I can't remember.

You are right, that's 1 cycle not one pixel. But AFAIK all writes are delayed by ~2 pixels.

 

Erm, I think I'm slow this morning - can you run that by me again?

I meant, we can have two different colors in each row, and by using the missiles and sprite priorities, we can even mix those colors a little bit.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

Free? No. But I own DeBabelizer which can handle that kind of stuff via scripting. As with any image downsampling' date=' it would still require considerable tweaking to work.

I'd be willing to try and help out, except for one thing, I don't have any sprite images from the game,...[/quote']

Attached!

 

Hellooooo' date=' resident Atari homebrew artist here! Unless our coders are opposed to it, I'd really like to do all art myself. [/quote']

I wouldn't mind a little competition between two very talented designers.

kid.zip

[vdub_bobby]

It's one cycle early, but 1 cycle = 3 pixels.  PF1 ends at pixel 144; cycle 70.667 - so cycle 69 is 1.667 cycles before the edge of our playing area; 1.667 cycles = 5 pixels.  Assuming that writes to COLUP1 take place immediately, which I think they do; though I can't remember.

You are right, that's 1 cycle not one pixel. But AFAIK all writes are delayed by ~2 pixels.

Guess I should actually sit down at my box and type the code in and see what it looks like

[vdub_bobby]

Guess I should actually sit down at my box and type the code in and see what it looks like

It is 5 pixels.

[+Nathan Strum]

Attached!

 

Okay, I'll take a look-see at it.

 

I wouldn't mind a little competition between two very talented designers.

 

I just don't want to step on anybody's toes.

[+Nathan Strum]

The maximum values I found for the prince are 51 (width) and 57 (height). With the factor of 2.67 this would result into ~19x21 (double width) pixel.  

 

For the width we would need both sprites and missiles (=18 pixel). This works nice as long as there is no guard in the same floor.

 

Well, I've read and re-read the sprite posts, and I'm still not quite sure what the parameters are supposed to be. What should I be aiming for, in general? Maximum 19 tall x 8 wide? Double width? Single width? Is the sword is a separate object? And how long/tall/whatever can the sword be?

[salstadt]

Do you know any free tools which could convert the original animations at least semi-automatically?

 

That's effectively what I'd be doing. You can actually do this prety easily in Photoshop, although obviously alteratons would still be necessary for the character to 'read' well while moving. In a still image you ight see an arm and a leg, but once everything's moving it gets a little more complicated to have everything make sense, not strobe or halt, etc.

 

- Adam

[salstadt]

"I just don't want to step on anybody's toes."

 

If you want to take it over, go ahead, although I think debabelized conversions are going to look awfully mucky. As this project is getting further and further from what I envisioned, maybe it's a good time for me to step down anyway. Converting and cleaning rotoscopes isn't that interesting to me, to be honest. So if Nathan feels like assuming the art position, feel free.

 

- Adam

[salstadt]

"I wouldn't mind a little competition between two very talented designers. "

 

Not interested. I don't really have the time to make art that may or may not be used. So I have no problem just handing the project over to someone else, which probably makes the most sense right now since my free time is already scarce due to other obligations.

 

- Adam

[Albert]

I just wanted to pipe in here and say that it's been fascinating reading (and viewing) this thread, and that I hope this becomes a full-fledged game someday! Not sure I would call it Prince of Persia, given that is a pretty active and visible property these days, but obviously that isn't the most important issue at the moment.

 

Keep up the great work, everyone!

 

..Al

[Cybergoth]

Hi there!

 

Not sure I would call it Prince of Persia, given that is a pretty active and visible property these days, but obviously that isn't the most important issue at the moment.

 

Hm... I think an engine like that could probably do "Antiriad" as well, so maybe that was a "safer" alternative...

 

Greetings,

Manuel

[Thomas Jentzsch]

If you want to take it over, go ahead, although I think debabelized conversions are going to look awfully mucky. As this project is getting further and further from what I envisioned, maybe it's a good time for me to step down anyway. Converting and cleaning rotoscopes isn't that interesting to me, to be honest. So if Nathan feels like assuming the art position, feel free.

My English is far from perfect, but it seems that you are a bit annoyed. Please don't.

 

Why don't you just offer your set of animations? As I said above, it should be no problem to make two different carts. One trying to be as close as possible to the original and one using your comic style and a different level layout.

[salstadt]

No, I'm not annoyed. Sorry if it came off that way. Maybe a little disappointed, but that's not because of anyone in particular, just the fact that the project has evolved into something else, albeit something that looks very promising so far. I think I'd envisioned more of an Atari recreation in the spirit of the PoP games than an actual port. I think the idea of two prince games right now might be a little redundant, so I'd be hesitant to work on that. Maybe a similar original puzzle platformer down the road might be nice.

 

Good luck, all!

 

- Adam

[vdub_bobby]

My new kernel; not a lot of changes: tightened up in-kernel repositioning code, now using missile as extra player pixel for both players. Also tried to come up with some better looking torches

 

Still flickering ball for sword, though it only shows up for one of 'em in the screenshot.

pop2lk.zip

[kisrael]

It's an interesting philisophical problem:

 

One idea is iconic, and truer to how a 2600 programmer would've done in back in the day, with tight ROM resources especially.

 

The other idea is to push the Atari as far as it can go in capturing the same rotoscoped look as the original.

 

It's a toughie, which is why I think some people tried to prematurely suggest easteregging...

[Thomas Jentzsch]

Well, I've read and re-read the sprite posts, and I'm still not quite sure what the parameters are supposed to be. What should I be aiming for, in general? Maximum 19 tall x 8 wide? Double width? Single width?

Currently it looks like single width is possible, as long as you accept some flicker during the fights and when there are other objects on the same floor. I am not sure if we should go that way or if we should avoid flicker.

 

The maximum single pixel width would be 18 pixel (jumping prince, a few pixels more with some rather complicated tricks), the maximum height I found would result into about 20 pixels (53/2.67).

 

If you want to try double width, then you have only 9 pixels horizontally.

 

Is the sword is a separate object? And how long/tall/whatever can the sword be?

Yup, the sword is a separate object. The height is infinite, the width too, but with some restrictions:

- there can be only one sword "section" on each scanline

- each section can only consist out of 1, 2, 4 or 8 pixels (all enabled)

- between each scanline, the section position can be moved +7/-8 pixel (relative to the leftmost pixel)

- the sword has the color of the playfield scanline it is displayed on (currently blue)

- to display two swords, they have to flicker.

 

If it is still unclear, please don't be afraid to ask again. I know I am not very good in explaining technical stuff.

[vdub_bobby]

Well, I've read and re-read the sprite posts, and I'm still not quite sure what the parameters are supposed to be. What should I be aiming for, in general? Maximum 19 tall x 8 wide? Double width? Single width?

Currently it looks like single width is possible, as long as you accept some flicker during the fights and when there are other objects on the same floor. I am not sure if we should go that way or if we should avoid flicker.

By 18 pixels I assume you mean combining both players with both missiles for each sprite?

 

Why not just go single-width pixels, using 1 player (+ missile) for each sprite? I think if you use sprites that wide than the ratio of sprite width to screen width is goofy. 16-18 pixel width of sprite vs. 128-pixel width of screen is ~1:8, original screen shots look more like half that, ~1:16.

 

Or, let me quote someone from earlier in the thread...

Since the used 2600 screen is 128 pixel wide, the vertical (using a 2LK)and horizontal factors are 2.5 each. So the screen should be about 75 pixels tall, with the Prince being 8 single width (or 4 double width) x 16 pixel.

 

Anyway, my opinion is for single-width, player+missile, 8-12 pixel width sprites. This gives you a good horizontal ratio and you can probably avoid all player flicker.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

By 18 pixels I assume you mean combining both players with both missiles for each sprite?

Yup.

 

I think if you use sprites that wide than the ratio of sprite width to screen width is goofy.  16-18 pixel width of sprite vs. 128-pixel width of screen is ~1:8, original screen shots look more like half that, ~1:16.  

That's right, but when the Prince jumps, then you need more pixels. That's where my 18 pixels come from.

 

The original screen is 320 pixels wide and a jumping Prince is about 50 pixel wide (320/50 ~= 120/18 ).

[vdub_bobby]

That's right' date=' but when the Prince jumps, then you need more pixels. That's where my 18 pixels come from.

 

The original screen is 320 pixels wide and a jumping Prince is about 50 pixel wide (320/50 ~= 120/18 ).[/quote']

Gotcha.

 

Here's my latest 'n' greatest: Added the running animation that Adam posted earlier; also, I animated the torches. Nothing earthshattering, but kinda fun

pop2lk.zip

[Thomas Jentzsch]

Cute!

 

Your kernel seems to have problems when moving the player at the very top or bottom. I suppose those should be easy to fix.

[pmpddytim]

I really dig Adams work on this so far. I hope he stays in it.

 

I think the Roto graphics are cool, but I like that old school feel Adams art has to it too.

 

As some have stated before I would also vote for (if I had a vote ) both styles. Could you use one of the difficulty switches to select between different art styles? I'm clueless when it comes to programming so I'm just throwing out bones here.

 

-Tim

[vdub_bobby]

Cute!

 

Your kernel seems to have problems when moving the player at the very top or bottom. I suppose those should be easy to fix.

Bah! I didn't even notice . Yeah, not hard to fix. Just cuz I copied Adam's animation exactly, complete with all the blank space overhead; so each frame has around 5 lines of blank space above it, which means the player moves off the screen (upwards) before he appears to. If that makes any sense.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

Could you use one of the difficulty switches to select between different art styles?

Since the animations require a major part of the ROM, this would only work if we have 64k boards available for production.

 

Two 32k carts would be no problem.

[retrocon]

Wow, this is an amazing thread. Please keep this going.

 

I would be an incredible shame to reject salstadt's work. How often do you get an offer from an artist of his caliber to hand-craft 400+ of pixelly smooth animation? Especially since he is the one that started this whole thread going. I would expect his work to end up being much superior to babalized versions of the original artwork.

 

But... Since there are two kernel versions being built anyway, why not built two complete versions, with two completely separate carts for sale? Of course anyone that has read this thread would have to own both!

 

One could be called Prince of Persia, Authentic Edition (Jentzsch+Babalizer)

 

And the other perhaps Prince of Persia, Retro Edition (vdub_bobby+salstadt).

 

There would be a friendly competition between the two, but with much shared as well. At some point though the two would diverge with one in favor of authenticity and the other in favor of fun and the "Atari Way".

 

Both would be spectacular no doubt, but I can already bet on which one I'd prefer to play! What do you think?

[Out_of_Gas]

only 1 way

ATARI WAY!